Horridon 10 Man Normal

[Deleted]

My guild has managed to kill this boss 3x on 10 Man normal, and after that we followed up with killing council, but now we are back to struggling and suffering on Horridon to a degree I didn't think possible. Our setup for the past 2 failed nights of wiping on him has been:

Healers: 1 resto druid, 2 disc/holy priests
Tanks: 1x warrior, 1x druid
Dps: 1x destro warlock, 1x fmage, 1x ret pala (me; easily the worst dps), 1x elemental shaman and 1x shadow priest

dps is all great (90 - 100+k)... I just feel that the sheer amount of stuff going on in this fight (interrupts, cleanses, dispells, decurses), as well as the damage going out on the raid, the sandtraps, orbs, interrupting venom priests, etc etc etc) leads me to believe it is just flat out over-tuned.

Can we get a blue to re-evaluate the statistics and feedback on this fight? I know the health of the adds and the boss has been nerfed already for 10 man normal, before anyone calls it out. How many of you guys feel this fight is tougher than it should be for a second boss in such a large raid dungeon?

Thoughts?

[Orgatt]

We are using 2 healers ( resto+disc), you could try that. More dps= less damage taken by raid... Also remember to pushback and snare the small adds in the third phase... You could even use bloodlust in third phase if ur having trouble there. You should also assign interupterters.

[Teekays]

I'm inclined to believe the 3 healing is more so harming than benefiting you. Mind you I only ever did the fight once on normal, and heroic every week since - but we never once used 3 healers. It just feels like doing it that way would make our raid take more damage than the way we are doing it now. More things to dispel, more interrupts needed, more cc needed, more everything - which is incredibly brutal on the 3rd door.

Give 2-healing a try if you have the comp for it.

[Deleted]

What.

Can someone explain to me, how can anyone struggle on boss they have killed three times already, while using the same tactics?

Well, i remember Madness of DW normal, while progressing around Blackthorn with too much dps and blistering tentacles spawning before corruption, but...

[Deleted]

We lost one of our best tanks (a paladin), so that might have contributed to the failures. I too suspect that the 3 healer setup is mauling our dps, but I am not in the position to make raid setup changes in my guild. We tried bloodlusting on the third door in our last attempt which is where we wiped every time tonight, and we didn't manage to grab the final door due to people dying to diseases not being removed.

[Femoris]

I don't believe the fight is tougher than it should be for the second boss in a raid that is the second tier of raiding for the expansion. Raids should get more difficult as the expansion progresses. The fight is fairly straight forward in what you need to do, people just need to make sure that they are taking care of their assigned role. You mentioned that you've down it three times. Has your group changed any since those kills? if so what are people doing different now that is causing you to wipe? I think most people are taken in by the ridiculousness of the first boss and how easy that is and then horridon being a big step up from that (the real problem is how easy the first boss is doesn't prepare people well for the second)

[omnibishop]

Can someone explain to me, how can anyone struggle on boss they have killed three times already, while using the same tactics?

Tactics are useful only if the raid make up and players remain the same. When something changes (like different healers, different dps, weaker healers) you might have to change tactics slightly.

I would imagine having two priests healing might be an issue regarding dispels. Work on interrupts on the venom priests instead to make sure not too much poison dots go out. If you say your dps is good, switch to 2 heals. The quicker the adds die, the less raid damage the healers need to worry about.

[Sesshou]

My thoughts are (1) no it doesn't need a nerf as it isn't really that hard at all after the nerf they already did and is easier than (or maybe equal to) council so you would just need that nerfed next and then the next boss and so on and (2) if you really want to get help on the forums, you have to provide a log.

Other than that, your dps sounds low even if that is dps before the doors are done. You should have at least 496-500 ilvl from valor, ToT LFR, and 4 weeks of Jinrokh normal (honestly 502-505 is probably pretty reasonable even if you assume no normal mode ToT loot past Jin and no heroic t14 gear). Your lock and priest should easily be doing 125k+ and everyone else except maybe the ret in the 110k range on the add phases (obviously far, far more if you count the burn at the end).

[Noctus78]

We follow a bit uncommon tactic, but delivers us very clean kills. we use 3 healers (1 disc priest that delivers a decent amount of dps)

We tank horridon on the opposite end of the arena in regards to the door that is opening (1 healer is with that tank). This makes him not charge anybody in the raid. so 1 ability less to deal with.
Further more we have an interrupt rotation for the second door (and the luck of having a monk healer that dispells the poison if we go wrong somewhere).

We usually have adds quite decently fast enough down, so that when we let Horridon charge the door we can put some dmg in him. This tactic makes the total fight a bit longer. but nothing to worry about enrage.


(door 3 can be brutal at times. but again we personally have some luck here having a DK tank using army of the dead that will take a lot of the mortal strikes.)


ps. remember about dps, it will skyrocket in the very last phase when he takes 200% extra dmg. so if you wipe before that phase, the dps on the meters might look low

[Soisoisoi]

So, you've killed it before, but now you can't... So it's over-tuned? o.O

No, it's not over-tuned at all. For starters, you don't have to handle all of the mechanics at the same time, and most of them are repeated throughout.

You tank the boss and avoid charge/Double Swipe throughout, you tank swap every time you swap gates.
For every gate you interrupt and bring the Dinomancer to low HP until he transforms.
For every gate you interrupt and kill a specific mob over the rest. e.g. Venom Priests. Then kill the rest.

Simple or "basic" fight mechanics all round. Tank swaps, interrupts, dispels, avoiding crap on the floor.

[Deleted]

I don't believe the fight is tougher than it should be for the second boss in a raid that is the second tier of raiding for the expansion. Raids should get more difficult as the expansion progresses. The fight is fairly straight forward in what you need to do, people just need to make sure that they are taking care of their assigned role. You mentioned that you've down it three times. Has your group changed any since those kills? if so what are people doing different now that is causing you to wipe? I think most people are taken in by the ridiculousness of the first boss and how easy that is and then horridon being a big step up from that (the real problem is how easy the first boss is doesn't prepare people well for the second)

I will wholeheartedly admit that we have significant co-ordination issues on some early attempts and that some of the new blood we've taken in recently simply isn't up to standard imho. We also lost a great tank due to IRL problems, and that seems to have impacted us also it would seem. However tonight for the most part we had a raidcrew that knew more or less what to do for each door - it's just that this time around things seemed to overwhelm the raid that much more. I admit that being a second tier raid it should require more co-ordination, better dps, better healing and more attentiveness to mechanics, and that it should be less forgiving to people who blatantly fuck up - I just have a nagging feeling it is ever so slightly overtuend.

That being said I am regretting not nagging for a 2 healer setup tonight. I think that might have helped a lot.

[Soisoisoi]

Read what you've wrote again, and ask yourself: Why should they nerf something because people are (as you said) blatantly fucking up?

It's not over-tuned, it's just your raid is doing it, uh... Wrong? I don't quite get why people would want to 'cheat' to win... What's the point in playing if you get it handed to you?

[Deleted]

My thoughts are (1) no it doesn't need a nerf as it isn't really that hard at all after the nerf they already did and is easier than (or maybe equal to) council so you would just need that nerfed next and then the next boss and so on and (2) if you really want to get help on the forums, you have to provide a log.

Other than that, your dps sounds low even if that is dps before the doors are done. You should have at least 496-500 ilvl from valor, ToT LFR, and 4 weeks of Jinrokh normal (honestly 502-505 is probably pretty reasonable even if you assume no normal mode ToT loot past Jin and no heroic t14 gear). Your lock and priest should easily be doing 125k+ and everyone else except maybe the ret in the 110k range on the add phases (obviously far, far more if you count the burn at the end).

Everyone in the raid has 500+ iLvl. The priest does 125k dps, as does lock and mage. I have the lowest dps being a retmonkey, and I rarely get above 85k dps, spikes to ~110k on large add packs. But if you follow forums and class discussion closely, you will know that even BiS ret paladins are far, far, far behind every other class for dps.

Also, it's nonsense to say one should require T14HC gear to progress on a raid that should have been tuned from normal to normal gear.

I cannot provide a log, I will gather one should we have more wipes as of tomorrow.

[Sesshou]

Everyone in the raid has 500+ iLvl. The priest does 125k dps, as does lock and mage. I have the lowest dps being a retmonkey, and I rarely get above 85k dps, spikes to ~110k on large add packs. But if you follow forums and class discussion closely, you will know that even BiS ret paladins are far, far, far behind every other class for dps.

Also, it's nonsense to say one should require T14HC gear to progress on a raid that should have been tuned from normal to normal gear.

I cannot provide a log, I will gather one should we have more wipes as of tomorrow.

No, it shouldn't require t14 heroic gear... I never said it does or it should. What I said was 502-505 was a reasonable item level assuming you did not have a single piece of t14 heroic gear. You didn't mention your actual ilvls so I was providing numbers based on the item level I think its fair to expect people to be up to at this point that are doing Horridon.

You also said 90-100k+ which I took to mean the average which would be low, but apparently you have 3 people over 125k which should be fine depending on what they are hitting which would require a log to look into. I would agree with you about ret on the add phases which is why I specifically excluded you from the 'should be doing 110k+' group as I don't think our rets do that much either, but hey, at least you can help with dispels?

[Deja Thoris]

Blue responses come from Blizzards employees, doubt they'll answer on a 3rd party website.

Anyway, you already annoyed half the people here by claiming a fight you've killed 3x is overtuned. Read one of the other 150 threads on the subject. Target prios and interupts are key. It's not chaotic at all. Theres very few targets that matter, focus on them. The fact that your dps spikes on aoe in the fight infers you may be treating this as an aoe fest, its not. The not standing in shit part is wow 101.

Anyway, as to your question. Its hard because its an awareness check, not a dps one. Ofc dps is always a factor but its secondary to mechanics, work the mechanics, the rest will take care of itself.

[TheEaterofSouls]

Are you guy's having "fun" with your progression? Are you enthusiastic about raiding atm? Having a drowned out mindset can really hinder your progression.

Also your saying that your really bad. That isn't the kind of attitude you should have. You guys should be working as a team. This sounds like less of a mechanic/dps issue and more of a "player's mindset" issue.

You guys may want to bring up this topic at a pre or post raid conversation.