Vol'jin on, "Why should we (Alliance) help you?" (5.3 spoilers)

[Thrall, son of Durotan]

People complained when there were no 'war' in Warcraft.
Now they complain when the leaders are actually showing some attitude towards the other factions, what do you people want?
All the current Horde leaders to turn neutral, and then they make new "alliance-hating-leaders"?

Jeez, Vol'jin is looking after his people/faction, of course he's not going to cuddle talk with the alliance.

EDIT:
The difference between Garrosh and Vol'jin as a potential Warchief is that Vol'jin will not be a racist towards the other races within the horde.
He know how the Horde was built up and is not going to let it fall apart like Garrosh is now doing.

[Immitis]

People complained when there were no 'war' in Warcraft.
Now they complain when the leaders are actually showing some attitude towards the other factions, what do you people want?
All the current Horde leaders to turn neutral, and then they make new "alliance-hating-leaders"?

Jeez, Vol'jin is looking after his people/faction, of course he's not going to cuddle talk with the alliance.

but the thing is he isnt really showing attitude, hes just telling a joke. is it a bit out of place and somewhat dark? sure but thats how trolls are, people need to realize that vol'jin is a troll not a human or a blood elf living in some fancy city

[Thrall, son of Durotan]

How do you know he's telling a joke tbh?
This is in my opinion showing attitude.

Right now they have the same goals, but when this is done they will go back to their differences.
The Horde will need resources etc, and there will be conflict between the factions.

[Immitis]

How do you know he's telling a joke tbh?
This is in my opinion showing attitude.

Right now they have the same goals, but when this is done they will go back to their differences.
The Horde will need resources etc, and there will be conflict between the factions.

because vol'jin has talked to anduin/varian before, hes also a close friend of thralls. varian once offered the horde resources to stop the fighting between the orcs and the night elves before, if they leave this civil war on better terms whos to say varian wont offer them resources again? (sans the kidnapping/assassination attempt by old god forces)

and the fact that he so quickly went from "we gone dump ye bodies in teh undercity brudda" to "lets work together mon" tells me he was joking and just trying to prove a point.

theres no reason to assume the horde and alliance would just go back to fighting each other (ignore battlegrounds since most of them arent real anyways) its more likely they would go back to the cold war era of vanilla albeit in a much more friendlier capacity.

especially if -insert random me gonna destroy world villain here- decides to show up before they get the chance to smack eachother

[Lastlivingsoul]

From an Alliance standpoint the most horrifying point of his speech was after the inevitable battle they would give the dead bodies to Sylvannas and curse those who fought bravely with undeath.

Not to diplomatic before asking for assistance either. Kinda telling an Israli solider if you attack without us we'll put all your friends in a prison after you're dead. BUT he does follow that remark with a statement saying "unless you have a better plan" to minimize bloodshed on both sides. It's not the friendliest deal but it is a solid logical solution to both party's problems. Its the best/(only) plan on the table also.

That said someone IS to mess this up on one side or the other before it is over. The question is will the other side have the balls to walk away.

[RabidHexley]

"If you don't like my plan go ahead on your own, you'll get screwed over and I can still win! Or we can just go with my plan and we both win. My plan's probably sounding a bit better now, right?"

Advocating cooperation. He's dealing with people who don't like or trust him, making it clear that they would be working together for the sole reason of having a shared goal is more believable than pretending to be friendly. I like this, because even though Vol'jin wasn't for the war, it would be silly to portray him as having any positive feelings for the Alliance.

[Flaks]

Yep, the Twilight Hammer were the ones, but there's been nothing that ever indicated either Alliance nor Horde figured out the truth. Beautifully executed, wasn't it?

There's a possibility that Hamuul might have pieced it together since he survived the druid slaughter by orcs who didn't seem to know who Garrosh was, but a single comment amidst battle can't really be determined as proof. It's like saying "Garrosh will be mad" and they response "Pfsh, Garrosh WHO? *stab!*" It doesn't really prove they aren't Horde orcs so much as they obviously don't care what Garrosh thinks.

Garrosh was shaping up to be a GOOD guy in Cataclysm. Retconning shit only makes the entire plot in this game worse and worse.

Also I just realized that if the Alliance just sat back and let the Horde rip itself apart then the good Horde could ALSO sit back and let Garrosh annihilate the Alliance.

[bohapjut]

Heh. Look at Illidan, Kael'thas, Garrosh. One moment they consider a different, new path, which would've made the story interesting, and next they are killing children, blasting manabombs, mutating themselves and enslaving everyone for the sake of world domination, just so that some righteous avenger would kill them soon.

There's very, very little space between jesus good and complete evil in this game. Sylvanas and Gallywix, thankfully, still are somewhere in between, but I fear for them. If they replace Gallywix with some kind soul, then goblins turn into green gnomes. Sylvanas... she's got a huge shadow, and the successor will be most likely lost somewhere in it. Lor'themar and Moira are still in question, perhaps even Vol'jin, depending on how the siege plays out. But the rest are cartoon heroes or decorations.

I think Fandral would've been a more interesting night elf leader than what they've made Tyrande into, he went down the same path as them though

[Haven]

I think Fandral would've been a more interesting night elf leader than what they've made Tyrande into, he went down the same path as them though

To be honest, Fandral's characterization was always that of an asshat, he didn't ever do anything positive (except for forcing the growth of Teldrassil). However, even a singing racoon with a banjo is still better than Tyrande...

[Pengalor]

All talk? Isn't he the one who organized this whole revolt? It's him everyone is rallying behind. Not Baine or Sylvanas or Lor'themar or even Thrall. Sometimes "talk" is what you need more of and it is talk Garrosh has done so very little of. He's all action and now his own people are kicking his door down. It's probably a good idea to wait and see what he does in 5.4 (not to mention his upcoming novel) before deciding he won't back up his words.

Not to mention not long ago he was...oh I don't know, almost dead. He's not at full-strength yet and the rebellion has just started. This is not the patch where he goes riding into battle so saying he's all talk is just complete nonsense.

[Arrashi]

To be honest, Fandral's characterization was always that of an asshat, he didn't ever do anything positive (except for forcing the growth of Teldrassil). However, even a singing racoon with a banjo is still better than Tyrande...

Well in vanilla she had apperance during green shard quest chain (she confronted eranicus) so she had at least one serious moment.

[Pengalor]

Garrosh was shaping up to be a GOOD guy in Cataclysm. Retconning shit only makes the entire plot in this game worse and worse.

Also I just realized that if the Alliance just sat back and let the Horde rip itself apart then the good Horde could ALSO sit back and let Garrosh annihilate the Alliance.

See: http://www.orcisharmyknife.com/2012/...-makes-no.html

It's entirely possible that there's a good reason he did a completely 180, and it may not even be entirely on him. We should wait until the end of the expansion before we claim that things were simply being retconned (which nothing has been yet anyway as far as I'm aware, the actions he took such as those in Stonetalon still happened).

[Mormolyce]

Garrosh was shaping up to be a GOOD guy in Cataclysm. Retconning shit only makes the entire plot in this game worse and worse.

He alternates with expansion.

BC - good guy
Wrath - bad guy
Cata - good guy
MoP - bad guy

[Buu]

HAHAHHAHHAHAHHA
Love his "it's my way, or the highway.... Mon".

Anyway the patience of Vol'Jin is growing thin with almighty can-do-all-by-themselves people. He was NEVER so assertive in the past.

I guess the Horde will have an Old Man as Leader, hopefully without the stigmatized title of warchief.

He alternates with expansion.

BC - good guy
Wrath - bad guy
Cata - good guy
MoP - bad guy

Horde player for ever, and I must disagree. Garrosh was ALWAYS painted as the inept guy. In BC he was Emo, then he tried to kill Green Jesus and seize control of the Horde. Arthas burned his plan.

In Wrath he was a dumbass that kept being a thorn on the side of Saurfang, and promoted bad behavior, as slavery and summary execution inside the Horde.

In Cataclysm he did the only good thing on his history promoting expansion and growth, but everything at the price of sacrifices and destruction, allowing diverse war crimes to go around, while people was looking at the other side worried with the end of the world.

As Deathwing fell and Pandaria was found his lack of grip and limitations reached a point no one can deny is too far.

But not in ANY expansion people said he was good, unless they were HATERS, that love to smash others, in which Garrosh was their messiah since Wrath.

[Talen]

You're ignoring INGAME evidence where Varian himself STATES that his intention is to allow the Orcs and Trolls wear one another down, then strike at BOTH.

The problem being this simply reinforces that the Allaicne participation is a mere sideshow, that the focus is ont eh Horde and that the Alliance isn't valued. VJs attitude here, sarcastic or not, is far from helpful because it is underscoring how little impact the Alliance forces will actually have.


When VJ needed help with the Zandalari, he went to the Alliance. Now that his tribe is once again under threat - he's busy insulting those who have helped him and threatening them with Sylvanas.

Put simply, the Alliance does not need to approach VJ nor should it need his permission to take part in this event.

Either VJ doesn't need Alliance help, in which case the attempt is meaningless, or he does, in which case VJ should be approaching Varian and NOT the other way around. Emphasising the lack of Alliance involvement in this story is not good.

Yes - its good that Varians is imply letting his enemies fight each other. Its bad that he feels some need to actually beg VJ for permission to take part. Because, underlying all this, the simple fact is that VJ and co are his enemies, and he has little reason to trust him. To have VJ ask the Alliance to somehow prove themselves to the Horde, the same Horde who believe in unprovoked attacks and worse, again underscores the Alliances sheer lack of character and involvement here.

Take the same story, but have VJ approach Varian - as he has done in the past - and have VJ put together a case for cooperation. Have VJ prove his trustworthiness. Story becomes far better and it puts the Alliance in a better position. They aren't asking permission to be let in on the fun; they're being approached because they are valued, because they are needed.

VJ being as snarky as he is? The Alliance effectively asking permission to join in on the fun? The Alliance being need to prove THEIR trustworthiness - AFTER rescuing one of VJs friends?

All of this underscores the statement "The Alliance is an add-on. It's help isn't needed."

Ideally, I think the Alliance should have its own campaign somewhere and not get involved with this beyond the odd scouting mission. Failing that, they really shouldn't be given a subservient role and beignt old they aren't needed, and bring little of value.

EJL

[SodiumChloride]

I still feel the biggest plot hole in this is, "Why should the rebellion trust the Alliance?".

There is no reason why the Alliance can't turn around and screw the rebels over at the end of the siege.

It would make more sense if the Alliance had to give "collateral" to earn said trust. The most convenient "collateral", to put it bluntly, would be Anduin as hostage. They can hold him in Silvermoon, it's a fairly comfortable place that is well defended so his safety is assured.

[Talen]

Garrosh was shaping up to be a GOOD guy in Cataclysm.

No, he wasn't.

Also I just realized that if the Alliance just sat back and let the Horde rip itself apart then the good Horde could ALSO sit back and let Garrosh annihilate the Alliance.

No, it couldn't. Garrosh isn't going to leave the "Good" horde alone.

EJL

[Haven]

Well in vanilla she had apperance during green shard quest chain (she confronted eranicus) so she had at least one serious moment.

And I missed it. Daaaaaaammit.

[Pengalor]

The problem being this simply reinforces that the Allaicne participation is a mere sideshow, that the focus is ont eh Horde and that the Alliance isn't valued. VJs attitude here, sarcastic or not, is far from helpful because it is underscoring how little impact the Alliance forces will actually have.


When VJ needed help with the Zandalari, he went to the Alliance. Now that his tribe is once again under threat - he's busy insulting those who have helped him and threatening them with Sylvanas.

Put simply, the Alliance does not need to approach VJ nor should it need his permission to take part in this event.

Either VJ doesn't need Alliance help, in which case the attempt is meaningless, or he does, in which case VJ should be approaching Varian and NOT the other way around. Emphasising the lack of Alliance involvement in this story is not good.

Yes - its good that Varians is imply letting his enemies fight each other. Its bad that he feels some need to actually beg VJ for permission to take part. Because, underlying all this, the simple fact is that VJ and co are his enemies, and he has little reason to trust him. To have VJ ask the Alliance to somehow prove themselves to the Horde, the same Horde who believe in unprovoked attacks and worse, again underscores the Alliances sheer lack of character and involvement here.

Take the same story, but have VJ approach Varian - as he has done in the past - and have VJ put together a case for cooperation. Have VJ prove his trustworthiness. Story becomes far better and it puts the Alliance in a better position. They aren't asking permission to be let in on the fun; they're being approached because they are valued, because they are needed.

VJ being as snarky as he is? The Alliance effectively asking permission to join in on the fun? The Alliance being need to prove THEIR trustworthiness - AFTER rescuing one of VJs friends?

All of this underscores the statement "The Alliance is an add-on. It's help isn't needed."

Ideally, I think the Alliance should have its own campaign somewhere and not get involved with this beyond the odd scouting mission. Failing that, they really shouldn't be given a subservient role and beignt old they aren't needed, and bring little of value.

EJL

Of course Vol'jin is being snarky, in context of the picture he is basically being second-guessed by a lesser character, much less one that is part of the Alliance. Also understand that Vol'jin is not only stressed (both from his close call with death and seeing his people being massacred) but he is also wary of the Alliance's aid. He is smart enough to know that with a large piece of the Horde destroyed and the Warchief displaced the Alliance would be in perfect position to overrun what remains of the splintered Horde. Make no mistake, this alliance (har har har) is tenuous at best, he is begrudgingly accepting help because he simply doesn't have a choice (which could also explain the attitude, a show of bravado because in reality the Darkspear are getting their asses saved here, he has to show his 'manliness' and show that he's not weak, if only for his own pride).

[bohapjut]

I still feel the biggest plot hole in this is, "Why should the rebellion trust the Alliance?".

There is no reason why the Alliance can't turn around and screw the rebels over at the end of the siege.

Do they have a choice?

It would make more sense if the Alliance had to give "collateral" to earn said trust. The most convenient "collateral", to put it bluntly, would be Anduin as hostage. They can hold him in Silvermoon, it's a fairly comfortable place that is well defended so his safety is assured.

No, the Alliance shouldn't hand over the crown prince as a prisoner of war to be allowed to attack their mutual enemy