Vol'jin on, "Why should we (Alliance) help you?" (5.3 spoilers)

[Ramz]

You know what will save countless alliance lives? The alliance pulling out of that rebellion and an truce with the disrespectfull stinky troll and waiting till the horde clashes against itself, destroying itself, then swooping in after the party is over and everyone is dead-drunk, finishing off the horde as a whole.

OMG, He was shown disrespect to One minor soldier, big deal. Stop blowing this out of proportion. Just because he silenced one stupid soldier becuase he was in no mood for explaining things, doesn't mean he disrespects the faction. He did warned Alliance of Zanadalari Rise- although he could leave it be. So why to say such a thing? That's completely different measure, and you know what?

Am happy to finally see a leader who is not in mood to chip-chat with enemies, but made a sharp comment, to stop ridiculous speculation.

[Octavius]

The wisest thing to do should be to help the rebellion with supplies and weapons so they can restist harder, then wait. Helping the rebellion only if Garrosh's getting the upper hand. But Varian is a good king and a good person, so we will see a vast alliance army (not the whole alliance army, Impossible) in the end aiding the darkspear and probably tauren and belfs.

[bohapjut]

So from Florena's post they put a rebuttal to him in the new PTR, does that satisfy you?

---

Player: [Call his bluff] Why don't WE wait until YOU attack Orgrimmar, and then mop up YOUR dead?

Vol'jin sees his opportunity slipping away. He holds up his hands. "Wait now, <race>! Orgrimmar be a fortress. My people, we ain't gonna crack dat nut on our own. How long we gonna last out here? Days? Weeks? Vol'jin can't say. You keep da supplies comin', an' I promise, more Kor'kron gonna die. Before ya troops even land! The blood bein' spilt ain't even ya own! Surely dat be worth a few crates of meat?

[Honeyprime]

So from Florena's post they put a rebuttal to him in the new PTR, does that satisfy you?

---

Player: [Call his bluff] Why don't WE wait until YOU attack Orgrimmar, and then mop up YOUR dead?

Vol'jin sees his opportunity slipping away. He holds up his hands. "Wait now, <race>! Orgrimmar be a fortress. My people, we ain't gonna crack dat nut on our own. How long we gonna last out here? Days? Weeks? Vol'jin can't say. You keep da supplies comin', an' I promise, more Kor'kron gonna die. Before ya troops even land! The blood bein' spilt ain't even ya own! Surely dat be worth a few crates of meat?

I saw that. It now makes me think Vol'jin wasn't being completely sarcastic.

Here is a link to Florena's post Dezarus is referring to if anyone is interested:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...n-5-3-Spoilers

[Talen]

Why is the Alliance PC is being a douche to Vol'jin when he offers a second front against Garrosh, saving countless Alliance lives?

Because Garrosh is telling him, the person who he helped address the Zandalari issue with open faced distaste and hatred and suspicion? Because the two sides are at war and Vol'jin and his people were willing members of the same army who has killed thousands? Because he wants to Trolls are not laying a trap?

As I've said before, if THAT is Vol'jin response, if the events of the Zandalari incursion mean nothing to him, then he has already proven he is unworthy of trust.

As it is, that is a stupid question for the Alliance player to ask. Incredibly stupid. If he didn't trust Vol'jin why is he approaching him? Offerignt o aid him? Asking to join his fight. It's not a douchy question. It's a stupid question. It would fit IF Vol'jin approach the Alliance...but NOT the other way around. Or one the Alliance player should ask Amber and Scully BEFORE he goes walking into the midst of an armed bunch of Trolls.

That, however, doesn't excuse the sheer stupidity and idiocy of Vol'jins response. It is also VERY out of character for him. And THAT point is only emphasises in turn by Blizzards "counter bluff".

Making the Alliance look like an afterthought is bad. Making Vol'jin look like an idiot is bad. This does both.

Varian wants that, the SI:7 team wants that, only the Alliance PC brainless strategist douche doesn't grasp that concept and Vol'jin calls his/hers crap.

Varian and the SI7 team want the Trolls to fight Garrosh for them. Great.

Is there ANY reason why this involves the Alliance player effectively signing up to fight for Vol'jin? To accept his orders? To earn his trust in a relationship where Vol'jin just stated no trust can be earned? To actually do anything except agree on a time and place to deliver supplies?

No, there isn't.

And that is the issue here. The Alliance is coming across as an afterthought. Blizzard has given them no in game reason to get involved. The idea for getting the trolls to die in the Alliances stead is a good one. What's missing is a reason for the Alliance to fight alongside him when the entire point is to get Troll soldiers to die and not you. You are being told..."Here's a Horde plot line that involves Trolls. Go play with it".

The basic plot is sound. They way it has been handled is not.

EJL

[muto]

That goes COMPLETELY against his attitude he's had in the past.

Seems like they're just building him up to be an Alliance hater to be the new warchief, to be honest.

A non-orc will never be Warchief of the Horde, mark my words.

[Deleted]

The entire situation could had been played out better. Why is there no seperate line where he remembers you that you've aided him in the past? Why is there an option about the player being an ass as well without a diplomatic thought at all (could that not be asked to the alliance honcho before going to the trolls?). Voljin's reaction is now completely out of whack with the rebuttal even in, was he not supposed to be wise? He could have replied in a way that the Alliance player could not refuse.

There is so much potential with the prelude towards Siege of Ogrimmar, yet so many of them not taken.

- king chin being more active, fighting along moria instead letting the champions do the work and at the end come back feels so...detached..Its just like, hes just put there as plot but it could had been replaced by anything really. Might as well had been a walking cookiemonster. The character development alliance side feels artificial. Its just...there for the sake of it
- Have a reason for Alliance to accept the aid of the rebellion. Like scenario's where you assaulted a small frontbase of dark shaman experimenting with mogu fleshcrafting or other forbidden magics. Give the Alliance a reason to fear that time is running short (like Nazi secret weapon development) AND that the discovery disgusts both sides. It could be a scenario that works for both sides. To give it a short breakdown..

- Horde has the rebellion, Alliance robocat? I know that spying is one of the things but it feels so...lacking. Why not:
a) Voljin's spy discovers Garrosh's secret facility where forbidden tech is practiced out that would disgust horde as alliance players.
b) Voljin's spy also discover that Garrosh is tampering with the heart and that the time might run short. The longer the wait is the smaller the chance of success. Voljin then sends out an "incognito letter" to Alliance leadership. (if player assisted Voljin during zandalari incursion, allow letter to be sent private as well) He knows perfectly well that this is something the Alliance leadership simply cannot refuse and that it would reduce casualties on their people.
c) Alliance leadership gets the letter, let the panda leader of the faction and some alliance honcho investigate. Voljin does the same and asks the panda leader on horde side to meet up with them.
(now you have them in character development too!)
d) Both meet up, interesting rp between the panda leaders strained, the alliance/horde captain more distrust.
e) scenario, where both sides discovers the horrors/atrocities + time is running out. Both have to work together just to survive.
f) report findings to Alliance and Voljin. Now both sides have a reason to wear Garrosh down. Now King chin has a more valid reason to send Alliance champions to assist the horde rebellion due time limit. The threat of Garrosh is serious enough that it allows Voljin to dictate some terms to the Alliance side (need the horde rebellion to slow down Garrosh and buying Varian more time to prepare an invasion force. Under those terms Varian then has to agree that Ogrimmar will stay under Horde control)

New content could involve for Alliance / Horde side:
- preparing the invasion. Sabotaging keypoints of defence
- Alliance could have a scenario where the leadership decides to attack several keypoints to spread Garrosh forces, easing the stress put on the Rebellion.
- forward fleet encountering horde interceptors with krakens/batriders/stronghold towards oggrimar by sea. Scenario involves in taking down the blokade so it allows for 5.4 beachlanding.

There could had been so much more potential for 5.3...Now instead the Alliance force appears magically at the horizon with dailies making a new hub/beachlanding. Why not make it possible to lead that way in 5.3 already?

[Florena]

The entire situation could had been played out better. Why is there no seperate line where he remembers you that you've aided him in the past? Why is there an option about the player being an ass as well without a diplomatic thought at all (could that not be asked to the alliance honcho before going to the trolls?). Voljin's reaction is now completely out of whack with the rebuttal even in, was he not supposed to be wise? He could have replied in a way that the Alliance player could not refuse.

There is so much potential with the prelude towards Siege of Ogrimmar, yet so many of them not taken.

- king chin being more active, fighting along moria instead letting the champions do the work and at the end come back feels so...detached..Its just like, hes just put there as plot but it could had been replaced by anything really. Might as well had been a walking cookiemonster. The character development alliance side feels artificial. Its just...there for the sake of it
- Have a reason for Alliance to accept the aid of the rebellion. Like scenario's where you assaulted a small frontbase of dark shaman experimenting with mogu fleshcrafting or other forbidden magics. Give the Alliance a reason to fear that time is running short (like Nazi secret weapon development) AND that the discovery disgusts both sides. It could be a scenario that works for both sides. To give it a short breakdown..

- Horde has the rebellion, Alliance robocat? I know that spying is one of the things but it feels so...lacking. Why not:
a) Voljin's spy discovers Garrosh's secret facility where forbidden tech is practiced out that would disgust horde as alliance players.
b) Voljin's spy also discover that Garrosh is tampering with the heart and that the time might run short. The longer the wait is the smaller the chance of success. Voljin then sends out an "incognito letter" to Alliance leadership. (if player assisted Voljin during zandalari incursion, allow letter to be sent private as well) He knows perfectly well that this is something the Alliance leadership simply cannot refuse and that it would reduce casualties on their people.
c) Alliance leadership gets the letter, let the panda leader of the faction and some alliance honcho investigate. Voljin does the same and asks the panda leader on horde side to meet up with them.
(now you have them in character development too!)
d) Both meet up, interesting rp between the panda leaders strained, the alliance/horde captain more distrust.
e) scenario, where both sides discovers the horrors/atrocities + time is running out. Both have to work together just to survive.
f) report findings to Alliance and Voljin. Now both sides have a reason to wear Garrosh down. Now King chin has a more valid reason to send Alliance champions to assist the horde rebellion due time limit. The threat of Garrosh is serious enough that it allows Voljin to dictate some terms to the Alliance side (need the horde rebellion to slow down Garrosh and buying Varian more time to prepare an invasion force. Under those terms Varian then has to agree that Ogrimmar will stay under Horde control)

New content could involve for Alliance / Horde side:
- preparing the invasion. Sabotaging keypoints of defence
- Alliance could have a scenario where the leadership decides to attack several keypoints to spread Garrosh forces, easing the stress put on the Rebellion.
- forward fleet encountering horde interceptors with krakens/batriders/stronghold towards oggrimar by sea. Scenario involves in taking down the blokade so it allows for 5.4 beachlanding.

There could had been so much more potential for 5.3...Now instead the Alliance force appears magically at the horizon with dailies making a new hub/beachlanding. Why not make it possible to lead that way in 5.3 already?

I admit that they could have done more with Alliance such as some sabotage quests. But...

1. Varian not being as active as you'd like? That's the case with EVERY LORE CHARACTER EVER. Why aren't the Shado Pan in the Throne of Thunder with us? Why did the avengers of hyjal give no aid in the Firelands until the last phase of heroic rag? Because in most cases, gameplay mechanics trump lore. Varian's role in things was fine, and people dislike having to escort npcs.

2. We already have a reason to help the rebellion. By giving Vol'jin supplies we steal from the Kor'kron, he can then use said supplies to kill more Kor'kron. Thinning Garrosh's ranks, and he can eventually help us land in Bladefist Bay. Without a single drop of Alliance blood being shed canonically, we weaken help weaken Garrosh's hold on Durotar and thin the ranks of the Kor'Kron before we even land, saving Alliance lives after we do invade. That's plenty reason for me, though I would have liked a couple of sabotaging quests to go along with it. The Alliance HAS to invade Orgrimmar sooner or later if they want to stop Garrosh, and the rebellion can't do that on their own. If we wait and do nothing, then Garrosh crushes the rebellion. By getting him supplies, we get this one chance to land an invaison force against a weakened Kor'kron right on Garrosh's doorstep instead of having to fight through Azshara or the Barrens and Durotar to get there. If we do nothing, the rebellion gets crushed or driven into hiding, Garrosh resecures Durotar, and Alliance loses this one chance to save Alliance lives in the long run.

imo the only problem with 5.3 is they should have given the Alliance a couple more quests in Durotar, sabotaging the kor'kron defenses in stealth missions. Story wise I think it's just fine.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 01:49 AM ----------

I saw that. It now makes me think Vol'jin wasn't being completely sarcastic.

Here is a link to Florena's post Dezarus is referring to if anyone is interested:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...n-5-3-Spoilers

I don't think he was ever being sarcastic, I think it was bluff from a troll who knows he's in a tight spot but didn't want to admit it to a potential enemy if he could avoid it, so he tried bluffing. When that doesn't work he comes clean and swallows his pride.

[Deleted]

I admit that they could have done more with Alliance such as some sabotage quests. But...

1. Varian not being as active as you'd like? That's the case with EVERY LORE CHARACTER EVER. Why aren't the Shado Pan in the Throne of Thunder with us? Why did the avengers of hyjal give no aid in the Firelands until the last phase of heroic rag? Because in most cases, gameplay mechanics trump lore. Varian's role in things was fine, and people dislike having to escort npcs.

It is true that every lore character is not as active, but does this becomes then the very reason or argument NOT to improve it in the feature? For a troll incursion they could have made that king varian holds the line with the forces against the enemy. Just anything instead of appearing at the intro and outro after you've done all the work. Let put it this way: he could had been replaced with an Alliance envoy. And was it not that blizzard wanted to develop him more?

2. We already have a reason to help the rebellion. By giving Vol'jin supplies we steal from the Kor'kron, he can then use said supplies to kill more Kor'kron. Thinning Garrosh's ranks, and he can eventually help us land in Bladefist Bay. Without a single drop of Alliance blood being shed canonically, we weaken help weaken Garrosh's hold on Durotar and thin the ranks of the Kor'Kron before we even land, saving Alliance lives after we do invade. That's plenty reason for me, though I would have liked a couple of sabotaging quests to go along with it. The Alliance HAS to invade Orgrimmar sooner or later if they want to stop Garrosh, and the rebellion can't do that on their own. If we wait and do nothing, then Garrosh crushes the rebellion. By getting him supplies, we get this one chance to land an invaison force against a weakened Kor'kron right on Garrosh's doorstep instead of having to fight through Azshara or the Barrens and Durotar to get there. If we do nothing, the rebellion gets crushed or driven into hiding, Garrosh resecures Durotar, and Alliance loses this one chance to save Alliance lives in the long run.

That might be dandy and fine but the Alliance questline in 5.3 just suffers from this. My reasoning was to involve the player more with the war, to make it that it actually matters for the Alliance side gameplay wise. It was NEVER questioning about the reason, but with the CURRENT implentation of Alliance questline content it looks like we're just riding along while it COULD had been made so that both sides could feel important.

[Yogg-Saron, God of Death]

I don't really think Varian needs more of a spotlight though, after he's already shown his superiority to an ancient race of amazonian elves with his splendid.. what.. 30 years of experience? Sorry, while I think there are Alliance characters that deserve a better spotlight.

Velen, Mekkatorque, Tyrande (- without the spotlight being in the form of degradation this time-) and the Council of Three Hammers all deserve it more than Lo'GoshChin does.

[Schaden]

Or the Alliance can watch Garrosh unleash more WMDs.

Theramore, anyone ? Alliance/Horde have been at war but only Garrosh literally nuked an entire city. Or maybe you'd rather the Horde keep the leader who has no problems murdering non-combatants.

Dunno if this has been corrected yet, but...

Theramore was a military installation, Jaina admitted that much. Also, no civilians died in Theramore due to Baine warning Jaina about the bomb.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:02 AM ----------

Again, we should let the Darkspear start off. Let them break themselves on the defenders. Let them make the entrance for us. Then once they're broken, we come in, finish Vol'jin off ourselves--to prevent a future threat from rising--and then turn our attention to Orgrimmar. We don't need to do anything until after the Darkspear have wasted their lives weakening Garrosh's power base.

We're not the ones in open rebellion, after all.

That's exactly what they're doing. The Rebellion is taking Razor Hill first to draw Garrosh's attention to the gates and bring his ground troops to bear away from the bay where the Alliance will attack. The Rebellion is taking the greatest risk and also shouldering the greatest potential loss by being the ones to wage the ground battle. The Alliance in their ships have little to no risk in this plan. If the bay isn't open, they don't attack and don't lose people. If its open, they're gonna steamroll it.

I swear, this thread is as bad as the Story Forums on the official WoW site. If the npcs, the writers, the devs are directly kissing Alliance feet, nothing is ever good enough.

Vol'jin can be diplomatic, but he doesn't have to be nice. Its like everybody conveniently forgets that the Alliance and Kul Tiras tried to annihilate the Darkspear twice before Garrosh ever became Warchief. He has no reason to be nice and kiss the boots of a random Alliance soldier.

[Dreknar20]

It is true that every lore character is not as active, but does this becomes then the very reason or argument NOT to improve it in the feature? For a troll incursion they could have made that king varian holds the line with the forces against the enemy. Just anything instead of appearing at the intro and outro after you've done all the work. Let put it this way: he could had been replaced with an Alliance envoy. And was it not that blizzard wanted to develop him more?

Like Florena said, we as the players are the heroes, not lore characaters. We are the ones that kill and solve everything, not them.
We cant very well have them charging in and roflstomin everything, else we wouldnt have content.
It is a game after all, not a book.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:23 AM ----------

I swear, this thread is as bad as the Story Forums on the official WoW site. If the npcs, the writers, the devs are directly kissing Alliance feet, nothing is ever good enough. .

I dont see what the Alliance are gettin so worked up about.
They are preping to slaughter the Horde and invade the heartland of the Horde, their long time enemies and rivals, it cant get any better than that

Wanna know what the Horde gets to do? We get to kill ourselves. joy joy joy

[Madfunguz]

And where does he get the stance of his way or the highway?

HIS faction is dying off and getting purged
HIS people are being executed en masse
HIS rebellion needs the Alliance to succeed

The man who needs to clamour to the enemy to help survive is on just about no ground to take the "I'm right and you follow me" path.

YOUR city was nuked! :P

[Blufossa]

Oh come on, please don't make him another Garrosh...siigh this makes me mad.

I didn't even want Garrosh turning into whatever the f*** he is now. They did that in one of their retarded "novels".

I LOVED Garrosh before he turned into orc-hitler 2.0.