Issues vs Dk's

[Rine]

Let me start this thread by stating, I Don't want this to come off as "omg, dks op nerf" or "idk how to play nerf dk's" I want to know realistic feedback of how to deal with dks vs my comp.

So I've been playing jungle cleave for 4 season now, minus last season. s11 we finished top 5% of our battlegroup, and plan to finish duelist this season (have been bouncing around top 100 teams on rampage atm) This season is the first season we have not completely obliterated dks in our opener. I have no issues with there survivablity changes but dk's are not even a target for us anymore. Every dk team we face the dk simply sits in blood presence and spreads his dots. poping defensive cds vs a mage, or rogue or hunter is common, and necessary in pvp. However vs consistent pressure we have little tools.

This has been the case for hunter for many seasons, hunters have trouble vs dot cleaves but in general you need to counter pressure the team in the begging, so cc's are used defensively and outgoing pressure is kept to a minimum, or kill a dps in the opener. Now we cant do this vs dk teams. the pressure is to high through the game if we don't get a kill in the opener (which is unlikely playing glads+) then its gg. We have yet to kill a good dk in a solid opener (fear, scatter, trap, silence, sleep, clone, bash without a trinket, dk still lives) the only team we faced where the dk could not put out enough pressure to cleave our team down, he simply switched to my pet, and with mend pet up, healer on pet, and rotating 5 pets out+ 1 instant res he eventually got the kill.

Now, Imo blood pressence is a useful tool that allows dks to mitigate damage, has been this way for a long time, now they sit in blood presence and it seems to have 0 effect on there damage output. I don't think having blood survivability+Uh damage is exactly balanced.

I.e We lost a match vs warr/dk after I left the match, I had 2 dk dots on me, and had 110K health. After the dots nearly killed me, I popped a master healing potion (120K health) then they continued to tick until I died. Upon death, both dots still had 10 seconds remaining.

Tldr Im looking for a way for our team to handle dk teams pressure/survivability we cant kill them in an opener and any longer then that and we all die at the same time or our healer is dead after being tunneled (with peels ofc)

[Zethras]

Blood presence does reduce damage dks do, unholy presence increases haste, frost presence increases RP generation, blood does neither of these things.

[Rine]

Blood presence does reduce damage dks do, unholy presence increases haste, frost presence increases RP generation, blood does neither of these things.

While this is true, as far as I can see no dks over 1800 need the added pressure of Uh/frost presence. There pressure in Blood is amazing, with the survivability to boot. Imo blood presence should be used to stay alive with significant reduction to damage, forcing the dk to use uh/frost presence to put out pressure. Not having the best of both world bundled into one lol

[Malgru]

I'm almost certain Holinka tweeted that unholy dk pressure in blood presence will be reduced. I think they want to not have sudden doom proc while in blood presence. Not 100% sure that they will do that, but that's what holinka wants to do.

We'll see.

[Rine]

I'm almost certain Holinka tweeted that unholy dk pressure in blood presence will be reduced. I think they want to not have sudden doom proc while in blood presence. Not 100% sure that they will do that, but that's what holinka wants to do.

We'll see.

Thank god, mabey i posted this to soon lol

[topapagaramonde]

Frost DKs lose more than just 20% rune generation, it also almost doubles our runic power required to do a frost strike, which in turns, lowers our rune generation even further. I was not aware than unholy benefited from sudden doom even when not in unholy presence. That does seems broken, gives them best of both worlds.

[Siddown]

I.e We lost a match vs warr/dk after I left the match, I had 2 dk dots on me, and had 110K health. After the dots nearly killed me, I popped a master healing potion (120K health) then they continued to tick until I died. Upon death, both dots still had 10 seconds remaining.

So the two dots did 230K damage and still had 10 seconds left? I think you must be mistaken, that or it's the "just out of arena/bg" bug that happens on occasion because assuming you lost the match and got out of the arena and the diseases had like 20 seconds left on them, you're talking 460K damage from 2 dots and DKs dots don't do that much damage on a single target, at least none that I've ever seen.

[Tyrean]

That will not be enough. For example, frost can't sit in blood presence because it has a cascading effect on their damage. In unholy and blood presence frost strike costs 35 runic power. In frost presence it costs 20. Frost strike is how frost increases their rune regen time (through blood tap, runic empowerment, or runic corruption). If you are in blood presence then you are not doing as many frost strikes, therefore not increasing your rune regen time, therefor not generating runic power, therefor decreasing your frost strikes further, etc. A frost DK sitting in blood presence will probably also sit on RP for conversion/lichborne so their damage goes way down.

Unholy though, they can sit in blood presence because the cost of deathcoil is unchanged. They can still regen runes faster, still heal with lichborne, heal their pet, damage, etc as they can in unholy presence. The only thing they miss out on is some increased rune regen and haste which they don't care as much about because of how unholy does damage through diseases mainly instead of strikes.

Nerfing sudden doom won't effect unholy's ability to sit in blood presence very much at all. Your complaint about the diseases killing you after the game was over is just a bug that has cropped up recently. For some reason when you leave instanced PvP your resilience get's shut off. So those diseases that were probably ticking on you for 8k a pop quadruple in damage roughly. That is just a bug sorry that you died. Dealing with DKs though is actually quite easy, especially as a hunter. Remember that his dots do damage, but only if he can spread them to a bunch of targets. His damage done at the end of the match is going to look overwhelming but that is mainly because he is spreading it to your pets and your zoo. It is a lot of meaningless damage really. His pressure comes as assist pressure. He will be spreading dots as much as he can and stacking necrotic strike to get your healer behind, his partner will be the one doing the real killing. So if you can stop the DK from either spreading dots or stacking necros his damage will be manageable. I will leave it to you to figure out how to do one or both of those. (it is easy as a hunter).

As far as killing the DK, remember that the DK is going to be in trouble from silences (no IBF, Pet sac, silence cast, lichborne, antimagic zone or shell, or darksim) basically all of his defensive CDS. If he is disarmed (he will eat the full disarm duration as he won't have a weapon chain of any kind) he can't death strike heal, or put out any pressure with necrotic strike. If he is stunned he obviously can't do any of that. So you can actually do a lot to shut a DK down and burst on him. If you start out on the DK with a feral pounce, into a disarm, into a silence (he will want CDs about now as this is probably when your powershot hits), into a pet stun, into another silence and he will have not been able to do anything to defend himself and you guys will have put some good damage into him (assuming you don't get peeled of course, but who can peel a feral/hunter? lol)

You have options, but I agree that DKs are pretty tanky right now as unholy in blood presence. Above poster is correct that Blizzard does not like that, but I doubt if they think sudden doom is the problem that they understand why an unholy likes blood so much.

[Shahad]

Unholy sit in Blood Presence because they have no choice. Their defensives are so crappy that they require the passive mitigation to not die immediately. We've been complaining about it for years and they ignored it. With the baseline 1.0 sec GCD, we can now use Blood Presence. If they don't like it, it's their problem to find an alternative, as GC said that BP is one of our main defensives.

As a hunter, there are a lot of things you can do to shut down a DK. You have enough CC to chain on him that will absolutely cripple either his offense or his defense(or both) and since most of your damage is physical they don't have very many defensives against you.

[Deleted]

You wrote first

Let me start this thread by stating, I Don't want this to come off as "omg, dks op nerf"

then,

I don't think having blood survivability+Uh damage is exactly balanced.

So do you want them to nerf them or what, is this another nerf topic please?

Thank god, mabey i posted this to soon lol

So which is it, you posted this in order to get dks nerfed?

I.e We lost a match vs warr/dk after I left the match, I had 2 dk dots on me, and had 110K health. After the dots nearly killed me, I popped a master healing potion (120K health) then they continued to tick until I died. Upon death, both dots still had 10 seconds remaining.

I cannot believe people still whine about this, let me repeat DOTS ARENT AFFECTED BY RESSILIENCE AFTER LEAVING ARENA. so they do 68% more damage. Is this argument that when dks do 68% more damage and kill you with 200k health, they are op? What makes dk dots kill people outside arena is duration not their strength, you can get hit by much higher numbers from dots from different classes.

Not saying that Blood stance is balanced, sudden doom nerf probably wont do it, shame is that people still are trying to kill dks even while they are in Blood stance which shouldnt be happening, but it does. They should cancel sudden doom, plus cannot get pet stacks in blood stance, and the death coil should probably have higher cost in blood stance, but also blood stance should get extra mitigation because right now it feels like blood stance is only way for dks to play, so you cant blame them for sitting in it.

[Rine]

That will not be enough. For example, frost can't sit in blood presence because it has a cascading effect on their damage. In unholy and blood presence frost strike costs 35 runic power. In frost presence it costs 20. Frost strike is how frost increases their rune regen time (through blood tap, runic empowerment, or runic corruption). If you are in blood presence then you are not doing as many frost strikes, therefore not increasing your rune regen time, therefor not generating runic power, therefor decreasing your frost strikes further, etc. A frost DK sitting in blood presence will probably also sit on RP for conversion/lichborne so their damage goes way down.

Unholy though, they can sit in blood presence because the cost of deathcoil is unchanged. They can still regen runes faster, still heal with lichborne, heal their pet, damage, etc as they can in unholy presence. The only thing they miss out on is some increased rune regen and haste which they don't care as much about because of how unholy does damage through diseases mainly instead of strikes.

Nerfing sudden doom won't effect unholy's ability to sit in blood presence very much at all. Your complaint about the diseases killing you after the game was over is just a bug that has cropped up recently. For some reason when you leave instanced PvP your resilience get's shut off. So those diseases that were probably ticking on you for 8k a pop quadruple in damage roughly. That is just a bug sorry that you died. Dealing with DKs though is actually quite easy, especially as a hunter. Remember that his dots do damage, but only if he can spread them to a bunch of targets. His damage done at the end of the match is going to look overwhelming but that is mainly because he is spreading it to your pets and your zoo. It is a lot of meaningless damage really. His pressure comes as assist pressure. He will be spreading dots as much as he can and stacking necrotic strike to get your healer behind, his partner will be the one doing the real killing. So if you can stop the DK from either spreading dots or stacking necros his damage will be manageable. I will leave it to you to figure out how to do one or both of those. (it is easy as a hunter).

As far as killing the DK, remember that the DK is going to be in trouble from silences (no IBF, Pet sac, silence cast, lichborne, antimagic zone or shell, or darksim) basically all of his defensive CDS. If he is disarmed (he will eat the full disarm duration as he won't have a weapon chain of any kind) he can't death strike heal, or put out any pressure with necrotic strike. If he is stunned he obviously can't do any of that. So you can actually do a lot to shut a DK down and burst on him. If you start out on the DK with a feral pounce, into a disarm, into a silence (he will want CDs about now as this is probably when your powershot hits), into a pet stun, into another silence and he will have not been able to do anything to defend himself and you guys will have put some good damage into him (assuming you don't get peeled of course, but who can peel a feral/hunter? lol)

You have options, but I agree that DKs are pretty tanky right now as unholy in blood presence. Above poster is correct that Blizzard does not like that, but I doubt if they think sudden doom is the problem that they understand why an unholy likes blood so much.

To address you and Siddown at the same time, The dots where ticking, non crits for 20K each, I was wearing full pvp gear, but I was unaware of the glitch, thanks for clearing that up.

I got alot of good information from this, I knew silences stoped some of the healing, but was unaware of how strong they where vs dks. We have enough ccs that we can sacrifice silence and bash on the dk if he is not eating traps, so I will be trying this, as for not being about to do damage to them.... well I guess ill powershot more? lol either way ty for the info should be of great help

[Tyrean]

Yeah, DKs have had the best of both worlds for a while when it comes to silence and disarm. One of the main reasons why DKs cannot be flag carriers because a vortex/beam means they will die. While we are silenced the only thing we can do is strikes. While we are disarmed we cannot do any meaningful damage. We eat full durations on both. I can always tell if a match is going to suck if I am eating the counterspells instead of my healer.

[Tyrionlol]

My DK might be undergeared but as soon a fly shits on me I have to go into blood pres which reduces my dmg by up to 25% which is plenty.

[Deleted]

which reduces my dmg by up to 25% which is plenty.

by up to? what kind of math is that? 25%? You wish, especially against casters it would be that much.

[Ebonheart]

Let me start this thread by stating, I Don't want this to come off as "omg, dks op nerf" or "idk how to play nerf dk's" I want to know realistic feedback of how to deal with dks vs my comp.

So I've been playing jungle cleave for 4 season now, minus last season. s11 we finished top 5% of our battlegroup, and plan to finish duelist this season (have been bouncing around top 100 teams on rampage atm) This season is the first season we have not completely obliterated dks in our opener. I have no issues with there survivablity changes but dk's are not even a target for us anymore.

Now, Imo blood pressence is a useful tool that allows dks to mitigate damage, has been this way for a long time, now they sit in blood presence and it seems to have 0 effect on there damage output. I don't think having blood survivability+Uh damage is exactly balanced.

Ok so lemme see here what we have. You start with a its not what it is meant to be then talk about balance and their defensive being too OP? Then you brag about DKs being free kills in earlier seasons in between?

TLR Nerf Death Knights cause I can't kill them. Yeah that is all I can see.

Are you even thinking about a change you are asking for? Its clueless people like you who are so worried about their own rating and don't consider the impact of these changes that piss me off.

You are a freaking hunter. Minimum range for hunters had been removed. The old trick of locking down hunters that was so successful was thrown away. So now you have a class that cannot be locked down and neither can it be interrupted with double the mobility and kiting ability. And you still can't kill a DK? Think it has something to do with learning to play your class or isn't Popping stampede winning you enough matches yet?

I don't think its written in some big bold letters that you have to obliterate Death Knights where you so proudly wrote in your first paragraph.

When you play a class that takes a bit more skill without actually giving up on damage then come and talk to me. As far as most know, Unholy Dks probably require a lot of micro management and a lot more skill than a Hunter and chain lining all their CDs to get a kill.

Then do you want to get into specifics regarding Hunter defensive mechanics compared to a Death Knight? Pretty sure Hunters top that section.

Wouldn't be surprised if you were one of the Hunters that opened from Camouflage with a Powershot and I wouldn't be wrong in admitting it and you were probably the first one running to the forums crying about the change.

[Rine]

Ok so lemme see here what we have. You start with a its not what it is meant to be then talk about balance and their defensive being too OP? Then you brag about DKs being free kills in earlier seasons in between?

TLR Nerf Death Knights cause I can't kill them. Yeah that is all I can see.

Are you even thinking about a change you are asking for? Its clueless people like you who are so worried about their own rating and don't consider the impact of these changes that piss me off.

You are a freaking hunter. Minimum range for hunters had been removed. The old trick of locking down hunters that was so successful was thrown away. So now you have a class that cannot be locked down and neither can it be interrupted with double the mobility and kiting ability. And you still can't kill a DK? Think it has something to do with learning to play your class or isn't Popping stampede winning you enough matches yet?

I don't think its written in some big bold letters that you have to obliterate Death Knights where you so proudly wrote in your first paragraph.

When you play a class that takes a bit more skill without actually giving up on damage then come and talk to me. As far as most know, Unholy Dks probably require a lot of micro management and a lot more skill than a Hunter and chain lining all their CDs to get a kill.

Then do you want to get into specifics regarding Hunter defensive mechanics compared to a Death Knight? Pretty sure Hunters top that section.

Wouldn't be surprised if you were one of the Hunters that opened from Camouflage with a Powershot and I wouldn't be wrong in admitting it and you were probably the first one running to the forums crying about the change.

Well as I said I'm playing in a competive feild (top 3-5%) In this bracket, dks are actually good and know how to keep a hunter locked down, slow the focus regen, grip traps, use defensives, and most importantly los after slowing the hunter to the point that he can't catch up. Im sorry your getting zerged buy hunters just poping cd's but you might want to try some of these abilitys that take a hunter out of the game, btw, Ive never power shot a dk over 1800 mmr this season, they dont let that heppen.

Tldr im not talking about 1300 mmr, as you are clearly talking about, Im talking about experienced player that know there classes and how to counter others. Ty for your time

[Ebonheart]

Well as I said I'm playing in a competive feild (top 3-5%) In this bracket, dks are actually good and know how to keep a hunter locked down, slow the focus regen, grip traps, use defensives, and most importantly los after slowing the hunter to the point that he can't catch up. Im sorry your getting zerged buy hunters just poping cd's but you might want to try some of these abilitys that take a hunter out of the game, btw, Ive never power shot a dk over 1800 mmr this season, they dont let that heppen.

Tldr im not talking about 1300 mmr, as you are clearly talking about, Im talking about experienced player that know there classes and how to counter others. Ty for your time

Well then I think you need to adapt as well. You need to step up on your class besides asking for useless nerfs. If you are expecting to play 1800mmr+ you should be more focused on your class. If you can say the Death Knights that play above 1800 are good, shouldn't you try being better instead of flat out calling for a nerf? Shouldn't you work on countering other classes instead of coming to the forums cause a DK can lock you down? It works both ways when you talk shit.

While you are at it, why should Stampede be allowed in Arena and Army of the Dead shouldn't? In fact they both are similar CDs, with Stampede actually doing more DPS than AoTD.

And FYI I don't get zerged by hunters. I normally see how they play and that is how they usually PVP.

[Deleted]

I think no more pet stacks in BP and maybe more cost on certain abilities should do it, its nothing majorly unbalanced like a locks portals! aha

[Terahertz]

Let me start this thread by stating, I Don't want this to come off as "omg, dks op nerf" or "idk how to play nerf dk's" I want to know realistic feedback of how to deal with dks vs my comp.

So I've been playing jungle cleave for 4 season now, minus last season. s11 we finished top 5% of our battlegroup, and plan to finish duelist this season (have been bouncing around top 100 teams on rampage atm) This season is the first season we have not completely obliterated dks in our opener. I have no issues with there survivablity changes but dk's are not even a target for us anymore. Every dk team we face the dk simply sits in blood presence and spreads his dots. poping defensive cds vs a mage, or rogue or hunter is common, and necessary in pvp. However vs consistent pressure we have little tools.

This has been the case for hunter for many seasons, hunters have trouble vs dot cleaves but in general you need to counter pressure the team in the begging, so cc's are used defensively and outgoing pressure is kept to a minimum, or kill a dps in the opener. Now we cant do this vs dk teams. the pressure is to high through the game if we don't get a kill in the opener (which is unlikely playing glads+) then its gg. We have yet to kill a good dk in a solid opener (fear, scatter, trap, silence, sleep, clone, bash without a trinket, dk still lives) the only team we faced where the dk could not put out enough pressure to cleave our team down, he simply switched to my pet, and with mend pet up, healer on pet, and rotating 5 pets out+ 1 instant res he eventually got the kill.

Now, Imo blood pressence is a useful tool that allows dks to mitigate damage, has been this way for a long time, now they sit in blood presence and it seems to have 0 effect on there damage output. I don't think having blood survivability+Uh damage is exactly balanced.

I.e We lost a match vs warr/dk after I left the match, I had 2 dk dots on me, and had 110K health. After the dots nearly killed me, I popped a master healing potion (120K health) then they continued to tick until I died. Upon death, both dots still had 10 seconds remaining.

Tldr Im looking for a way for our team to handle dk teams pressure/survivability we cant kill them in an opener and any longer then that and we all die at the same time or our healer is dead after being tunneled (with peels ofc)

This would happen if you had have faced any other dotter too. Heck, I bet you'd die faster to spriest dots outside of arena than DK dots.

Don't worry though, blizzard is planning on somewhat nerfing unholy dks when sitting in blood presence.

[Deleted]

Umm... I'm not sure what to say. Just because you cannot train a DK into the ground this season DKs are OP :P? I mean warriors were out and about last season as close to be immortals while dealing out crazy burst. It's just how the cycle works, one or two classes become insane each season and people need to cope. I'd suggest training the other dps while having CC on the DK and constantly killing his pets.