Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Better, EA should provide more stable results, by relying on making sure you *always* have the fury and imps you're expecting, rather than hoping you don't encounter bad luck and miss some in return for some extra corr/doom damage.
    True, but our optimization criterion has always been to maximize average damage, not to minimize the range.

    But yes, if it wasn't clear, I'm also sceptical that the EA glyph will ever not be optimal for a demo lock with the lei shen trinket.
    http://wowupgrade.com/ - instant gear comparison for all classes / specs

  2. #22
    The Patient Sparkuggz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    331
    Simcrafts weren't really run with proper use of trinkets and its just that major for Demonology. Also the haste stacking is boosting your Imp CD + RPPM trinkets, which means a Breath is most likely a better option then a Cha'ye for this type of Demonology.

    The destruction profile is still terrible (and it's not that far behind) if you optimize the profile a bit and play around trinkets.
    [Method] Sparkuggz | Stream: Sparkuggz | Warlock Guide: Method

  3. #23
    Care to share your improvements?

  4. #24
    The Patient Sparkuggz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    331
    Quote Originally Posted by Berthold View Post
    Care to share your improvements?
    Well thats some of the things they added somewhat in the new demonology profile. But all simcraft profiles just goes out and in of demoform based on some fury levels, same with Chaos bolt vs Burning embers. Ingame you want to be in demoform during your trinket procs most of the time and as Destruction you don't always want to just sit and wait for 3½ ember before casting chaos bolt.

    Also i dont think Lei Shen trinket + destruction is good, because the casttime / traveltime + lei shen proc, just doesn't seem to work well together. In simcraft you obviously hit the target instantly, thus resulting in using your trinket somewhat good, while in reality you will barely ever use it good.

    It's still bugged on fights like Durumu though, with 30% uptime if your guild has adds up from dispells
    [Method] Sparkuggz | Stream: Sparkuggz | Warlock Guide: Method

  5. #25
    Field Marshal Leyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Dalaran, Northrend
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkuggz View Post
    Simcrafts weren't really run with proper use of trinkets and its just that major for Demonology. Also the haste stacking is boosting your Imp CD + RPPM trinkets, which means a Breath is most likely a better option then a Cha'ye for this type of Demonology.

    The destruction profile is still terrible (and it's not that far behind) if you optimize the profile a bit and play around trinkets.
    I'm sure Sparkuggz is right, I don't believe things are modeling accurately for Destro at this time.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkuggz View Post
    and as Destruction you don't always want to just sit and wait for 3½ ember before casting chaos bolt.

    Also i dont think Lei Shen trinket + destruction is good, because the casttime / traveltime + lei shen proc, just doesn't seem to work well together. In simcraft you obviously hit the target instantly, thus resulting in using your trinket somewhat good, while in reality you will barely ever use it good.
    Latest Destro profile uses CB on DS/skull banner/during high int proc/before going over the cap. If used with lei shen, it adds a brain lag penalty for catching that the proc occured and uses it for reapplying immolate for the reasons you stated. Looks reasonable to me.

    What do you mean by "hit the target instantly"?

  7. #27
    The Patient Sparkuggz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    331
    Quote Originally Posted by Berthold View Post
    Latest Destro profile uses CB on DS/skull banner/during high int proc/before going over the cap. If used with lei shen, it adds a brain lag penalty for catching that the proc occured and uses it for reapplying immolate for the reasons you stated. Looks reasonable to me.

    What do you mean by "hit the target instantly"?
    Yep just noticed they updated it with the Destruction profile.

    Major reason Destruction profile is lower then demo / affl is also how well new meta gem scales with Affliction and Demo, while destro is a very small upgrade compared, because the 3% increased crit scales well with chaos bolt
    Last edited by Sparkuggz; 2013-04-09 at 06:52 PM.
    [Method] Sparkuggz | Stream: Sparkuggz | Warlock Guide: Method

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkuggz View Post
    Also i dont think Lei Shen trinket + destruction is good, because the casttime / traveltime + lei shen proc, just doesn't seem to work well together. In simcraft you obviously hit the target instantly, thus resulting in using your trinket somewhat good, while in reality you will barely ever use it good.
    Isnt dmg of chaos bolt calculated at the end of the cast, not at the time it lands?

    Btw, i simply added breath of hydra procs to both CB and SB lines, and this resulted in 2k increase, 144 to 146. Somehow lowering 3,5 ember value to 3,2 increased the dmg by few hunderd dps as well. Did that as i noticed ember overflow in my results.

  9. #29
    Damage of Spells is calculated at the end of the cast and then starts flying.

    Regarding BH.. I assume you are using the "old" profile from the latest release?
    The latest CB Line is

    chaos_bolt,if=ember_react&target.health.pct>20&(buff.backdraft.stack<3|level<86)&(burning_ ember>(4.5-active_enemies)|buff.dark_soul.remains>cast_time|buff.skull_banner.remains>cast_time|(trin ket.proc.intellect.react&trinket.proc.intellect.remains>cast_time))

    and the trinket.** stuff should already take care of the BH proc.

    The exact number for when to cast unbuffed Chaos Bolts depends on a gazillion factors, so it's using something simple, but I can definitely see that changing it in some direction improves dps for a given profile.

  10. #30
    Herald of the Titans MrHappy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,518
    hmm I'm quite sceptical about use of Sac for Demo. Even with UVLS. To me it t15 set is modeled around the mentality of Faster Fury generation and cheaper cost on spells in Meta to give it higher uptime. Pets improve fury generation. It seems counterproductive to me to use Sac for demo because it would lower the frequency of metas and lower its uptime. Personally I would rather have more meta phases/higher uptime on them vs. Sac to improve my damage. Not to mention Sac would not work on fights that require aoe (horidon, tortos, Ji Kun, Lei Shen to a degree) or phases where you can't hit the boss reliable all the time (Ji Kun, Qon for some parts, durmu maybe depends on what you have to do) Petless Demo seems bleh to me.
    www.cherishyourit.ca MCTS - Win 7, MCTS - AD, A+, Security+

  11. #31
    Field Marshal Leyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Dalaran, Northrend
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by MrHappy View Post
    hmm I'm quite sceptical about use of Sac for Demo. Even with UVLS. To me it t15 set is modeled around the mentality of Faster Fury generation and cheaper cost on spells in Meta to give it higher uptime. Pets improve fury generation. It seems counterproductive to me to use Sac for demo because it would lower the frequency of metas and lower its uptime. Personally I would rather have more meta phases/higher uptime on them vs. Sac to improve my damage. Not to mention Sac would not work on fights that require aoe (horidon, tortos, Ji Kun, Lei Shen to a degree) or phases where you can't hit the boss reliable all the time (Ji Kun, Qon for some parts, durmu maybe depends on what you have to do) Petless Demo seems bleh to me.
    Don't worry, if it becomes common they will just nerf the shit out of GoSac again. Right now it is a DPS gain on single target fights with Unerring Vision. GC will see this, then slap the shit out of the dev that missed it, then post the nerf. Just my 2 cents.

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans MrHappy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,518
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyl View Post
    Don't worry, if it becomes common they will just nerf the shit out of GoSac again. Right now it is a DPS gain on single target fights with Unerring Vision. GC will see this, then slap the shit out of the dev that missed it, then post the nerf. Just my 2 cents.
    hmm tbh a i has to be more than ~5% gain overall for my to justify the use on single target fights (which there are not many in ToT Qon, Animus, Lei Shen if you want to be scumbag dps and ignore the orbs outside of Hand of guldan, Jin rok are about the only fights in ToT that would apply) and I still think the QoL is better WITH a pet than without.
    www.cherishyourit.ca MCTS - Win 7, MCTS - AD, A+, Security+

  13. #33
    Field Marshal Leyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Dalaran, Northrend
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by MrHappy View Post
    hmm tbh a i has to be more than ~5% gain overall for my to justify the use on single target fights (which there are not many in ToT Qon, Animus, Lei Shen if you want to be scumbag dps and ignore the orbs outside of Hand of guldan, Jin rok are about the only fights in ToT that would apply) and I still think the QoL is better WITH a pet than without.
    I don't disagree, but in bleeding edge progression guilds they are soooooo not about comfort. The thing that happens most is people look at what they do, emulate, and then regurgitate. Sadly, sites like raidbots and others can emphasize scumbag DPSers to the point of obsequiousness. This leads to the situation we are at now, where GC tries to amend this and moves with snap kicks.

  14. #34
    Keyboard Turner Vladimiir65's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5
    i agree with what leyl says, its a gain right now to use sac for the most part, so enjoy it while you can, cause a Demonology lock sacrificing its demon seems very counter-intuitive to how the devs would like it to be played. itll get a nerf soon

  15. #35
    Herald of the Titans MrHappy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,518
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimiir65 View Post
    i agree with what leyl says, its a gain right now to use sac for the most part, so enjoy it while you can, cause a Demonology lock sacrificing its demon seems very counter-intuitive to how the devs would like it to be played. itll get a nerf soon
    i'll give it a shot if that trinket ever drops for me
    www.cherishyourit.ca MCTS - Win 7, MCTS - AD, A+, Security+

  16. #36
    I'm not convinced it'll get nerfed since it's so dependent on a specific piece of gear that not everyone will have, on top of the dps increase not being nearly as massive (single target anyway) as the old affliction sac vs other grimoires
    Armory

    <WHATEVER WERE AWESOME> - 14/14 Heroic US 4th West 16th 25m Always Recruiting

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    I'm not convinced it'll get nerfed since it's so dependent on a specific piece of gear that not everyone will have, on top of the dps increase not being nearly as massive (single target anyway) as the old affliction sac vs other grimoires
    Give it a few weeks and everyone and their grandmother will have that trinket. It just requires RNG to get the drop, any raiding guild can get 12/12 normal. I see it kind of as a bad thing as this somewhat closes the gap between great and decent demo warlocks as long as u can control the proc of the trinket, as it puts more damage into stuff (wild imps) you are not even controlling yourself and removes your pet + 2 abilities (GoServ and felstorm) that both require focus and micro management, not by a lot but still.

    The trinket is more the problem than sac itself as sac would've still be a terrible choice without the trinket but I'd rather have a sac nerf then an UVLS nerf any day cause if this stays the way it is and as scaling goes with gear + sac, sac will just be completely overpowered in the next tier together with this trinket.

    Saying this though, the trinket seems really awesome and will still be really interesting to play around with and it mixes up the playstyle a little.

    I'm expecting a flat nerf, or just a nerf to the improved imp dmg at some point.
    Last edited by Tramzh; 2013-04-09 at 11:15 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    I'm not convinced it'll get nerfed since it's so dependent on a specific piece of gear that not everyone will have
    That's kind of an issue with the entire build, though. There haven't been many times in WoW's history where an entire build was defined by having a single piece of gear before, but when those situations come up they have often been short-lived. (See: Arcane Mages with Shard of Woe)

    Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply let us have this for a little while, and then broke it completely for 5.4. If they don't, we'll probably end up using UVLS until the next expansion with the way things are going, and I know they get all upset when their shiny new tier of items aren't all outright upgrades.
    "And so he spoke, and so he spoke
    That lord of Castamere
    Now the rains weep o'er his hall with no one there to hear"

  19. #39
    Regarding travel time and the Lei Shen trinket for Destro, spell damage (including crit calculation) isn't calculated when the spell reaches the target but rather as soon as the cast ends. The damage that's applied when the spell hits was already determined based on the procs and abilities you had active when the spell was finished casting. Cast time obviously still applies, and either way the trinket sucks for Destro compared to the other options.

    Regarding the trinket being nerfed for Demonology... I hope they nerf it. I hate the play style compared to what I've been doing for the last several months. Demonology is my favorite spec by a massive margin, but not with this trinket.
    Last edited by Teye; 2013-04-09 at 11:40 PM.

  20. #40
    I checked the "the 25% for sacrifice , down from 30%" nerf on the ptr, and its really just a tooltip fix. We have 25% on live already.
    Given that sacrifice and service are pretty close on the sim and simcraft calculates with 30% i would say service will be slightly ahead.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •