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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by calanos View Post
    So, this is a stupid question I think, but do most of you guys swap the tanks after 2 breaths, or after each head dies? (for guilds not geared enough to kill the heads before the 3rd breath)
    We swap after 2 breaths.

  2. #22
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    We swap after each head dies. We usually get anywhere of 2-4 stacks per head.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  3. #23
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    We also only swap once the add dies. Our druid offtank had some very big problems by the end so I had to make my healers chain cooldowns on him, but I've never had problems when I brought my monk offtank. (I'm the main tank, protadin)


  4. #24
    Which head you kill/leave behind is going to highly depend on your healer comp (and maybe tank)
    The debate with green vs blue is this : If you keep green, then your healer may have to move for a prolonged time while not being able to heal, leading to a tank death (depending on positioning). If you keep blue, your tank heal will be more manageable because your healer won't be occupied too much with moving, but your raid as a whole will take more damage. We have a MW monk that can almost solely deal with the green blast, and prot pally that can aid in raid heals, so we keep the blue head up.


    I haven't looked at all the logs, just the longer ones.


    I see you've even tried 4 healing the fight (the longest attempt), i'd say 3 healing it will be better overall. Even more so if you can cut out a breath that way.

    I don't think you are fully using hand of purity (paladin spec) to its full potential. The way the cooldown works, is that you use it on the first breath of each head, and it will be available again at the 3rd breath. (Use it before/while its breathing)
    For the second breaths, have your tanks use a minor 1 min CD. (demo shout+enraged regen for warrior, and divine protection for paladin). If you see 4 breaths each time, have them use it on the 4th.

    If you are seeing 5 breaths then I'd say your dps is a bit too low.

    Swapping at 2 breaths has an advantage and disadvantages. It makes it so that the tanks only have 2 (or 3, if you take 5 breathes each time) on the rampage phase, which is especially important for the tank that just got the red head (the dot ticks pretty hard).
    The disadvantage could be that the tank also takes a bit more damage on the initial swap (if tank has green debuff or red debuff) but overall, the damage taken will be slightly lower. (or at least less spiky)



    Overall I'd say your dps is a bit low (even considering sub 500 ilevel) but I understand that people may not have done the fight enough to truly 'optimize' their dps for the fight. More gear will make this fight extremely easier (especially when you can cut out a breath).


    ------------------------Warrior tank tips I'd give to Nelda---------------------

    As a warrior, I'll give some tips for the warr tank on the fight.


    As said above, Enraged regen can be a nice short CD to be used on breaths for each head. I guess Impending victory could be the same. But I think Enraged regen is a more 'powerful' CD to use on dangerous breaths. Safeguard or vigilance can also be useful during rampages. (Not sure if his current armory spec is correct though)

    I don't see any banners being used (Skull of Demo). They are both very powerful CDs (both 3 min on seperate timer, but only 1 can be placed at a time). Use Demo on rampages if you're having trouble with rampage, use it on breaths if you have hard time dealing with tank healing. Skull banner can be used 2-3 times on the fight, depending on when you use it (I usually prepot, reckless+ avatar or bloodbath at the start, use it later on one of the rampages) .

    EDIT: Now that I've looked a bit more, it seems like the banners are not trackes in WoL (at least they're not present in my logs either, and I've used them consistently)

    He should be using shield barrier at least a bit. (especially during rampage with red or green debuff) Have him use glyph of undending rage (max rage +20) so he can pool a bit of rage during rampage. So drop 'Death from Above' in favor of 'Unending Rage.' Its a pretty good glyph for most fights.

    -----------------------------------
    Last edited by BLSTMASTER; 2013-04-10 at 02:12 AM.

  5. #25
    Our 10-man raid had very similar problems to your group with constant deaths around the 6th and 7th heads, often due to healers going oom (Once, we wiped while the last head had 144k health left). We never tried the 4 healer strategy as we felt the most dangerous time was between rampages when a large number of Poison Bolts drop in a rwo and we didn't want them to last longer. The strategy that worked for us in the end on the GRGRGRG sequence involved setting up a very detailed cooldown strategy utilising everyone's available cooldowns from the first rampage (to save mana for later on), using bloodlust on the 5th rampage when there will be 4 green heads active at the back, and popping pots for the final head.

    Cooldowns were the key to this fight for our raid. Our team was well set up for cooldowns, but I can see you have many 3-min cooldowns & a few 2-min cooldowns available among your group. Assuming a little less than 2 min between heads, a possible organisation could be as follows, although I encourage you to set one up based on discussion with your raid group:

    1st Rampage - Tranquility + Incarnation + Avenging Wrath + Guardian of Ancient Kings
    2nd Rampage - Tranquility + Devotion Aura + Demoralising Banner + Ancestral Guidance
    3rd Rampage - Tranquility + Incarnation + Devotion Aura + Rallying Cry + Divine Favor
    4th Rampage - Tranquility + Incarnation + Ancestral Guidance + Avenging Wrath
    5th Rampage - Bloodlust + Tranquility + Devotion Aura + Demoralising Banner + Guardian of Ancient Kings (This is the most dangerous one if you use GRGRGRG as there will be 4 green heads at the back spitting poison bombs)
    6th Rampage - Incarnation + Devotion Aura + Rallying Cry + Ancestral Guidance + Divine Favor + Guardian of Ancient Kings

    The cooldowns from the 4th rampage are usually up a little into the final head stage so you'll have another Tranquility, Incarnation and Avenging Wrath and available for that section.

    Finally, try to make sure everyone, including healers, are using their personal damage reduction cooldowns for every rampage to help healers save mana.

    I would imagine that there are a lot of different options that work for this fight, and I hope the above gives you some more ideas to think about.

  6. #26
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    1st and 2nd rampage doesn't have high damage. So there is little to no point in using any bigger healing CDs, just all stack and AoE heal. <- this is what worked for us

    We had on our kill monk, shaman, druid healing.
    1st and 2nd rampage smaller CDs and just stack up and AoE heal
    3rd rampage shaman's CD
    4th rampage druid's CD
    5th rampage monk's CD (as his was the strongest)
    6th rampage my hotw+tranq <- this brought raid up to full HP

    I would suggest leaving your longer CDs and the ones that are most effective to the later rampages as those do hurt.

    Ofc we went with G-R-B-G-R-G-R, if this plays any role.

    @Grimord I am a druid OT for our raid as well, and I tank with a protadin and I don't have that much issues staying alive (I did die just when the boss's last head died, but healers were oom and i was out of CDs ). I use CW on breaths, for last heads I try to save might of ursoc and have incarnation/berserk up to get those mangles in, so I could heal myself (FR heals significant amount). So I guess your druid was not in his element when he died
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
    Proud RL of 25-man 8/14 HC Open Raid PUG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  7. #27
    I can't see any one thing that is the problem for you guys. I would actually say your healing is pretty good. Their HPS effective numbers are a bit better than my raid's and we have not TOO much trouble getting a kill on this fight. Obviously I don't know what they're doing in burst situations, so maybe they're still letting you down in certain cases. This fight comes down to managing defensive CDs during Enrage. Set up a rotation of at least 1 if not 2 dmg reduction CDs per Enrage. Weighted towards the later Enrages, of course.

    Your DPS should be about 10% higher across the board for a more clean kill. And your tanks should also most likely be putting out better numbers. Your Prot Prolly dmg is equal to my raid's druid tank, and he is admittedly terrible at DPS ... like 30% lower than he should be. On my Brewmaster that is 507 ilvl I did 82kdps on our kill, for example. DPS should also be making sure they're using everything they can to stay alive. Healthstones, defensive CDs during Enrage, etc.

    As for tanking: The Prot Pally seems okay. Total dmg seems rather high, but then again you are low on DPS so the fight gets drawn out. And Prot pally self-healing is very high, so his effective dmg healed from the raid was only like 17M. (Mine is like 13.5M, for example) Your Warrior is just getting obliterated, and undoubtedly where healers running OOM is coming from. 30M dmg taken, and only 900k self-healing. That is an egregious amount of healing being required from the raid. He needs to be taking like Second Wind or some such other Regen ability for this fight.

    Here is our log for our Megaera kill tonight. 3 healer BRBRGRB. Raid a similar 505-510 ilvl as yours.

    Our log

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by hnoseguard View Post
    Obligatory World of Logs links for last night's attempts (I am the pally tank):

    worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bj81ql0g4psh2799/

    We seem to struggle with the blue head's ice beams, so most of the attempts we were only killing Red and Green heads. We tried with 3 heals and 4 heals, alternating healers out, we just couldn't down it. We can pretty consistently get to the 6th head, it seems like the final Rampage transition is what gets us, healers always run out of mana during Rampage or immediately after and then it's a wipe. We had 2 attempts where we got the 7th head to ~50% but I'm not sure how we're going to down this boss. Any ideas or suggestions would be much appreciated.
    We do red and green only, 2 heal it, are not that geared (I'm 509) overheal a bunch because we're tryharding to beat each other. We didn't use 4 raid healing cooldowns (boomkin Tranq, spriest Tranq, Healing Tide and Vamp Embrace), and I messed up my light's hammer timing and only got about half of the use out of it that I normally do.

    My point is that it is NOT HARD TO HEAL the green and red strategy. If poison bombs are draining your healers mana then either A) your raid needs to move further from them or B) your healers need to manage their mana better. I'd bet on the latter.

    Your paladin is using sacred shield (which is generally not wise) and its only doing 3% of his healing. Eternal flame not only is great HPET but better utilizes mastery shields by carrying them forward for the 30s duration of the hot. This effectively makes any overhealing you do 'better' by a large margin (though still don't go too crazy). His combined aoe healing from radiance, LoD and daybreak are only 2.3% of his healing... what is this I don't even.. 22 divine lights, only three of which on the beacon target for holy power. Holy light use is good, beacon is used effectively, I've seen MUCH worse paladins, but there are definitely some core things going wrong there.

    I expected to see really high overhealing from all 3 healers causing them to drain their mana, but that's not the case. Therefore either there is a problem with healing efficiency in general or people are dying to something specific. I don't know resto druids well but I do know they can burn through their mana fast if they dont play efficiently, and as I mentioned there are a few things hindering your paladin's efficiency as well.

    Overall, your group is taking more damage from acid rain than you should be. For your group, acid rain is doing the most damage to you of any ability, followed by melee, with all three rampages at a close third. For ours, acid rain comes in third after two of the rampages. Part of this is because of dps, which is low (and I'll get to that), but its partly because on average your raid members are taking far too much damage from each one because they're standing too close to them. For comparison, look at our average damage taken per acid bolt. I was intentionally standing way too close to almost all of them to boost my healing numbers, and since this fight is fairly easy our raid members don't move nearly as much as they could. Your raid doesn't have that luxury and needs to move a good 15-20 yards away from every one - especially your ranged who should be nowhere near them when they land.

    On to dps. I know our raid is probably a bit more geared than yours (we're maybe 515 average at this point I'd guess), but it doesnt look like anyone in your raid broke 100k on any of your attempts. This is essentially a single target fight, and I'd expect people up around 100k dps if they're about 500 ilvl.

    I'm not going to dig too deep into dps because I think your problems CAN be overcome with your current dps, but here we go:

    Your mage is arcane - arcane is not a viable raiding spec, period. Its damage is fine but it is way too immobile. Sorry friend, I wish they'd fix mages, but you really need to respec.

    You have one warlock doing 20k average less than the other. Affliction got nerfed, but its still one of the best dps specs. If you're having problems, ask the other warlock in the raid or head to the forums.

    Gonna extend that "head to the forums" for the rest of your dps, there's no good reason to be doing 60 or 70k dps on this fight. At low gear levels 80-90k is in the realm of acceptable, 70k is in the realm of 'wouldnt bring to a pug'.

    Sorry if some of this sounded harsh but that's just the truth. You definitely need to stop 4 healing it, I'd recommend continuing to 3 heal, but your dps needs to pick it up and your raid in general needs to move from acid bombs better.

  9. #29
    Are you using warlock gates? I'm not sure how I would find that in a World of Logs report. We had a bunch of trouble with poison bombs being dropped too close to tanks and melees until we dropped a warlock gate so that a couple people who didn't have movement abilities could stack quickly for Rampage then spread out again quickly for burn phase. It may seem like a little thing, but anything that makes movement easier gives you more time to dps.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninotchka View Post
    Are you using warlock gates? I'm not sure how I would find that in a World of Logs report.
    Look for the debuff. It's called Demonic Gateway.

  11. #31
    Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted and/or messaged me. We finally got Megaera down tonight. We ended up 3 healing it going G > R > G > R > BLUE > G > R. A couple of things that helped - our warrior tank increased her dps (she actually beat me by 12k dps on the kill attempt) and decreased her damage taken with more efficient use of banners and cooldowns, our affliction lock upped her dps about 10k, and we stopped tank swapping at 2 stacks and instead just tanked til the head was dead (I was always on red head when it was out).

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by hnoseguard View Post
    Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted and/or messaged me. We finally got Megaera down tonight. We ended up 3 healing it going G > R > G > R > BLUE > G > R. A couple of things that helped - our warrior tank increased her dps (she actually beat me by 12k dps on the kill attempt) and decreased her damage taken with more efficient use of banners and cooldowns, our affliction lock upped her dps about 10k, and we stopped tank swapping at 2 stacks and instead just tanked til the head was dead (I was always on red head when it was out).
    Not sure if it was my tips, but i'm glad to hear your warrior improved

    grats on the kill. Have fun on Ji-Kin and Durumu

  13. #33
    Having killed this boss g/r repeat till dead method on my geared main and g/r/b repeat till dead on my lesser geared alt I often wonder why people try and push the much, MUCH more healing intensive g/r ignore blue method on people struggling with this fight.

    g/r/b is way more easier for everyone overall ESPECIALLY healers! The beam does the least damage of the 3 heads mechanics and is the easiest to avoid.

    For anyone starting this fight and not coming into it covered with heroics from tier 14 I highly recommend 3 healing g/r/b/g/r/b/g

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