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  1. #41
    At this point then, I would ask her how she feels about raiding in general. Like 2 months ago we did just that with a guy who just wasn't improving his DPS despite like 10 ilvls of upgrades, kept dying early, etc. Eventually it came down to "Look man -- Are you having fun? Do you even want to be here? What is the deal?" And the answer was "No, I don't really care anymore." So we replaced him.

    Or see if she's tired of Warlock and maybe has another class she really wants to play instead. For 5.2 I was getting kinda bored of my Rogue, so I switched to my Monk and ended up actually taking over MT duties from my RL friend who was tired of tanking and was ready to just quit WoW. So I'm getting a change of pace tanking on the Monk (Brewmaster is a lot of fun) and he gets to DPS now and get a breather.

  2. #42
    You keep saying that "numbers don't matter" but you also said you want to get the bosses down and you want to see progress.

    Seems as you've yet to post it, is it at all possible to get an armory link? Or are you worried this would let the cat out of the bag?
    I also agree with Stellvia, I'd been playing my Shaman since TBC and was about ready to quit WoW in MoP due to extreme boredom of healing, but my raid leader worked it out so I could switch to my warrior to tank and I have to say I'm very happy with everything now.

    There are a lot of little things a Warlock can do to add to their numbers. But without a bit of basic information from Armory, people can only guess.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by stellvia View Post
    At this point then, I would ask her how she feels about raiding in general. Like 2 months ago we did just that with a guy who just wasn't improving his DPS despite like 10 ilvls of upgrades, kept dying early, etc. Eventually it came down to "Look man -- Are you having fun? Do you even want to be here? What is the deal?" And the answer was "No, I don't really care anymore." So we replaced him.

    Or see if she's tired of Warlock and maybe has another class she really wants to play instead. For 5.2 I was getting kinda bored of my Rogue, so I switched to my Monk and ended up actually taking over MT duties from my RL friend who was tired of tanking and was ready to just quit WoW. So I'm getting a change of pace tanking on the Monk (Brewmaster is a lot of fun) and he gets to DPS now and get a breather.
    This entire post is golden. Especially if you're a group that's been together a long time you should be able to be open with one another and if someone's burned out either on raiding at all or on a given role, they should be able to say something. It might be that they drop from raiding. It might be that they rotate in on a standby basis because they like raiding, just not every week. Might be that they get to do another role and swap with someone else in the raid who's tired of their role.

  4. #44
    The Patient kenshinag's Avatar
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    As a Aff lock, in that fight, I'm almost always last of all the dps roles (still above tanks and heals though, except the bat tank). I blame being the designated turtle kicker for that though. I'm also running around applying my snare curse to all the turtles while dotting as much as I can, so I'm really unable to lay into the boss or aoe bats a lot.

    If she isn't kicking and snaring, I'd probably start by advising her to put her pet on passive and then set it to attack the boss. This will keep it stuck on the boss and it will not lose dps target switching. If she's not using a pet, I'd advise her to on this fight. Then, I'd suggest her to use KJC because when you're getting tossed around, it's so helpful to be still casting. She should rain of fire everything including inactive turtles to keep embers flowing. Also, she should save up 3 embers and Havoc Tortos or an active turtle, and then Shadowburn an inactive turtle 3 times. This is a HUGE burst and means that you can execute 3 times every 25 seconds throughout the entire fight. Saving DS for these moments help too.
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  5. #45
    Herald of the Titans RoKPaNda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellvia View Post
    At this point then, I would ask her how she feels about raiding in general. Like 2 months ago we did just that with a guy who just wasn't improving his DPS despite like 10 ilvls of upgrades, kept dying early, etc. Eventually it came down to "Look man -- Are you having fun? Do you even want to be here? What is the deal?" And the answer was "No, I don't really care anymore." So we replaced him.

    Or see if she's tired of Warlock and maybe has another class she really wants to play instead. For 5.2 I was getting kinda bored of my Rogue, so I switched to my Monk and ended up actually taking over MT duties from my RL friend who was tired of tanking and was ready to just quit WoW. So I'm getting a change of pace tanking on the Monk (Brewmaster is a lot of fun) and he gets to DPS now and get a breather.
    This is exactly what I would suggest. This expansion has significantly changed a few classes, and the class that I've always played is so radically different that I don't even enjoy it anymore. See if she maybe wants to try another class or role or something but is sticking with warlock because she thinks that is what the team needs/wants.

  6. #46
    Don't replace, we've managed to carry our 60k dps on lei shen warrior to 4 hc so far ;p

    The person means more than the player.
    Last edited by oggyowl; 2013-04-11 at 12:29 AM.

  7. #47
    In all fairness, she might simply struggle to relearn how to play a warlock, it's been changed a lot and I know some people say it's not been made easier. Maybe she could try another spec even if it's not the optimal one, or play another class.

    Since you say problem is this expansion, I really suspect the new warlock system is simply not for her.

  8. #48
    High Overlord braayden's Avatar
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    Have you got an armory link of her; I'd like to see what she's doing because her gear could be wrong if she read a site wrong.
    Braayden
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  9. #49
    Without an armory link or logs it would be hard to pinpoint certain problems. But I can try to adress a few of the more common problems destro locks over look.

    1. Rain of fire, it is a dps gain on single target if it ticks for all its ticks
    2. Make sure she is hoarding embers for when dark soul is coming up (Never cap embers but don't starve either, chaos bolt if your going to cap before dark soul)
    3. Immolate uptime, needs to be as close to 100% as possible. However try not to clip it until the very last second
    4. Backlash charges need to be used accordingly, only use them on incinerates. Never chaosbolt (Unless you need the burst right that second where the faster chaos bolt would make or break downing xyz mob before it wipes you)
    5. Abuse havoc. Cleave everything in sight with it whenever you can with chaosbolt. (Only on targets that need killing or if your like me and like to build up a bigger soul leech on magera)
    6. Kil'jaeden's cunning is not the go to talent on every fight! Go back and forth between it and mannoroths fury depending on the fight Aoe intensive/movement intensive
    7. Trinket procs! Try to get chaos bolts in when you have macho dmg! Wushoolays trinket is a good example of this dropping chaosbolts during its 2nd half is almost and sometimes more dmg then demon souled chaos bolts. (If you can get trinket and DS up at same time its gravy!)
    8. Aoe, If you have enough targets you should be able to consistantly FnB till they are dead. (FnB Immolate/conflag/incinerate)
    9. Understand the fight 100% and plan your 'burst' phases accordingly. You want to pump the dps and pot etc when you know you can make full use of it!


    If your lock is using Gosup, use observer always. Except on fights where your observer will be moving 50% of the time then opt for fel imp or sacrifice!

    Hope this helps some
    I play many games. WoW, Rift, D3, PoE, SC2 I will not criticize your game choice if you don't mine.

  10. #50
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    I would like to see logs for that night.
    There's def more to this story than OP is letting us know...

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    But I'm sorry, something's fucked up here. There's no way I'd be chomping at the bit to kick someone who's been in my raid team since Ulduar because of a few weeks of struggling nor would any people with whom I'd want to raid.
    Basically, this is it. Are you running a guild/raid where you are raiding with your friends, or are you running a guild where you are raiding with numbers?

    If you're working on normal Tortos now then you are probably with a fairly skilled group of social raiders. This is a very difficult tier for casual progression. If your social ties and friendships are important to you then my thinking is: Fuck Blizzard and hard encounters, keep your guild happy.

    PS -- Tortos is a shitty encounter for casters. Being continually bounced up into the air sucks.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    Basically, this is it. Are you running a guild/raid where you are raiding with your friends, or are you running a guild where you are raiding with numbers?

    If you're working on normal Tortos now then you are probably with a fairly skilled group of social raiders. This is a very difficult tier for casual progression. If your social ties and friendships are important to you then my thinking is: Fuck Blizzard and hard encounters, keep your guild happy.

    PS -- Tortos is a shitty encounter for casters. Being continually bounced up into the air sucks.
    We're actually progressing on Durumu, but this thread was spurred on my a bunch of Tortos wipes on Tuesday that pissed me off.

    Sorry to everyone else for not linking logs, but I almost never come on these forums when I'm at home, and while at work WoL is behind a firewall. If you don't mind looking her up, she is Zathorah on US-Madoran. You can find her logs easily enough by looking her up on wow-heroes.com. All logs will be listed on that page.

  13. #53
    Warlocks are one of the most mobile ranged DPS classes now so that shoud not be a problem. As Destro on Horridon I can easily top 210K all the while running around like a madman.

    Tortos - she should be specced as Affliction clearly as Destro is fairly simple to pull high numbers on that fight and it's not happening and Affliction allows for easy SB:SS on the turtles that come out and Seed with Corruption on the bats. No pet management to worry about for her.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 12:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by lordsphinx View Post
    We're actually progressing on Durumu, but this thread was spurred on my a bunch of Tortos wipes on Tuesday that pissed me off.

    Sorry to everyone else for not linking logs, but I almost never come on these forums when I'm at home, and while at work WoL is behind a firewall. If you don't mind looking her up, she is Zathorah on US-Madoran. You can find her logs easily enough by looking her up on wow-heroes.com. All logs will be listed on that page.
    Doing a quick look here:

    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/madoran/zathorah

    She has always been on the really really low end of performance for Warlocks. Last tier as well. Bottom 10% generally this tier and really low for last also.

    If it has been that long, that is probably what you can expect for the future. So you have to decide if you want to raid with her or not, because that's the numbers she's going to output.

    She may find Affliction easier to play but I can't find any use of the spec at all even last tier when it was miles ahead of Affliction.

    One warning sign, last tier most Warlocks did not play Destruction and she still ranked low against the players that did play it. Normally in that scenario, people consistently rank high because there is minimal competition. IMO anyways.

    Shes slightly over the hit cap, not a big deal but still a minor waste of another stat.

    Just some quick observations to give you some more data to work with while I'm at work. I did not pull up her logs to analyze rotation because I am at work and because the EPeen already shows she is not just low, shes REALLY low. So clearly there is a problem there or a raid awareness issue where she is overwhelmed with everything going on and is not effectively switching targets.

  14. #54
    One thing about epeenbot is that it's not accounting for gearing differences and cant account for things like buff differences. The latter isn't a big deal, but the former could be. She's geared decently though. But the percentiles are inevitably going to be distorted early on by gearing... people who enter a tier really well geared are of course going to set a high bar so the 90th percentile will be really high. Imagine a 510 geared lock early on in ToT vs a 485 geared lock. What you really need to do is to compare where she is vs people in the same spec and in similar gear, +/- say 5 ilevels.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post

    PS -- Tortos is a shitty encounter for casters. Being continually bounced up into the air sucks.
    Don't really see how this applies for warlocks.
    To be perfectly honest here those recent numbers are quite atrocious and I am quite sure this is what you would expect from a warlock easily 10 itemlvls less. After a quick glance over the logs though I am not too sure if the performance is really that bad in relation to what the rest of your roster delivers.

  16. #56
    Since you said the issue started with 5.0, it's almost certain that it's linked to the warlock revamp. It sounds like she just hasn't adjusted to the new rotation and mechanics.

    Perhaps getting her to start a new warlock alt might help. She could approach the alt as more of a blank slate, and get used to the abilities slower. Then she transfers that knowledge to her old toon.

    Other than that, I suggest a change of class. Something new to learn might work better.

  17. #57
    Logs of the night in question.

    The majority of your deaths appear to be from Breath. Once you have the first turtle down, you should be set for the entire rest of the encounter if you use them economically. I'm not saying the lock (and others) weren't under performing, but you have her almost exclusively on turtles while your tanks and melee are AoEing bats. That's why the numbers look so skewed.

    If turtles were so much of an issue, you should have put your best suited melee on the turtles too (probably the DK). Your shamans did even less damage to the turtles than the lock and were tunneling the boss/bats. So, you basically only had a decent shadow priest and a crumby lock on turtles with the shamans occasionally hitting them.

  18. #58
    Update on the situation?

  19. #59
    Also would love an update.

    To be fair, from the few logs you've given me, you guys are coming down way harsh on her. She's not scumbagdps'ing, she's, from what I can see, honestly trying to do a good job. Squirl makes a nice observation about this, which, by the way, is a recurring theme in almost every log I saw (horridon, etc). She's not brilliant either (but then, she's not alone in this), but to claim that she's dragging down the raid is not true either. Blaming the tortos wipe on her is very unreasonable, and an easy way to not look at your (being your raiders) shortcomings. Which is what I'd tell the raiders next time they complain - tell them you'll deal with her as you see fit, but that you believe there's plenty of room for everyone to improve, which is the simple truth, and that this should be the complainers' focus.

    In any case, being a good raid leader means you get the nasty jobs. Obviously, whether or not her dps is an actual issue, people are unhappy about her. She will definitely feel this in the atmosphere as well and it will negatively impact her performance, for sure. Talk to her. Don't be accusive ("we noticed your dps is bad", "people have been complaining about you", "your performance is subpar"), but tell her what you noticed: that you know she's a great player, with great potential, but that you've noticed she used to perform better and that you worry because of that. Ask her if she enjoys raids, if she has problems within the guild, or in her rl, inquire and inform and encourage her to open up to you, see if you can find the problem. She may not disclose all her issues right away, but if you feel she's holding something back, ask her again the day after. It wouldn't do for her performance to be worse because her guild no longer is comfortable for her. Offer a listening ear and a helping hand, and come down really hard on people who publicly, or in whispers to her (or anyone) bash or flame. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but "your dps is rly bad lol" only makes things worse. In short: when you have to talk about something sensitive to someone, always have a compliment and a note of caring ready. "I know you're a great player, but since Mop I noticed you've been doing less well, I worry that something is bothering you". It really helps a lot to have a friendly conversation where nobody goes on the defensive mode, and the best way to accomplish that, is approaching her delicately.

    It's a shame you guys are in US, I don't think EU and US can exchange realids or battletags (can they?), because I would love to help her out, being a warlock myself.

    Anyway, good luck.

    Edit: As a general note: It is worth noting that most people don't perform bad because they want to. Some won't care, and I know a few "raiders" like that. For those people, I have little mercy. But most people try. Nobody likes being rockbottom on meters, even when you know it's because you're doing a special job that will negatively impact your dps, or that your class isn't so good for the fight (looking at you, depressed elemental shaman earlier in this thread :-)). Telling them to "pick it up or gtfo" - what do you hope to accomplish with that? Obviously they've picked it up as much as they can as it is. If you as RL do not have the energy to spend time trying to help someone to pick it up, be honest to him, to yourself, and to your raid, and replace him.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-04-13 at 02:02 AM.

  20. #60
    Herald of the Titans crakerjack's Avatar
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    Pull her aside and say this "I know we're not hardcore, but we as a guild would like to maintain progress... and well, your dps just isn't cutting it. Here are two options... either read up on your class and learn how to properly play it, or you'll be sat next raid for someone else who can maintain higher dps." If she pulls the whole veteran card and flips, kick her from the guild. If you're not doing as much dps as everyone else... it's likely because you don't know what the hell you're doing and if I ever saw anyone in my guild acting like they didn't know what they were doing, I'd kick them in a heart beat and remind them that I require you to know your shit before joining. Most guilds expect you to know your stuff, they're not there to help guide you and teach you about your class, that's entirely up to you. If you find it fitting to not search up your class and do your stupid rotation that is horrid, that's your choice, and it's my choice to kick you.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

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