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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Imo the main problem will be tuning of the next raid. On one hand you got ppl still getting 522 pieces and spending valor on actual items, on another hand you people in 549 (?) gear (which won't be really that hard to obtain for anyone who raids consistently) which means that either the normal mode raids will be too easy or too hard. And now with the shared loot you can probably be full 549 with only killing 6/12 (or so) on H.

    And yes, 25 mans gear up even faster now than they did in the past, (as compared to 10 man).
    On average a full clear 10 man raid will see (12 * 2 * 0.10) 2.4 thunderforged items in full clear.
    On average a full clear 25 man raid will see (12 * 6 * 0.25) 18 thunderforged items in full clear.

    That means that in 10 man it would take ~4 full clears to get everyone 1 piece of thunderforged. In 25 man in 4 clears everyone will get almost 3 pieces.

    That is a helluva difference.
    This math is wrong because tier cannot drop in TF variety and there are 15 tokens that drop in a 25man full clear.

    ((7*6*0.25)+(5*3*0.25)) = 14.25 TF items in a full normal 25 clear

    ((7*2*0.10)+(5*1*0.10)) = 1.9 TF items in a full normal 10 clear

    The 25:10 TF drop ratio remains the same but your numbers were wrong.
    Last edited by jsz; 2013-04-08 at 09:43 PM.
    Jsz
    <Identity Crisis> US-Horde Mythic
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jsz View Post
    This math is wrong because tier cannot drop in TF variety and there are 15 tokens that drop in a 25man full clear.

    ((7*6*0.25)+(5*3*0.25)) = 14.25 TF items in a full normal clear
    Sorry forgot about that.
    However it means that in 10 man there's

    ((7*2*0.1)+(5*1*0.1)) = 1.9 TF items in a full clear.

    Adjust per raid size 10 man raider get's 0.19 pieces of TF loot a week, 25 man raider gets 0.57 pieces of loot a week.
    Which is exactly 3 times more.
    So everything else stays the same except for the fact that it will take 5 weeks instead of 4.

  3. #23
    Like celinamuna pointed out, if 10 mans get ~2 TF items 25 mans shouldnt get more than ~6 TFs and not ~14 like now.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  4. #24
    So you guys disagree with the way 25 mans get thunderforged items at an increased rate... grats... they put it that way for a reason. 10 mans are tuned to be killable with less gear for a reason.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    Well 1st, if you dont like higher chance for thinderforged to drop in 25man, then stop playing in 10man...
    Higher the cance yes, but in 25man u have 25man in 10man u have 10man, so for some items even more then 3x ppl are /rolling. If you have 4melee class chances are all will go for it, what if agility leather drops? Assuming you 2 rogues, 2 druids ( guardian + feral ) and lets say monk thats 5 ppl..

    Well wrong. Ppl start with same gear, better guilds kill bosses faster ( on HC at least ) so they get better gear faster. How do you plan on fixing that? 90% of guilds havent even killed 12/12 yet alone one on HC, those that have 530+ have killed. Tell me how do you plan on fixing that? assuming thattop guild entered ToT full HC geared ( and thats not hard considering weeks that had ), thay will have ilvl of about 509 ( if they dont upgrade ) so when ToT starts its EZ to have more then 520+ in 2 weeks, and killing on HC would take tem to 530+ fast,,,

    But i dont see any problem in upgrading thunderforged items, just make it 2x expensive...
    they're supposed to be equal. you're not supposed to feel forced to play the version you don't like because it gives way more/better loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vishiz View Post
    So you guys disagree with the way 25 mans get thunderforged items at an increased rate... grats... they put it that way for a reason. 10 mans are tuned to be killable with less gear for a reason.
    are they? link to your source?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Vishiz View Post
    So you guys disagree with the way 25 mans get thunderforged items at an increased rate... grats... they put it that way for a reason. 10 mans are tuned to be killable with less gear for a reason.
    They arent tuned this way, stop spreading bullshit without linking proof (which doesnt exist). It wouldnt be the first time Blizzard oversees something like this, and its a major game breaking issue for me and some other people I know.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Vishiz View Post
    So you guys disagree with the way 25 mans get thunderforged items at an increased rate... grats... they put it that way for a reason. 10 mans are tuned to be killable with less gear for a reason.
    First of all, that's not true.
    The reason they made the drop-rate higher in 25-man is they want more 25-mans to be formed. It feels unfair to all of us that have gone down to 10-mans.
    I actually tried to reform the 25-man, but couldn't really get 2 other 10-mans in on that.
    Maybe i could today, but i've honestly lost the desire to do so, since i don't like to raid with people only going because of the loot :P
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    They arent tuned this way, stop spreading bullshit without linking proof (which doesnt exist). It wouldnt be the first time Blizzard oversees something like this, and its a major game breaking issue for me and some other people I know.
    10man is tuned half a tier lower than 25man when it comes to dps requirements, it's been like that since icc and that hasn't changed.

    -

    On topic, you can upgrade tf on ptr atm, and I highly doubt they will disable that on launch in a few weeks. My reasoning for allowing it is, protectors elite hc loot is exactly the same as the current thunderforged versions (slight ilvl difference 8 vs 6).
    Last edited by Hazori; 2013-04-09 at 12:03 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    10man is tuned half a tier lower than 25man when it comes to dps requirements, it's been like that since icc and that hasn't changed.

    -

    On topic, you can upgrade tf on ptr atm, and I highly doubt they will disable that on launch in a few weeks. My reasoning for allowing it is, protectors elite hc loot is exactly the same as the current thunderforged versions (slight ilvl difference 8 vs 6).
    The difference in dps required could be that you've 5-6 DPS in 10 man and what? 16 in 25 mans or so. Doesnt mean its less harsh in either mode or even "tuned" that way.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  10. #30
    As I see this the real problem with 10 man loot is not the lower change of TF items but the ability to use all the loot that drops. That is where Blizzard really needs to work on 10 man loot. Since we only get 2 items in 10 we get less chance of getting usuable loot.

    Since 25s have the larger roster to accomidate the duplicate drops and have 6 chances to get different loot those raids do not get stuck in as wicked a gear rut as 10s can. Allowing them to get further along more efficiently as every one should be getting geared more evenly allowing them to push those raids checks easier.

    As for the difficulty in 10s and 25s (having raided both) they both have the disadvantages and advantages and both styles have fights that area easier and harder than their conterparts, but these arguments have and will persist while there are multiple raid sizes.
    Last edited by Sauril77; 2013-04-09 at 02:54 PM.

  11. #31
    I want you guys to go to the fight rankings on WoL and look at 10man H and 25man H and explain to me why most 10 man kills are 1-2 minutes faster if you don't think 10 mans are tuned to have less gear.

  12. #32
    Here is some data form ICY veins. This is the DPS requirements need to beat the enrage timer on Jin'rokh. I think the real difference in timers for 10 versus 25 man mans comes from the fact that you can more easily cherry pick the best and brightest and know you are getting full production from everyone. Plus as shown below the requirements are lower for at least this fight for a max DPS makeup in 10 man. Not sure if that is because we have less healers in 10 or it just worked out that way. Otherwise the balance party make up is he same.

    •10-man Normal with 5 DPS: 82k DPS;
    •10-man Normal with 6 DPS: 70k DPS;
    •10-man Heroic with 5 DPS: 126k DPS;
    •10-man Heroic with 6 DPS: 108k DPS;
    •25-man Normal with 16 DPS: 87k DPS;
    •25-man Normal with 17 DPS: 82k DPS;
    •25-man Normal with 18 DPS: 78k DPS;
    •25-man Heroic with 16 DPS: 133k DPS;
    •25-man Heroic with 17 DPS: 126k DPS;
    •25-man Heroic with 18 DPS: 119k DPS.

    Horridon shows the same trend.
    •10-man with 5 DPS: 90k DPS;
    •10-man with 6 DPS: 77k DPS;
    •25-man with 16 DPS: 95k DPS;
    •25-man with 17 DPS: 90k DPS;
    •25-man with 18 DPS: 86k DPS

    Max DPS composition requires lower DPS for a 10 man but is even for middle of the road.

    Would that DPS difference account for such a large time difference?
    Last edited by Sauril77; 2013-04-09 at 09:56 PM.

  13. #33
    So you guys disagree with the way 25 mans get thunderforged items at an increased rate... grats... they put it that way for a reason. 10 mans are tuned to be killable with less gear for a reason.
    tf items were implemented to give people a reason to go 25man instead of 10man. that's it. they looked for a way to save 25man so that it doesn't die. tf was their solution.
    that 10man guilds feel a disadvantage here is understandable. the rng of loot drop is already frustrating without tf in mind. I know in 25man there are similar issues.

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