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  1. #941
    Quote Originally Posted by Shengar View Post
    It's not about losing, it's about losing to give the Horde their story without ever come through for the Alliance.
    The Worgen get invided by Sylvanas, fight back, get told it's lost and get shipped of to Darnassus, end Worgen story, just to give Sylvanas her Silverpine story.
    The Alliance follow the whole of Stonetalon Mountains a bomb to try to stop it, to fail and see it drop on a Druid school, to give Garrosh some screen time.
    The Alliance are told they lost at Andorhal and are told to leave, to give Sylvanas some more screen time, after that we are questing for the Cenarionn Circle together with the Horde.
    While taking the whole expansion orders from an Orc, the former Warchief of your enemy.
    Where were the Alliance racial leaders at that time in the story? non-existant
    I do feel for you but lets face it, it was to build up the alliances hatred for the Horde and vice versa. It worked perfectly as in mop the fightings all over the shop.

  2. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by Shengar View Post
    It's not about losing, it's about losing to give the Horde their story without ever come through for the Alliance.
    The Worgen get invided by Sylvanas, fight back, get told it's lost and get shipped of to Darnassus, end Worgen story, just to give Sylvanas her Silverpine story.
    The Alliance follow the whole of Stonetalon Mountains a bomb to try to stop it, to fail and see it drop on a Druid school, to give Garrosh some screen time.
    The Alliance are told they lost at Andorhal and are told to leave, to give Sylvanas some more screen time, after that we are questing for the Cenarionn Circle together with the Horde.
    As I said, the lost of land is to balance out faction territory.

    Sylvanas got as much story time as the Worgen race. Don't know about the Stonetalon Mountains, never levelled through there on any or my characters. Andorhal, same thing, it's to balance out the land.

    While taking the whole expansion orders from an Orc, the former Warchief of your enemy.
    I took orders from Malfurion. Don't see me bitching about it. Wish they would redo his look though, he kind of looks like a giant chicken. >.>

    Where were the Alliance racial leaders at that time in the story? non-existant
    Some chapters focus more on some characters than others. It's part and parcel of story telling.

  3. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    So it is because you lost a few battles ... >.>

    That's kind of a dumb reason to be pissed. Now I'm not denying that Blizzard's story telling is pretty horrible. If you were pissed at the poor plot (rather than because you didn't "win") I could understand that. But from your reactions, you just seem pissed that your faction didn't win enough, that it's OK if the plot is messed up as long as it's messed up in your favour ...

    Anyway the change in land controlled is to balance out the levelling zones of both factions. Blizzard gave the Alliance too much land in vanilla. This is actually bad for both factions. Horde players will be bored to death looking at the same scenery for levels on end while Alliance would have to travel a ton. It's a headache for quest designers too. So don't take it to hard, it's just a "game design device" hamfisted into the already crappy plot.

    In summary, I have to say, between unbelievable plot twists, sudden and poorly justified characterisation changes of major lore characters and the B-movie grade presentation (Seriously, is anyone directing the cutscenes and voice work?), Blizzard is doing a terrible job in bring the players along for the ride story-wise.
    No, the fact that we lost a few (read: all) battles due to utter bullshit plot contrivance simply rubs salt in the wound of being neglected story-wise. The story you experienced going through Cataclysm consisted of being tacked on to Horde stories. The most egregious example was probably that god-awful questline where you have to put Thrall (I'm sorry: GO'EL!) back together, all the while wanting to stab Aggra in the fucking soul. And why? So he can get hitched, all the while being cheered on by OUR faction leaders, many of whom have ample reason to not be overly fond of him. And then we go on to -again- help Thrall save the entire goddamned world, basically holding the Horde's founder's coat and mopping up after him.It's a completely Horde-centric storyline, that Alliance players just happen to be allowed to see. That is what people predicted the Siege would be as soon as the news broke a year ago. And despite some (very few) hopeful signs, it indeed seems to be going in that direction.

    The balance in leveling zones is not true; the Horde has a bigger presence in more zones now on both continents. And again, it wouldn't have been nearly as grating if there'd been actual balance in storytelling. As it is, it's another straw on the camel's back.

  4. #944
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    So it is because you lost a few battles ... >.>
    But that isn't what I said... the lost battle are what happened, story wise how the loses happened is the issue. The one victory the Alliance were given painting them in a negative light is the issue. NOT THE LOSES THEMSELVES.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    That's kind of a dumb reason to be pissed. Now I'm not denying that Blizzard's story telling is pretty horrible. If you were pissed at the poor plot (rather than because you didn't "win") I could understand that. But from your reactions, you just seem pissed that your faction didn't win enough, that it's OK if the plot is messed up as long as it's messed up in your favour ...
    You are just reading what you want from what I said. again to reiterate, the loses are not an issue, how they happened is.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Anyway the change in land controlled is to balance out the levelling zones of both factions. Blizzard gave the Alliance too much land in vanilla. This is actually bad for both factions. Horde players will be bored to death looking at the same scenery for levels on end while Alliance would have to travel a ton. It's a headache for quest designers too. So don't take it to hard, it's just a "game design device" hamfisted into the already crappy plot.
    I completely get why the land changes happened. I already said as much. At Blizzcon they announced a bunch of the zone changes and told the players that South Shore had been hit by a tidal wave which wiped out the town and the Undead then took that opportunity to solidify their hold on the zone. Then they changed it to the Horde War machine took the town by force unopposed. Why the need for the change? Why did they have to give another example of how awesome the Horde military is? Why did they not have any reference to the lose for Alliance players? The Alliance doesn't even acknowledge they have lost territory. Again its how they are telling the story that is the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    In summary, I have to say, between unbelievable plot twists, sudden and poorly justified characterisation changes of major lore characters and the B-movie grade presentation (Seriously, is anyone directing the cutscenes and voice work?), Blizzard is doing a terrible job in bring the players along for the ride story-wise.
    This we can agree on at least.

  5. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    The most egregious example was probably that god-awful questline where you have to put Thrall (I'm sorry: GO'EL!) back together, all the while wanting to stab Aggra in the fucking soul. And why? So he can get hitched, all the while being cheered on by OUR faction leaders, many of whom have ample reason to not be overly fond of him. And then we go on to -again- help Thrall save the entire goddamned world, basically holding the Horde's founder's coat and mopping up after him.It's a completely Horde-centric storyline, that Alliance players just happen to be allowed to see.
    Alliance hero goes neutral? HORDE BIAS!

    Horde hero goes neutral? HORDE BIAS!

    The logic is killing me.



  6. #946
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    Alliance hero goes neutral? HORDE BIAS!

    Horde hero goes neutral? HORDE BIAS!

    The logic is killing me.
    Apparently, your logic is already dead. When did I mention an Alliance hero? Or anything about going neutral? Did you just click on a random post or something?

  7. #947
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    Apparently, your logic is already dead. When did I mention an Alliance hero? Or anything about going neutral? Did you just click on a random post or something?
    How exactly was the Thrall stuff Horde then, if I may ask? He officially renounced his position as Warchief to help out the Earthen Ring, a group of unalligned shaman.

    Where is the Horde in that?



  8. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    How exactly was the Thrall stuff Horde then, if I may ask? He officially renounced his position as Warchief to help out the Earthen Ring, a group of unalligned shaman.

    Where is the Horde in that?
    Bullshit. He's the founder of the 'New' Horde, the one who broke the Orcs out of the internment camps, led them over the sea, earned the loyalty of both the Tauren and the Darkspear. He's the most iconic Horde character in the Warcraft universe. Every Horde player who cares about the story (especially those that played WC3) consider him 'their' Warchief. He can give up the position, but he will always be a Horde character. Him joining the Earthen Ring is a pathetic attempt to give him a veneer of neutrality, which falls utterly flat. Except, apparently, with people desperate to deny the continuous shafting of the Alliance players story-wise.

    It's also a total lie. He may not be Warchief anymore, but he still looks out for their interests. When Theramore was nuked, he couldn't be arsed to do something about it, despite the fact that Garrosh enslaved molten giants to do his bidding. But when Jaina enslaves water elementals to give Orgrimmar a permanent cleanup, suddenly he springs into action.

    Earthen Ring my ass, he's still a Hordie. Just more hypocritical than most,

  9. #949
    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    Bullshit. He's the founder of the 'New' Horde, the one who broke the Orcs out of the internment camps, led them over the sea, earned the loyalty of both the Tauren and the Darkspear. He's the most iconic Horde character in the Warcraft universe. Every Horde player who cares about the story (especially those that played WC3) consider him 'their' Warchief. He can give up the position, but he will always be a Horde character. Him joining the Earthen Ring is a pathetic attempt to give him a veneer of neutrality, which falls utterly flat. Except, apparently, with people desperate to deny the continuous shafting of the Alliance players story-wise.

    It's also a total lie. He may not be Warchief anymore, but he still looks out for their interests. When Theramore was nuked, he couldn't be arsed to do something about it, despite the fact that Garrosh enslaved molten giants to do his bidding. But when Jaina enslaves water elementals to give Orgrimmar a permanent cleanup, suddenly he springs into action.

    Earthen Ring my ass, he's still a Hordie. Just more hypocritical than most,
    I won't argue that some alliance feel aggrieved over horde bias. BUT about theramore Thrall was busy trying to heal the world still. He didn't realize Garrosh was going to go so far until after the bomb dropped. When he then learned what Jaina was going to do he did what he could to try and stop her.

    He only came in to stop jaina when he learned what actually happened. Prior to the battle he had no knowledge of molten giants or the mana bomb. Don't paint it in the wrong way.

  10. #950
    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    No, the fact that we lost a few (read: all) battles due to utter bullshit plot contrivance simply rubs salt in the wound of being neglected story-wise. The story you experienced going through Cataclysm consisted of being tacked on to Horde stories. The most egregious example was probably that god-awful questline where you have to put Thrall (I'm sorry: GO'EL!) back together, all the while wanting to stab Aggra in the fucking soul. And why? So he can get hitched, all the while being cheered on by OUR faction leaders, many of whom have ample reason to not be overly fond of him. And then we go on to -again- help Thrall save the entire goddamned world, basically holding the Horde's founder's coat and mopping up after him.It's a completely Horde-centric storyline, that Alliance players just happen to be allowed to see. That is what people predicted the Siege would be as soon as the news broke a year ago. And despite some (very few) hopeful signs, it indeed seems to be going in that direction.

    The balance in leveling zones is not true; the Horde has a bigger presence in more zones now on both continents. And again, it wouldn't have been nearly as grating if there'd been actual balance in storytelling. As it is, it's another straw on the camel's back.
    Why would Alliance leaders hate Thrall? He is a god-damn saint compared to this predecessors and (in hindsight) his successor.

    Full cooperative when it came to helping end world destroying threats, Old Gods, Lich King, Deathwing ... etc

    This is the other thing. Why all the faction leader hate? Especially from the faction that considers themselves the good guys; there sure is a lot of vemon coming from your camp.

    Don't see the Horde players kicking up a fess over help Malfurion ...

    The only leaders I personally had issues with were King Chin and New Jaina. King Chin was kind of an ass initially, but appears to be more reasonable now. Jaina just more or less lost her marbles, although she does seem to have calmed down somewhat recently.

    What did Thrall ever do to you?

  11. #951
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    He can give up the position, but he will always be a Horde character. Him joining the Earthen Ring is a pathetic attempt to give him a veneer of neutrality, which falls utterly flat. Except, apparently, with people desperate to deny the continuous shafting of the Alliance players story-wise.
    I dig that, I dig that a lot. I haven't once in this thread said the Alliance story couldn't use improvement. However, claiming Thrall's story in Cata was obviously Horde is just stupid. It's about the same as claiming Hyjal was Alliance-centred because it had Malfurion (one of the biggest Alliance race lore figures in WC3).

    You could have realised that if you weren't so busy attacking me for correcting a daft, pointless argument that keeps popping up despite being flimsy at best.



  12. #952
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    Pretty sure this thread has now covered every tired ass lore argument that has ever existed.
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  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Pretty sure this thread has now covered every tired ass lore argument that has ever existed.
    Did we point out that the night elves blew up the planet? Just checking.
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  14. #954
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    No, the fact that we lost a few (read: all) battles due to utter bullshit plot contrivance simply rubs salt in the wound of being neglected story-wise. The story you experienced going through Cataclysm consisted of being tacked on to Horde stories. The most egregious example was probably that god-awful questline where you have to put Thrall (I'm sorry: GO'EL!) back together, all the while wanting to stab Aggra in the fucking soul. And why? So he can get hitched, all the while being cheered on by OUR faction leaders, many of whom have ample reason to not be overly fond of him. And then we go on to -again- help Thrall save the entire goddamned world, basically holding the Horde's founder's coat and mopping up after him.It's a completely Horde-centric storyline, that Alliance players just happen to be allowed to see. That is what people predicted the Siege would be as soon as the news broke a year ago. And despite some (very few) hopeful signs, it indeed seems to be going in that direction.

    The balance in leveling zones is not true; the Horde has a bigger presence in more zones now on both continents. And again, it wouldn't have been nearly as grating if there'd been actual balance in storytelling. As it is, it's another straw on the camel's back.
    The typical Fallacy of every near-sighted fanboy on the net.

    "We're not winning, this means the story is not centered on US"

    I bet you complained when southshore was destroyed.

  15. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    Did we point out that the night elves blew up the planet? Just checking.
    Yep, also how the drenai are space monsters because they were being followed by the legion!

    I think the only thing not covered was whos more powerful Sarageras or Old gods. BEGIN!

  16. #956
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    He can give up the position, but he will always be a Horde character. Him joining the Earthen Ring is a pathetic attempt to give him a veneer of neutrality, which falls utterly flat. Except, apparently, with people desperate to deny the continuous shafting of the Alliance players story-wise.
    Earthen Ring my ass, he's still a Hordie. Just more hypocritical than most,
    So basically.

    We can count Tirion Fordring as an Alliance Hero
    Akama and Maiev as Alliance Heroes.
    Brann Bronzebeard as an Alliance hero
    Most of the cenarion circle as Alliance heroes, including Malfurion.

    So basically, most of Vanilla and TBC kinda just revolved around the Alliance Plus Blood Elves?

  17. #957
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Yep, also how the drenai are space monsters because they were being followed by the legion!

    I think the only thing not covered was whos more powerful Sarageras or Old gods. BEGIN!
    I could've sworn that was covered too. Maybe it was a different thread.

    My chips are on the old gods.
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  18. #958
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I could've sworn that was covered too. Maybe it was a different thread.

    My chips are on the old gods.
    If it wasn't then it is now muhahahahaha

    Also I don't think Akama at that point in TBC would count as an alliance Hero, his forces of the ashtongue were sworn to Sillydan until we helped him Rebel. Although I would admit I don't know what he has done post TBC they may well be apart of the Alliance now.

  19. #959
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Then again, he slaughtered them and their demigod.

    Which is why victory over Garrosh is meaningless. The Horde will not become any stronger or weaker. We all know in advance that we're safe from Alliance finishing Horde altogether once they're in Orgrimmar, and we know that with Garrosh or without him things will be the same. Just not as fun.
    They would be stronger actually. Garrosh being a tyrant makes the horde weaker as a whole, and a new Warchief would likely unite them again.
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  20. #960
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeothecat View Post
    They would be stronger actually. Garrosh being a tyrant makes the horde weaker as a whole, and a new Warchief would likely unite them again.
    Well, weaker than pre-late-Wrath, stronger than currently (counting the Kor'kron loyalists only, without the uh... special enhancements).



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