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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blindlad View Post
    Rule number 1 of participating in raid-centric discussions on mmo-c:
    Disregard forum warriors with progression lower than yourself if they don't bring any valid ideas or criticism. It's obvious that Miga didn't even consider how your build preference might function and just posted a kneejerk reaction. Normal log rankings don't matter, what matters is the survival of your raid group, and stoixeio is obviously getting the job done.
    Valid ideas or Criticism? It seems like you completely ignored the first paragraph of my post where I do provide a few ideas and a reminder that Healing Surge is better to spam compared to that of GHW.

    I'm sure it's possible to "get the job done" with suboptimal gear setup but it puts an unnecessary strain on your other healers.

    I do however compliment you on quite decent progress and a perfectly valid and good stat setup on your own shaman.



    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Have you tried a similar build Stoixeio is having? Or do you have any other "proof" that it is "obviously quite shit"? Ranking on heals doesn't tell the whole story, usually just higher HPS means that your raid is taking extra damage or your other healers are slacking.

    There aren't many encounters where you should UE+HR on CD in 10 mans. And I believe most of us shamans are tied to tank healing in heroic mode, other healers can raid heal spread out situations better. That's why UE+HR isn't used on CD for the majority of encounters.
    Actually this is completely wrong "HR remains our biggest and AOE healing spell. With the recent 20%buff and the old mana nerf it is our best HPM and HPS spell for 3-6 targets if it hits them for full duration without overhealing them. It is better HPM also with as less as 2 targets than every other heal save CH when it hits 4 targets and HW. As for its HPS it's our strongest healing source for 2 targets and above." - Therya, Post Number: 132 (http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t130574-...eals_5_2_a/p9/)

    You will most likely always be able to hit atleast 2 people with a full duration HR even if its only yourself + 1 more target.
    Last edited by Miga; 2013-04-12 at 11:29 PM.
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  2. #42
    A very important part of having a productive discussion is being open-minded about things that you generally don't expect to be good, especially in the case of healing. I was referring to valid ideas or criticism when you were discussing stoix's preferences - you failed to point out any flaws or concerns and just called him "shit".

    Let's have a closer look at what his preferences actually are, and what is the underlying logic behind them is.

    To do that let's actually look at healing from a dps players point of view (while intentionally ignoring things like tank and spot healing, same way as a lot of dps ignore encounter mechanics and just sim patchwerk): you are a spec with very good short-term cooldown abilities (RT, HR, HST) that trump everything else in your arsenal, with 4 filler spells (HW, GHW, HS, CH) that should be used when the first subset is not available. So by a pure number standpoint you should be maximising your ability to use the first subset, while minimising the use of the second, the same way hunters are using their core abilities and are only using steady/cobra when they can't use anything else because of lack of focus.

    That ties precisely into resource management - we don't have an infinite supply of our resource, so what we have to do is ensure that we have enough mana for the whole duration of the fight to use RT, HST, HR on cooldown, if those heals are applicable to the fight. Any excess mana beyond that does nothing in terms of increasing your throughput with those abilities, which helps us evaluate our stats differently. The only realistic use of spirit after a particular breakpoint does nothing for you, except for allowing for additional casts of HW, GHW, HS, CH. Int, crit and mastery increase the power of both the first and the second subsets, haste increases the throughput on the first subset only on breakpoints and has a very mild effect on the second subset, while costing additional mana.

    This leads us to the conclusion of stoic's preferences are - be slightly mana negative on RT, HR while having those "pimped out", always recall HST to have it be mana neutral, have enough leftover mana to be able to do something meaningful between ability cooldowns. Is that style of healing sustainable on every boss in every raid? Absolutely not, but don't have prejudice against it just based on that fact. I would strongly urge you to actually try it out on fights with heavy reliance on healing rain (jin'rokh, megaera) to discover it's strengths and weaknesses for yourself.

    Hell, if I have the time to regem and reforge, I do usually drop down to about 10k spirit while going full crit for megaera hc. Spirit stacking is not always correct answer for every boss and scenario. Be open-minded and don't be afraid to experiment.

    And lastly, if you do decide to look further into additional information and theorycrafting on different stat preferences, have a read of Hamlet's series of blogs regarding healing:
    http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...her-resources/
    Healing with different classes since Vanilla
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Higgs/advanced

  3. #43
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miga View Post
    "HR remains our biggest and AOE healing spell. With the recent 20%buff and the old mana nerf it is our best HPM and HPS spell for 3-6 targets if it hits them for full duration without overhealing them. It is better HPM also with as less as 2 targets than every other heal save CH when it hits 4 targets and HW. As for its HPS it's our strongest healing source for 2 targets and above." - Therya, Post Number: 132 (http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t130574-...eals_5_2_a/p9/)

    You will most likely always be able to hit atleast 2 people with a full duration HR even if its only yourself + 1 more target.
    The bolded parts are the issue here.
    If I try to smash HR into my normal healing rotation when I'm healing the tank + random damage, I will get 50-80% overhealing for Healing Rain. Nobody is going to be roughly 10 seconds at low health standing on my Healing Rain for the full duration. If someone takes damage, he will be healed in the next 2-4 seconds to full HP. People tend to move quite a lot, too. So Healing Rain is out of the question most of the time. Just because the theoretical HPM and HPS are in favor of HR over other spells, it doesn't mean it works like that in reality.

    That's why I don't give much value for simulations, especially on healing. Practical in-game testing is a lot more valuable, especially if your results are everything opposite to the simulated and calculated "facts".
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

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  4. #44
    Why are people talking about free heals for four seconds? It's only your next spell within four seconds that's free of mana, isn't it?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyOfEternity View Post
    Why are people talking about free heals for four seconds? It's only your next spell within four seconds that's free of mana, isn't it?
    The buff is not consumed. It is a straight 4s of not spending mana.

  6. #46
    The buff is not consumed. It is a straight 4s of not spending mana.
    Oh, anyone knows how often it proccs?

  7. #47

  8. #48
    Checking the 5k spirit guy's log. Do I get it right (I am really not any good in log reading), that he basically "refuses" to cast anything besides healing wave (cheap way to make trinkets proc, and on crit get some mana back). He pops healing stream (what he then calls back), casts lightning bolts/healing wave, and on big boom (quills) he pops healing tide. And... basically. That's it?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Checking the 5k spirit guy's log. Do I get it right (I am really not any good in log reading), that he basically "refuses" to cast anything besides healing wave (cheap way to make trinkets proc, and on crit get some mana back). He pops healing stream (what he then calls back), casts lightning bolts/healing wave, and on big boom (quills) he pops healing tide. And... basically. That's it?
    You can probably get away with 5k Spirit if all that you do is cast HST, Riptide and HR on CD, recall HST every time, and cast a few Healing Waves. That might work well for normal modes, but you absolutely will not get away with that in any type of difficult content.

  10. #50
    you do understand that healing has to do with the other healers as well right? Atm we are running with shaman monk and priest as the healing team. So far i have tried jin'rokh, tortos, ji-kun,iron qon. So far healing has never been an issue for my team but poor execution from the raid team in general. I started this thread not to advertise my spec/forge/playstyle. For me that playstyle is working so far w/o any problems and w/o causing problems to the other healers as well. So if u care to respond to my thread i would like to repsond to my initial question. Given the way i am speced/play atm. Should i go for the healing/dps legendary gem or not bother using it at all and keep my burning meta.

  11. #51
    The meta is incredible, 20% of a fight with no mana cost is ridiculously good
    old mistweaver probably still better than u

  12. #52
    I got the gem yesterday and i first could use it on Iron Qon 10man heroic.
    And i must say the procrate is quite high with a good amount of haste, many times i got it procced just as i started casting healing rain or just when i did a riptide to do a couple Healing surges.
    I give the gem a thumbs up!
    But to stay on the topic of the poster, if your going for full crit and haste its a win if you go without haste well its not a good, still good but not as good since the meta gem as a RPPM of 1.4m i believe it was.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    8. As for now, I strongly recommend getting that 7613 haste rating, if you have good enough gear to do that. If you have 4pc t15 (which I unfortunately don't), 2x RPPM trinkets and the legendary meta gem - I believe this haste threshold is a no-brainer. You might even be able to reach higher haste levels without gimping your mana efficiency too much (probably at 530 ilvl or so).
    Now that we've had a bit more time to test run our new metagems, do you still stand by this statement Puupi? Roughly by how much has your throughput increased, and do you have any issues with mana? Reason I'm asking is I kept with my pure crit build even after obtaining the meta, and am still scoring extremely high on every hc kill, i.e. top 10 on WoL, for what's that worth. So I'm very reluctant to shift 5k+ worth of stats from crit to haste.

  14. #54
    Pretty obvious. This shaman blows. End of discussion

  15. #55
    I've tried out the meta now for all bosses now and I can tell you that it's really good, especially together with the 7613 haste cap. Highly recommended atleast for 25mans.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by stoixeio View Post
    wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Kazzak/Voodoohealz/

    there are some of my logs so u know i dont troll u. Just recall the HST 100% and its a win. free healz for all !
    i have a couple of questions, because i'm interested if the play-style is valid:

    1) your wow-heroes link says you have 8k spirit. so is it 8k or 5k?
    2) i checked your logs. it seems quite limiting, since you can only heal constant damage with HR/HST. what happens to your mana if you need to assist with triage healing and use HS/GHW? do you guys just wipe on unexpected damage?
    3) i also checked your rankings. no offense, but 75k is a ranked log on jin'rohk heroic? i did 100k on normal with an item level 20 points lower than yours. and i stack spirit as high as possible.
    4) how do you intend to adjust to heroic modes that don't entail "stack up and heal" mechanics?

  17. #57
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xor7486 View Post
    Now that we've had a bit more time to test run our new metagems, do you still stand by this statement Puupi? Roughly by how much has your throughput increased, and do you have any issues with mana? Reason I'm asking is I kept with my pure crit build even after obtaining the meta, and am still scoring extremely high on every hc kill, i.e. top 10 on WoL, for what's that worth. So I'm very reluctant to shift 5k+ worth of stats from crit to haste.
    I do. I wouldn't go below 7613 haste anymore, it feels so good. I don't think one should stack haste any higher, though. 7613 is kind of a sweet spot.

    My mana issues depend on the encounter very much. Jin'rokh is a joke, so you can do it with whatever setup you like. This week on Horridon i was sitting at 75%+ mana whole fight. I didn't have any problems on Council either, 100k hps or something like that. On Tortos I needed to go for budget heals sometimes, on that fight a more crit heavy setup would be better. Megaera, my mana was the same as with full crit setup, 130kish hps. Jikun = joke. On Durumu spirit is a very good stat because the maze phase lets you regen so much. Haven't done Dark Animus or Lei Shen HC yet, but I won't change my stat setup for either of those fights. Twin Consorts is rough on your mana pool, but manageable.

    All in all, the reliability of your heals that the 7613 haste brings outweighs the statistical and random HPS gain from crit. Crit is nice when you crit, but if you don't, what then?

    I don't even have the t15 4pc yet, so I'm really looking forward to getting that free 6-8% smart heal HPS increase in my healing. Hopefully soon(tm).
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Haven't done Dark Animus or Lei Shen HC yet, but I won't change my stat setup for either of those fights.
    Animus isn't particularly hard for healers to begin with, it's the standard jazz of cooldown management and healing up spike damage before the next one (jolt). Haste will be perfect for tank healing there
    Healing with different classes since Vanilla
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  19. #59
    Ok, cheers! Just one follow-up Q: Which of those fights do you 2-heal, Puupi?

  20. #60
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xor7486 View Post
    Ok, cheers! Just one follow-up Q: Which of those fights do you 2-heal, Puupi?
    Only Horridon. There are couple of fights you could 2-heal with resto shaman+disc priest, but not many. Paladin+Priest can 2-heal more encounters. Our disc priest is quite new to healing (he had never healed before 5.2 and hadn't played priest as a main either) and his gear has been the worst in our raid group through whole ToT. Mine isn't that great either. Therefore we have 3 healed all the fights, it's just more reliable.

    Our disc priest has progressed in his healing hugely since the start of ToT, now he is pretty good!

    As far as I know, Lei Shen should be 2-healed. So probably the only 2 fights in this tier we are 2 healing are Horridon and Lei Shen. Don't know about Dark Animus yet, 2 healing is a possibility but I really don't know which way we are going to do it.

    PS. About that 7613 haste: you need to remember it requires a certain level of gear to achieve it, probably 520ish. If you are below that, don't worry about the haste thresholds that much
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

    http://www.hitbox.tv/puupi - mythic restoration/enhancement shaman raiding

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