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  1. #1

    I really hope that you won't be able to upgrade TF items.

    Thunderforged items were a terrible idea to begin with, causing even MORE gear disparities between 10 and 25 man. Its wasnt nacessary to have a higher TF drop rate in 25 man raids (10% vs 25%), because they already get a higher chance for TF items, since 25 mans drop more items (2 vs 6). So this causes them to double dip... higher TF drop chance + more items.

    I always monitor people who play the same classes as me, but are in more progressed guilds... the first thing you notice is item level of 520 vs 530+ on some of them. One solution to fix this, could be, that you wont be able to upgrade your TF items, but rather let your normal or heroic item be upgradable to TF quality.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  2. #2

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Thunderforged items were a terrible idea to begin with, causing even MORE gear disparities between 10 and 25 man. Its wasnt nacessary to have a higher TF drop rate in 25 man raids (10% vs 25%), because they already get a higher chance for TF items, since 25 mans drop more items (2 vs 6). So this causes them to double dip... higher TF drop chance + more items.

    I always monitor people who play the same classes as me, but are in more progressed guilds... the first thing you notice is item level of 520 vs 530+ on some of them. One solution to fix this, could be, that you wont be able to upgrade your TF items, but rather let your normal or heroic item be upgradable to TF quality.
    Well 1st, if you dont like higher chance for thinderforged to drop in 25man, then stop playing in 10man...
    Higher the cance yes, but in 25man u have 25man in 10man u have 10man, so for some items even more then 3x ppl are /rolling. If you have 4melee class chances are all will go for it, what if agility leather drops? Assuming you 2 rogues, 2 druids ( guardian + feral ) and lets say monk thats 5 ppl..

    Well wrong. Ppl start with same gear, better guilds kill bosses faster ( on HC at least ) so they get better gear faster. How do you plan on fixing that? 90% of guilds havent even killed 12/12 yet alone one on HC, those that have 530+ have killed. Tell me how do you plan on fixing that? assuming thattop guild entered ToT full HC geared ( and thats not hard considering weeks that had ), thay will have ilvl of about 509 ( if they dont upgrade ) so when ToT starts its EZ to have more then 520+ in 2 weeks, and killing on HC would take tem to 530+ fast,,,

    But i dont see any problem in upgrading thunderforged items, just make it 2x expensive...

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    Well 1st, if you dont like higher chance for thinderforged to drop in 25man, then stop playing in 10man...
    Higher the cance yes, but in 25man u have 25man in 10man u have 10man, so for some items even more then 3x ppl are /rolling. If you have 4melee class chances are all will go for it, what if agility leather drops? Assuming you 2 rogues, 2 druids ( guardian + feral ) and lets say monk thats 5 ppl..

    Well wrong. Ppl start with same gear, better guilds kill bosses faster ( on HC at least ) so they get better gear faster. How do you plan on fixing that? 90% of guilds havent even killed 12/12 yet alone one on HC, those that have 530+ have killed. Tell me how do you plan on fixing that? assuming thattop guild entered ToT full HC geared ( and thats not hard considering weeks that had ), thay will have ilvl of about 509 ( if they dont upgrade ) so when ToT starts its EZ to have more then 520+ in 2 weeks, and killing on HC would take tem to 530+ fast,,,

    But i dont see any problem in upgrading thunderforged items, just make it 2x expensive...
    Well, first, this is a retarded "argument", if you could even call it one. I fully understand that a 25 man raid has more people than a 10 one, and therefor gets more loot... talking 3x and NOT 2,5x the loot 10 mans get. The point was 25 man raids double dipping on TF items because of 1.) higher drop chance (25% vs 10%) and 2.) more loot (6 vs 2 items) - so you have 2x the chance of 10% to get a TF item, compared to 6x the chance of 25%(!) in 20 mans.

    So, 25 mans end up gearing redicilously faster than 10 mans do... this will hurt in the long run and shouldnt exist in the current form of the game. And it doesnt matter that better guilds kill more bosses faster, because this isnt part of the discussion and it kind of supports my argument anyways. :>

    I did offer a solution, let us upgrade normal/heroic items to there TF forms, instead of adding +8 ilvl to already existing TF items throught VP upgrades being back in 5.3.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    (increased droprates in 25) will hurt in the long run and shouldnt exist in the current form of the game.
    been that way for... how long now? and 10mans certainly arent suffering compared to the sad state of 25s.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    been that way for... how long now? and 10mans certainly arent suffering compared to the sad state of 25s.
    The new staff adds up to this one. Dont ignore it.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  7. #7
    So your argument is. You cant get thunderforged gear so everyone that can shouldn't be able to upgrade them......

    Say that to yourself a few more times and tell me how silly it sounds. What would be special about thunderforged if you couldn't upgrade it?

    Thunderforged gear was a bandaid on the 25 man situation. If gear is all you care about(which is what this post seems to say for yourself), run 25 man.

    Your "solution" just eliminates the bandaid which means you didn't think there was a problem in the first place. When there absolutely was. Whether it was effective or not is subjective. But to say it gives 25 man an advantage is silly. Look at paragon for example. They farmed gear on 25 man and went and blew through 10. 10 man is tuned to have less gear.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Vishiz View Post
    So your argument is. You cant get thunderforged gear so everyone that can shouldn't be able to upgrade them......

    Say that to yourself a few more times and tell me how silly it sounds. What would be special about thunderforged if you couldn't upgrade it?

    Thunderforged gear was a bandaid on the 25 man situation. If gear is all you care about(which is what this post seems to say for yourself), run 25 man.

    Your "solution" just eliminates the bandaid which means you didn't think there was a problem in the first place. When there absolutely was. Whether it was effective or not is subjective. But to say it gives 25 man an advantage is silly. Look at paragon for example. They farmed gear on 25 man and went and blew through 10. 10 man is tuned to have less gear.
    What? Dont understand this logic, since we're talking about 2 different communities and not just about something which could only affect myself. Currently 25s get 3x the items along with 2.5x higher chance for TF.

    At the end of the week, a 25 man raiding guild will have 65 potentially useful items with statistically ~17 TFs, whereas a 10 man guild will have 15 potentially useful items with statistically 1-2 TFs... looks right? Not.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  9. #9
    The Patient The Jabberwock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vishiz View Post
    Your "solution" just eliminates the bandaid which means you didn't think there was a problem in the first place. When there absolutely was. Whether it was effective or not is subjective. But to say it gives 25 man an advantage is silly. Look at paragon for example. They farmed gear on 25 man and went and blew through 10. 10 man is tuned to have less gear.
    No, the actual solution is to just get rid of 25-man raids.

    The problem is that people simply don't like large raids. The vast majority of people who bother with it are the ones solely obsessed with gear or some misguided-belief that they're earning prestige in world-first groups. If given the choice -- which people finally were -- the vast, vast, vast majority prefer 10 man raids over 25 man ones, even guilds that could easily support 25-man groups made the switch. Not because they were easier (they're not), not because of the logistics of organizing twenty-five people (it wasn't), but simply because it was a smaller, more intimate group of people who actually like each other, not a group of people who's only commonality is a tag under their name and an immature greediness for easy loot (because 25 mans are easier; more people can screw up without affecting the final outcome; argue all you want, but it's a simple fact), of which more than half hated the other half.

    There's a reason 40 man raids died a brutal and deserving death. Each and every reason for that is exactly the same for 25 man raids. Each and every.

    The people spoke. 25 man raids are dwindling due to a lack of interest. WHY keep trying to force the issue when you know it's not what people want? It's ridiculous. It's just another example of Blizzard's developers thinking they know best rather than facing reality.
    Last edited by The Jabberwock; 2013-04-08 at 08:57 PM.

  10. #10
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    I like keeping the 25 mans around and giving them better loot rewards. It keeps the "I hate group content, but want the best gear" people out of 10 man guilds.

  11. #11
    yeah you're right lets kill off 25 man raids. And when 10 man raids become too much for people to handle, we'll kill those off too, and when 8 man raids get to be too much, we'll kill those off too. And then we can play world of 5man craft.

    A large enough portion of the population actually prefers 25 man raiding over 10. And so does Blizzard, that is why they are incentivizing it... get over it. We get apps from players in 10 man guilds who just hate 10 man raiding and want to get back into the chaos and destruction that is 25. You can't just assume everyone in a 10 man guild prefers 10 man, nor vice versa, plain and simple, 10 man is easier to organize, so it will have the larger player base, pretty simple. It doesn't mean its better, or everyone likes it more, it just means its easier to organize.

    As far as Thunderforged gear is concerned. Its here for this tier, they aren't going to remove it, and you will be able to upgrade it. An angry rant on MMO-C wont fix that. Whether it sticks around or not is anyone's guess. But there's no use whining about it now.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    No, the actual solution is to just get rid of 25-man raids.

    The problem is that people simply don't like large raids. The vast majority of people who bother with it are the ones solely obsessed with gear or some misguided-belief that they're earning prestige in world-first groups. If given the choice -- which people finally were -- the vast, vast, vast majority prefer 10 man raids over 25 man ones, even guilds that could easily support 25-man groups made the switch. Not because they were easier (they're not), not because of the logistics of organizing twenty-five people (it wasn't), but simply because it was a smaller, more intimate group of people who actually like each other, not a group of people who's only commonality is a tag under their name and an immature greediness for easy loot (because 25 mans are easier; more people can screw up without affecting the final outcome; argue all you want, but it's a simple fact), of which more than half hated the other half.

    There's a reason 40 man raids died a brutal and deserving death. Each and every reason for that is exactly the same for 25 man raids. Each and every.

    The people spoke. 25 man raids are dwindling due to a lack of interest. WHY keep trying to force the issue when you know it's not what people want? It's ridiculous. It's just another example of Blizzard's developers thinking they know best rather than facing reality.
    There are even more people who don't raid at all because they don't have the time or prefer features in the game other than raiding (pvp for example). So does that mean that they should just get rid of raiding? Imagine how awesome your daily questing experience would be if Blizzard spent their resources on that instead!!!! Using the argument that some people don't like doing 25 man raids isn't a solution considering there are still people who do enjoy it. And how can you claim that guilds switching from 25-mans to 10-mans had nothing to do with logistical issues? I would enjoy seeing your data on that.

  13. #13
    Imo the main problem will be tuning of the next raid. On one hand you got ppl still getting 522 pieces and spending valor on actual items, on another hand you people in 549 (?) gear (which won't be really that hard to obtain for anyone who raids consistently) which means that either the normal mode raids will be too easy or too hard. And now with the shared loot you can probably be full 549 with only killing 6/12 (or so) on H.

    And yes, 25 mans gear up even faster now than they did in the past, (as compared to 10 man).
    On average a full clear 10 man raid will see (12 * 2 * 0.10) 2.4 thunderforged items in full clear.
    On average a full clear 25 man raid will see (12 * 6 * 0.25) 18 thunderforged items in full clear.

    That means that in 10 man it would take ~4 full clears to get everyone 1 piece of thunderforged. In 25 man in 4 clears everyone will get almost 3 pieces.

    That is a helluva difference.

  14. #14
    If they create a 3 man raid, dropping same ilvl loot as 10man and 25man, wont many go raid 3man and make that popular raid size because people prefer 3 man over 10 and 25 counterparts? 25 really needed something and I think TF was good enough

  15. #15
    The Patient The Jabberwock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togarox View Post
    There are even more people who don't raid at all because they don't have the time or prefer features in the game other than raiding (pvp for example). So does that mean that they should just get rid of raiding? Imagine how awesome your daily questing experience would be if Blizzard spent their resources on that instead!!!! Using the argument that some people don't like doing 25 man raids isn't a solution considering there are still people who do enjoy it. And how can you claim that guilds switching from 25-mans to 10-mans had nothing to do with logistical issues? I would enjoy seeing your data on that.
    Rant on all you like. The facts speak for themselves; of the people who raid, the vast majority prefer 10-man raids over 25-man raids. Trying to force people to do 25-man raids -- which they clearly do not enjoy -- is not only pointless and arrogant, it's a waste of resources. Especially when your only means of doing it is to bribe people into doing it.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Xjev View Post
    If they create a 3 man raid, dropping same ilvl loot as 10man and 25man, wont many go raid 3man and make that popular raid size because people prefer 3 man over 10 and 25 counterparts? 25 really needed something and I think TF was good enough
    25 man already had more gear. This time it's just getting a metric ton more gear. (Even accounting for larger raid size)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    Rant on all you like. The facts speak for themselves; of the people who raid, the vast majority prefer 10-man raids over 25-man raids.
    Well I'm sayin again, what would your stance be if they make a 3man raid and reward same ilvl of 10 and 25 man raids, wont then "vast majority prefer 3-man raids over 10-25-man raids." ?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 09:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    25 man already had more gear. This time it's just getting a metric ton more gear. (Even accounting for larger raid size)

    Quality matters not quantity and it wasn't tons more gear...
    Last edited by Xjev; 2013-04-08 at 09:27 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Xjev View Post
    Quality matters not quantity and It wasn't tons more gear... (try to experience both you'll see yrself)
    If you would read what i wrote i never said it was tons before.
    I was perfectly fine with how it was before, simply because i'm ok with getting slightly less gear if it means that instead of dealing with 24 ppl (where you're most likely not going to like at least one person), i can raid with only 9 other people and not stress out.

    However, now, in 25 man on average you're going to get a full thunderforged 3 times faster than in 10 man. For everyone. Which is no bueno.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    Rant on all you like. The facts speak for themselves; of the people who raid, the vast majority prefer 10-man raids over 25-man raids. Trying to force people to do 25-man raids -- which they clearly do not enjoy -- is not only pointless and arrogant, it's a waste of resources. Especially when your only means of doing it is to bribe people into doing it.
    They aren't forcing anyone into 25 mans any more than they are forcing everyone to play paladins. The words "force" and "mandatory" are way overused in this community by people who have no idea what they actually mean. Forcing you into 25-mans would be taking away 10-mans completely (which is what you would like to do in reverse).

    edit because I realized I never responded to OP: I do think that the 25% chance is too high. I think 15% for 25 man and 10% for 10 man would be much more accurate. 25-mans still have a higher chance of getting a TF but not as high (only 13% diff. if I did my math correctly compared to a 42% diff. currently).
    Last edited by Togarox; 2013-04-08 at 09:43 PM.

  20. #20
    Hey look, it's another one of these posts that quickly has a ten man raider saying 25's are only for gear whores and fame seekers. (You're completely wrong BTW).

    FWIW I like 25-man better and would continue to raid 25-mans even if they cut the gear drops in half. It's more fun to play with more people. I like the rivalry/camaraderie of the larger healing team or the larger caster DPS team (which is mostly what I've been a part of) and I like the versatility of running with mutliple specs of multiple classes, as well as the larger variety of approaches to a raid encounter that the larger team enables.

    I hope that thunderforged items are upgradable. What's the point of them otherwise? With the new lowered upgrade cost (250 valor) an un-upgradable thunderforged item is actually worse than a regular item that's been easily upgraded. You might as well remove TF items from the game.

    Why are you so jealous of 25-man raiders getting more TF gear anyway? It's not like it impacts your ability to play your raid. It's not "imbalanced" because you're not competing against 25-man raiders. It's clearly not making 10-man raiding undesirable, since that continues to be the most popular format. The only possible way it could affect balance is if in T16 all the 25-man guilds split into ten-man raids at the start to take advantage of their slightly higher gear levels.

    And it's not like anyone is stopping you from joining a 25-man team. We're always recruiting in my guild!
    Last edited by Herrenos; 2013-04-08 at 09:41 PM.

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