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  1. #61
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenshinag View Post
    As a Aff lock, in that fight, I'm almost always last of all the dps roles (still above tanks and heals though, except the bat tank). I blame being the designated turtle kicker for that though. I'm also running around applying my snare curse to all the turtles while dotting as much as I can, so I'm really unable to lay into the boss or aoe bats a lot.

    If she isn't kicking and snaring, I'd probably start by advising her to put her pet on passive and then set it to attack the boss. This will keep it stuck on the boss and it will not lose dps target switching. If she's not using a pet, I'd advise her to on this fight. Then, I'd suggest her to use KJC because when you're getting tossed around, it's so helpful to be still casting. She should rain of fire everything including inactive turtles to keep embers flowing. Also, she should save up 3 embers and Havoc Tortos or an active turtle, and then Shadowburn an inactive turtle 3 times. This is a HUGE burst and means that you can execute 3 times every 25 seconds throughout the entire fight. Saving DS for these moments help too.
    I only know about Locks from my GM, who's always ranked in the top 95th percentile, so I'm assuming he's doing it right. He plays Destruction on Tortos and is doing close to 200k, so something tells me it's about choosing the right spec and know when to do what.

    OP, guide her to the MMO Warlock forum, I'm sure she could get a lot of tips and help with her spec, gemming, enchanting, reforging etc. Cause something's clearly wrong, when she's doing so low numbers. As others have said, most classes have changed a lot and if you don't stay on top of the changes, odds are you'll keep falling behind.

    About benching her or not. It really depends on what type of mentality your guild has. I mean, sure you've been raiding together for a long time, but even friendships have their limits. Cause in the end, her performance is holding the rest of your guild back. As someone else pointed out, most of your raiders could have performed a lot better, so maybe they shouldn't be too quick to point their fingers. But someone will always be bottom and if you're bottom by miles, people will notice and start playing the blame game.

    I'd too advice you to talk to her. Cause surely she must be aware, that she's not pulling her weight. Guide her to MMO, teach her how to use Simcraft maybe? I mean, with Simcraft she can see, what sort of numbers she should be putting out. Sometimes that can be an eye opener for people. In the end, I'd say that one person holding 9 others back isn't worth bringing on progression fights at least. Find someone else and bring her, once you get better gear and can carry her. That would be another option.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Pull her aside and say this "I know we're not hardcore, but we as a guild would like to maintain progress... and well, your dps just isn't cutting it. Here are two options... either read up on your class and learn how to properly play it, or you'll be sat next raid for someone else who can maintain higher dps." If she pulls the whole veteran card and flips, kick her from the guild. If you're not doing as much dps as everyone else... it's likely because you don't know what the hell you're doing and if I ever saw anyone in my guild acting like they didn't know what they were doing, I'd kick them in a heart beat and remind them that I require you to know your shit before joining. Most guilds expect you to know your stuff, they're not there to help guide you and teach you about your class, that's entirely up to you. If you find it fitting to not search up your class and do your stupid rotation that is horrid, that's your choice, and it's my choice to kick you.
    Ah, wouldn't it be wonderful if the world were so black and white. Everything would be simple, never any nuances. Doesn't matter that that class doesn't perform well here or there, or that this player was contributing to the kill instead of facerolling the wrong target for more dps - gkick and fix! No consideration for consequences for both involved person as well as the guild (guild morale, atmosphere, comfort, etc). OP is worried about all of that, which makes him a great RL, and I encourage him to actively try and resolve the issue.

    I mean no offense, crakerjack, but if it were this easy, OP wouldn't have come here. It'd be acceptable conduct in a pug, maybe, but in a tight-knit guild, your suggestion is about the worst thing you can do.

  3. #63
    Scarab Lord foxHeart's Avatar
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    Don't put up with the GM and officers bringing their girlfriends into raids, tbh.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    I only know about Locks from my GM, who's always ranked in the top 95th percentile, so I'm assuming he's doing it right. He plays Destruction on Tortos and is doing close to 200k, so something tells me it's about choosing the right spec and know when to do what.
    That's the thing about DPS. As destruction, I rock the charts on that fight because we don't kill the bats (talking heroic). As a result, I keep immo running on the bats, and have infinite embers later on in the fight, which greatly enhances my single target burst, something that was rather crucial on that fight for obvious reasons. Obviously, I still snare, kick turtles, and make sure the correct turtle dies and not keep aoeing just for the numbers. That'd be the warlock who, despite instructions, makes it a point to AOE the bats throughout the fight and ignore turtles or boss, never spares conflagrates for the turtles but makes it a point to use them when they're not needed (conflag slows), etc.

    That, really, is the difference between a great player and a bad one: knowing when dps should go where, even if that makes you appear lower on meters. Unfortunately, most players have no idea what class or spec works where and how and under what circumstances it will be great or not. Back when we progressed council hc, my guild insisted for a bit to have my warlock on council hc, but as our dps was super tight, multidotting was really out of the question and the reason I was brought effectively disappeared. Alternatively, I could have multidotted anyway, rock the meters, but land us no kill.

    In the logs, this warlock is not touching bats. Her job, as one of the few ranged, is to be exclusively on turtles. With dps on turtles tight as it is, she likely cannot afford a single ember to spread to the bats, nor, with so few bats, would it yield any singletarget dps increase. As a result she's low in the meters, while warlocks like your GM and myself, with a different tactic, get to "whore the meters".

    ALternatively, she could have gone batshit crazy on the bats, turtles would live, and the wipe would be imminent. What, exactly, is it you want of your dps in progression situation? Efficient dps, or max dps?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    OP, guide her to the MMO Warlock forum, I'm sure she could get a lot of tips and help with her spec, gemming, enchanting, reforging etc. Cause something's clearly wrong, when she's doing so low numbers. As others have said, most classes have changed a lot and if you don't stay on top of the changes, odds are you'll keep falling behind.
    I think when numbers are that far off the mark guides usually don't help much as it's more an issue of actually pressing your buttons in a more regular fashion.

  6. #66
    Herald of the Titans crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    Ah, wouldn't it be wonderful if the world were so black and white. Everything would be simple, never any nuances. Doesn't matter that that class doesn't perform well here or there, or that this player was contributing to the kill instead of facerolling the wrong target for more dps - gkick and fix! No consideration for consequences for both involved person as well as the guild (guild morale, atmosphere, comfort, etc). OP is worried about all of that, which makes him a great RL, and I encourage him to actively try and resolve the issue.

    I mean no offense, crakerjack, but if it were this easy, OP wouldn't have come here. It'd be acceptable conduct in a pug, maybe, but in a tight-knit guild, your suggestion is about the worst thing you can do.
    Sit her out because she can't do proper dps and won't search up her class? That's bad? I only said kick her if she got all snotty and pleaded that the raid spot is hers because she's been there long enough... I never said kick her out instantly... give her a shot to read up on her class and if she makes improvements, good... if not... well she'll be back up. Now if it were my guild... she wouldn't have been in the guild to begin with... I expect people to know their class... well enough to compete with the best for that class... if the best in the world are pulling that kind of dps, then you have no excuse for why you can't. That's just how I see it... I except raiders to know their class inside and out.
    Last edited by crakerjack; 2013-04-13 at 02:19 AM.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Sit her out because she can't do proper dps and won't search up her class? That's bad? I only said kick her if she got all snotty and pleaded that the raid spot is hers because she's been there long enough... I never said kick her out instantly... give her a shot to read up on her class and if she makes improvements, good... if not... well she'll be back up. Now if it were my guild..
    You're not competent to run a guild. No one would put up with the attitude.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Sit her out because she can't do proper dps and won't search up her class? That's bad? I only said kick her if she got all snotty and pleaded that the raid spot is hers because she's been there long enough... I never said kick her out instantly... give her a shot to read up on her class and if she makes improvements, good... if not... well she'll be back up. Now if it were my guild... she wouldn't have been in the guild to begin with... I expect people to know their class... well enough to compete with the best for that class... if the best in the world are pulling that kind of dps, then you have no excuse for why you can't. That's just how I see it... I except raiders to know their class inside and out.
    I'm not saying to put up with whatever mediocre performance your players bring, I'm just saying it's not all that matters in a guild environment and definitely not what should define how you deal with the problem.

    That said, whether her dps is terrible or not really remains up for debate. Again, not saying she's top notch, but that's also not something you can fairly say of anyone in those logs (no offense intended at all OP top performance is not what it's about in those guild runs, and I'm very aware of that - just pointing out it's a bit unfair to single out one person who's not doing all that bad, in all honesty). As someone said, get her to be full time on bats next week will likely shut the people who complain about her dps up. Unfortunately, that wouldn't get them the kill, since Tortos apparently is already a fight where they struggle.

  9. #69
    Herald of the Titans crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    You're not competent to run a guild. No one would put up with the attitude.
    You're not thinking are you? If I had a guild... it would be full of people who want to be the best at their class... I wouldn't settle for sub par people. So let me ask you... how would people not like my attitude? It's not like I'm freaking out, everyone knows what they're doing and we get the boss kill, seems like everyone is happy in that situation... I think you need to think things through more clearly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 07:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    I'm not saying to put up with whatever mediocre performance your players bring, I'm just saying it's not all that matters in a guild environment and definitely not what should define how you deal with the problem.

    That said, whether her dps is terrible or not really remains up for debate. Again, not saying she's top notch, but that's also not something you can fairly say of anyone in those logs (no offense intended at all OP top performance is not what it's about in those guild runs, and I'm very aware of that - just pointing out it's a bit unfair to single out one person who's not doing all that bad, in all honesty). As someone said, get her to be full time on bats next week will likely shut the people who complain about her dps up. Unfortunately, that wouldn't get them the kill, since Tortos apparently is already a fight where they struggle.
    You keep talking about one fight... OP said this warlock is consistently low on dps... even around 60k... are you serious? Let me ask you one question... is it fair to her to be kicked out of the raid because she's not pulling her wait? Or is it fair that everyone else has to suffer wipes after wipes because of one incompetent player? I'll let you decide.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    You're not thinking are you? If I had a guild... it would be full of people who want to be the best at their class... I wouldn't settle for sub par people. So let me ask you... how would people not like my attitude? It's not like I'm freaking out, everyone knows what they're doing and we get the boss kill, seems like everyone is happy in that situation... I think you need to think things through more clearly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 07:26 PM ----------



    You keep talking about one fight... OP said this warlock is consistently low on dps... even around 60k... are you serious? Let me ask you one question... is it fair to her to be kicked out of the raid because she's not pulling her wait? Or is it fair that everyone else has to suffer wipes after wipes because of one incompetent player? I'll let you decide.
    In my previous post I mentioned other fights where this is the case also. Of course, we don't know more than the logs linked. I haven't seen her play. I cannot judge. But nuance is always welcome, and a different perspective on a problem can only serve to help it. "her dps is bad" is the problem: RL can do two things, either give the offending player an ultimatum like you suggest, or, as the offending player is a friend and longtime guildie, he can figure out why her dps is bad. We, posters in this thread, have offered several reasons why this may be the case. Some suggested playstyle (keybindings, etc), others, like myself, offered that in some circumstances, recount tells you nothing, or that there's more going on, for example, she's being bullied by a fellow guildie. Whatever the case, identifying the problem to solve it is what people like myself are arguing. That's all.

    To answer your question: that depends on why that guild or group is raiding. If it's a pug, I'll expect to kill bosses and if I pug a mage and he's doing 20k DPS I will be swift to replace him. He's no friend of mine, or anyone in that group, he can only impact the raid negatively by not contributing and likely, as is often the case with bad players, being a douchebag.

    If, however, it's a guildgroup, we may be raiding for completely different reasons. Much like you drink some wine with your friends, not to get drunk, but to enjoy each other's company.

    My main's in a hardcore progression guild, and in that guild, performance outweighs how awesome someone is, though we do try to constantly keep the atmosphere friendly. If someone underperforms, as you suggest, it will impact this atmosphere. We're here to raid together, but ultimately we're here to get things done - rank high, etc. In that circumstance, it sucks to have someone who doesn't pull his weight, even if he's a great guy. And he'll end up being replaced.

    My alt used to be in a very casual raiding group. A lot of them were close friends, often RL friends, or else guildies they've been together with for years. They didn't raid to kill bosses - that was merely a bonus, really. They raided to spend time together, chat and laugh together. When that's your goal of raiding, you don't simply replace someone. And yes, we had severely underperforming raiders. But that was just part of the deal, part of what you signed up for by raiding with them. It didn't make my evenings less enjoyable, even when I couldn't ask for something as simple as misdirect because that spell was something he never used. I didn't mind wiping hours to a normal boss I kill with ease on heroic mode on my main, because, that wasn't why I, or any of us, was present in that raid.

    Of course, there are limits. Sometimes, a player performs so badly that it becomes an issue, even in a guild like that, and yes, we had a player like that in that guild. I don't know what they ended up doing with him, I had to quit playing with them because our main's guild break ended (end of cata). But this is the position OP is in right now.

    Hope you understand the nuance a bit better. As a sidenote, I'd appreciate it if your posts adressed to me could be a tad less hostile-sounding.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-04-13 at 02:44 AM.

  11. #71
    Mechagnome Serenia's Avatar
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    Well with my Destro warlock I always use Kil'Jaeden's cunning. That pretty much lets you cast all the time no matter how much you move. It shouldn't be hard evading turtles either. When dpsing turtles, if bats are up tell her to put a rain of fire or 2 on the bars so she can generate embers fast and destroy the turtle with chaos bolts. Also bane of havoc on boss on cooldown. Tell her to keep immolate up on boss and on turtles. As for bats aoe, I do Fire and Brimstone> Curse of the elements, Fire and brimstone > Immolate > Fire and brimstone Conflag + incinerates. It worked well and I can pull 150-200k dps on tortos. Hope it helps her too, good luck :>

  12. #72
    Stop beating around the bush, asking for helm on forums and talk with her, tell her that she is doing bad dps and needs to improve...

  13. #73
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    You're not thinking are you? If I had a guild... it would be full of people who want to be the best at their class... I wouldn't settle for sub par people. So let me ask you... how would people not like my attitude? It's not like I'm freaking out, everyone knows what they're doing and we get the boss kill, seems like everyone is happy in that situation... I think you need to think things through more clearly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 07:26 PM ----------



    You keep talking about one fight... OP said this warlock is consistently low on dps... even around 60k... are you serious? Let me ask you one question... is it fair to her to be kicked out of the raid because she's not pulling her wait? Or is it fair that everyone else has to suffer wipes after wipes because of one incompetent player? I'll let you decide.

    And you fail to understand, that the OP isn't in a Heroic raiding guild. He's already pointed that out and therein lies the dilemma. Any serious raiding guild (no offense OP) would remove any member underperforming to that extend (as Cirque is saying as well), despite the fact that the person in question is a good friend. Cause people in serious raiding guilds are raiding to progress and people who're constantly holding the group back, will either improve or be benched/removed from the raiding group.

    But the OP didn't ask for general opinions about how to handle people who underperform and you're taking his dilemma out of context.

  14. #74
    If she's not already using it, have her pick up Kil'Jaeden's Cunning talent... after that she should never have an issue moving and dpsing at the same time unless she's a clicker. And if she's a clicker tell her to stop.

  15. #75
    Post this in the Destro sub-thread or the fix my dps sub thread in the Warlock forums. You'll get a lot more useful answers there.

  16. #76
    Make her reroll a frost DK. That way she can top meters by banging her face on the keyboard

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Post this in the Destro sub-thread or the fix my dps sub thread in the Warlock forums. You'll get a lot more useful answers there.
    I agree with this a lot.

    Actually, have her post it herself. See if she realizes which part of her play needs the most help and whatnot. I think its important she realizes that she needs to improve. (If its still an issue)

  18. #78
    High Overlord Pol-Kinabol's Avatar
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    She struggle with movement? Tell her to use Kil'jaeden's Cunning, it puts us almost on par with hunter.
    Originally Posted by cutterx2202
    Stop complaining to solve your lack of ability, and start reading and practicing to gain ability. Stop trying to bring people down to your level instead of striving to raise yours.

  19. #79
    Thank you all for your various pieces of advice. I have a lot of responses to make as well as some updates, and because there are quite a few I don’t intend on quoting questions posed before responding. Nonetheless, I hope to be able to respond to most questions asked. Before I get started, again I apologize for being away from the thread for so long. I only get on here during the week while at work, so I haven’t even checked MMO since Friday.

    As an update, we did get both Tortos and Meg down on Wed 4/10 after a few more wipes. We actually ended up wiping to Meg more on Wednesday that on our first kill, but that had nothing to do with the raider in question, and is quite OT. Over the weekend, the ‘lock and I had a good, long conversation about her numbers, and she actually started crying and was really upset. She wasn’t upset with me by any means, she was upset because she knew her numbers were really low and felt responsible for a bad week of raiding. Apparently others had been whispering her with “encouraging words”, and some were being nasty in whispers as well. She said that she felt like a charity case that I had to take my time to help her, and was going to really try to improve. She promised to spend the remainder of the weekend starting from scratch with her rotation, macros, weakauras, gemming, enchanting, reforging, and UI. I personally saw her online for almost 10 hours on Sunday, and never saw her leave Stormwind. I haven’t had a chance to run any LFRs with her since then, but I’m hoping things are going to improve.

    There have been some here who have pointed out that she wasn’t the only one that underperformed that night (and other nights), and you are 100% correct. A lot of players underperformed, and she definitely wasn’t the only person that caused wipes. In my original post, I mentioned that we had to bring in a melee pug who was frankly terrible, but we didn’t have many more options than that, and we had to make due. Others have mentioned that I can’t hold her responsible for only have 2 ranged, and again that is correct, but I can hold her responsible for not carrying her half of the weight on the turtles.

    Someone had pointed out that a lot of our wipes were cause by breath, and I can take responsibility for that myself. After having a break to think about it, a lot of these could land on my shoulders. I was the one kicking, and while this is only an excuse, I was missing kicks because we were behind on turtles and I wasn’t in the right position when I needed to be. I was spending far too much time trying to catch up on turtles and not nearly enough time getting in position to kick the breath. While I was the one missing breathes, I maintain that the missed kicks were because we were so behind on turtles that my focus was shifted from where it needed to be.

    I’m going to take some other advice here and ask her to share with the Warlock forum in hopes that they will be able to point out some glaring errors she’s making. I hope they will be able to help a lot.

    Thank you all for your attention and your help. I’m looking forward to another raid week, and hope that the changes she made over the weekend will help =)

  20. #80
    The Patient
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    I love your attitude I hope everything works out well for you all.

    The people whispering nasty comments - that's not acceptable, it just makes a bad situation worse. I hope you stamp down on that asap.

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