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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    If they were smart they would make is so the less energy you have the faster it regens to a maximum. That would actually solve a lot of the combat issues in shit gear.
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  2. #22
    Disagree with everything in this thread.

    -Rogues don't have tons of problems, we have a few very minor ones
    -SnD and a bleed can be up within 1 second of opening as sub
    -You dont need 100% recup uptime unless you're horrible. Rogues are about active abilities and not passive nonsense anyway, if you want easymode play warrior.
    -Removing SnD would dumb the class down.

    You're essentially say this "despite rogues being one of the better classes, it's still not strong enough for me so I think rogues should be dumbed down so I can be effective". Please please reroll.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by lolpve View Post
    Disagree with everything in this thread.

    -Rogues don't have tons of problems, we have a few very minor ones
    -SnD and a bleed can be up within 1 second of opening as sub
    -You dont need 100% recup uptime unless you're horrible. Rogues are about active abilities and not passive nonsense anyway, if you want easymode play warrior.
    -Removing SnD would dumb the class down.

    You're essentially say this "despite rogues being one of the better classes, it's still not strong enough for me so I think rogues should be dumbed down so I can be effective". Please please reroll.
    Removing SnD doesn't dumb down the class. The ability itself does. Its a mandatory skill that even the worst Rogues know well enough to keep up near 100% uptime. It's a waste of a GCD because it is MANDATORY for ALL specs. That does not make it a unique or interesting ability. Baking it into the Rogue itself does not actually change our damage or anything else beyond freeing up a single GCD every 30 seconds.

    I like the changes they made with recup so that it is no longer mandatory for some specs (moving Energetic Recovery from Recup to SnD for Sub, etc.) I'd like to see them move off SnD and just add the ER into Rupture (similar to assassination), since that is also mandatory to keep on your target.

    Rogues were always supposed to be the twitchy class. Combat has gone back to its roots and with AR/SB and the 4pc bonus, it's extremely spammy and that combo is up often. Assassination is VERY slow and the main reason why is the energy cost of Mutilate IMO. It's high cost and the slow energy regen on a spec based on mastery (until very high ilvls) means that you spend a lot of time just waiting for your energy to regen so you can spam another mutilate. Under 35% burn phases this is much better since you are spamming dispatch, and feels a little more natural as a playstyle for me.

    The MAJOR issue I have with Rogues today is the very high penalty to switching targets. They still haven't put ComboPoints on the rogue, and Redirect really only helps on a single target switch once per minute. Any fight where we are constantly having to switch targets kills our DPS. MfD is a decent alternative to solve this when we are switching targets for small adds, but in cases where we are not killing the target it does not help (and losing out on Anticipation is a big negative as well. Lost CPs also contributes to significant DPS loss.)

    You want more players to play Rogue? Make them more interesting. Get rid of all these passive buffs that we have to maintain on ourselves that increases our attack speed. Let rupture spread to other mobs within 10yards when we Envenom and/or Eviserate them. Keep CPs on the Rogue instead of on the target. Bake SnD into each spec. Then add some alternative abilities that can be used in place of our existing combo builders. For instance, give us a move that does less damage, generates 1 CP, and regens 10 energy when we use it. We would then be in a cycle where we would expend our energy to low levels, spam a CP builder which did low damage but regened our energy faster, and then we would repeat and start spending that energy again. We would have a more interesting combat rotation, energy regeneration would no longer be an issue at low haste levels, and at high haste levels we would focus on the larger hitting, higher costing abilities instead of the lower hitting, energy regening abilities which would naturally increase our DPS with our ilvls.

    This is what I want to see with the class. Trying to say removing SnD would dumb down a class which is already extremely basic in it's rotation is the wrong way to look at it. Getting rid of the passive mandatory skill opens up our rotation to having something way more interesting in it's place, and that's what we need /imo. The Rogue class is stale. It needs something new.

    /imo of course.

  4. #24
    High Overlord thane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yutani View Post
    Does SnD actually increase Energy Regen? I thought only +haste grants quicker regen.

    Either way:
    Rogues were always energy starved while on target because turns out people can push 1,1,1,1,2 pretty fast and pretty often.


    btw: I don't think SnD should be removed either. Keeping two things up in PvE is not really that complicated and PvP well it's PvP not raiding so sometimes you have to prioritize over which finisher to keep up.
    no, you are right, it does not.
    slice and dice ONLY increased you attack speed, not your actualy haste or energy regen
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ambushu View Post
    Monks are this expansions version of DK's back in Wrath.
    Except not good.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by thane View Post
    no, you are right, it does not.
    slice and dice ONLY increased you attack speed, not your actualy haste or energy regen
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=79152. It does for sub

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Algroda View Post
    They meant the move itself not talents and anything else connected towards the move.

  8. #28
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    Sub is by far the fastest spec of the three. The energy regen is not a problem for me, and if it's DPS was more consistent with Assassination, I'd be rolling Sub for sure. The only spec that I think needs attention is Combat. The energy regen is far too RNG reliant.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Yutani View Post
    Does SnD actually increase Energy Regen? I thought only +haste grants quicker regen.

    Either way:
    Rogues were always energy starved while on target because turns out people can push 1,1,1,1,2 pretty fast and pretty often.


    btw: I don't think SnD should be removed either. Keeping two things up in PvE is not really that complicated and PvP well it's PvP not raiding so sometimes you have to prioritize over which finisher to keep up.
    SnD should actually be reworked, the current design of it is just terrible as you NEED to have it 100% uptime, losing out just a little amount already means a massive amount of lost dmg, it's ridiculous. Either they need to nerf the Skill itself down to 15-20% and give more Base speed or completly rework what it does.
    As for me i stopped playing my Rogue becaues it's terrible boring, especially because of the Energy regen which is so bad with low gear it makes absolutly no fun at all and also.. massive Passive damage instead of active, CP on Target and other little annoyances that makes this class ready for a makeover since.. eh.. forever.

  10. #30
    Dreadlord Vanthem's Avatar
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    For PvP, I think the energy regen is fine for Sub atm. PvE wise, Mutilate is fine imo. Combat last tier was just shitty as far as regen goes, but thats just my imo.

    I do not think they need to remove SnD unless its only being removed for Mutilate because if you know your class, SnD will never fall off as Mutilate unless in certain parts of fights.

    Btw, if you think Rogue Regen is awful, try playing a PvP Feral. That shit is 100 times worse than a Rogue.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Rigapples View Post
    The MAJOR issue I have with Rogues today is the very high penalty to switching targets. They still haven't put ComboPoints on the rogue, and Redirect really only helps on a single target switch once per minute. Any fight where we are constantly having to switch targets kills our DPS. MfD is a decent alternative to solve this when we are switching targets for small adds, but in cases where we are not killing the target it does not help (and losing out on Anticipation is a big negative as well. Lost CPs also contributes to significant DPS loss.)

    You want more players to play Rogue? Make them more interesting.
    While it may seem like straying from the original topic (rogue energy regen) to discuss the nature of combo points, I think it is relevant to say that this thread concerns itself with the current state of rogue RESOURCE management. Combo points, like energy, are a resource that rogues need to manage in order to maintain their passive damage bonuses (SnD, envenom buff), their defensive bonus (recup and STUNS), and their flat damage bursts (evis/envenom, rupture, etc.). (And let's not forget relentless strikes.) In short, some players feel that the relationship between energy regen/consumption and the nature of combo point generation/transfer leaves them feeling "starved" at times, i.e. in a moment with no button to push, and they blame it either on their gear's passive stats or on the class mechanics.

    To ask for a significant change (such as removing SnD or making CPs stack on the rogue) to the way that rogues gather these resources for their abilities 1) seems too drastic to me as a way of "fixing" the player's issues with resource management, e.g. by making CPs easier to track/transfer and 2) seems redundant: in a sense, rogue already works like monk in that we build combo points while facing a target; the "difference" is that the monk can immediately switch to another target and expend those combo points, whereas the rogue must expend his existing combo points on the original target before switching (assuming Redirect isn't up). This means that, with planning, we hardly ever have to lose effective combo points in a multi-target situation. In fact, I would submit that rogues have it better in terms of combo points as a resource because we have poisons and a good deal of extra passive damage in the form of bleeds and venomous wounds, whereas monks have only one-time damage abilities and no dots. I would consider this extra damage an equitable trade-off for the convenience of simpler combo points. What I mean to say is that we are on equal footing with monks already, if not advantaged over them, in that, in addition to the advantage of having DoTs that linger when we switch targets, we can STILL CHOOSE how we "carry" our combo points as a resource from one target to another, by passively buffing ourselves (by investing in a SnD or an envenom buff), by redirecting our CPs to the next target, or by expending our existing CPs for damage (rupture, evis, CT) before switching. We have lots of options in combat as is, why seek to oversimplify?

    Personally, I find rogue energy and CP management (albeit as assassination) thrilling in a multi-target situation; between maintaining DP/rupture/envenom uptimes and trying to maximize venomous vim returns, I never have a "starved" moment. Also, I agree that Assassination basically already has SnD baked in - what's stopping Blizz from doing something similar for Combat/Sub? Would that quell the malcontents? Messing with CP transfer seems counterproductive to me; it removes the planning and quick decision-making "skill" that I enjoy about rogue dps and puts monk in an extremely unfair place. I am not even considering the PVP ramifications of having CPs on the rogue; think: stuns. Furthermore, earlier attempts to make CP transfer more convenient (remember Versatility?) wasted our time. Lastly, removing SnD, assuming CP stuff stays the same, removes one of our major ways of avoiding losing CPs when switching targets.
    Last edited by himitsurugi; 2013-04-21 at 11:50 PM.

  12. #32
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    I do feel like SnD is a bit of a silly ability on a philosophical level, this move that is supposed to be 100% uptime on all three specs that simply makes us swing faster. Why not just make us swing faster by default?

    That said, getting rid of it would have two considerable downsides:

    (a) fewer things to track makes the class a little more boring. Considering we already have few people playing rogue precisely for this reason, this is a serious factor. Devs should be increasing how fun and flashy our class feels, not paring it down even more.

    (b) decreases the performance gap between a good rogue and a bad rogue. I think it's critical to design philosophy that while all classes are easy to pick up on a fundamental level, it's very important that the good players stand out. We're already in a position where so much of our dps is white damage (and poison damage), so this divide is already probably more narrow that it should be.

    So while I'm not a big fan of SnD in theory, I think it adds something valuable to the class. If it was removed in favour of a base speed increase, it would really have to be replaced with something else.
    Last edited by Tziva; 2013-04-22 at 12:35 AM. Reason: ENGLISH SO BAD. man.
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  13. #33
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    At this point it's only serving as a way to nerf our finisher frequency really.

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  14. #34
    The real problem with abilities such as SnD is that they are just maintenance buffs -- things you're forced to keep up for no real reason other than to passively increase your damage and give you another button to push every 'x' seconds.

    As maintenance buffs go, however, SnD is rather on the healthier side of "at least when I push this button, something other than numbers happens." Inquisition and Savage Roar, for example, are much worse in that their ONLY function is to increase a number in the background. At least with SnD you have weapon speed, poison application, and (for Subtlety) energy regeneration tied to it.

    That said, I for one would love to see maintenance buffs purged altogether.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Earth View Post
    That said, I for one would love to see maintenance buffs purged altogether.
    Yes, please. It doesn't feel "good" to hit SnD, or Savage Roar, or Rupture as sub - you're not going "Aww yeah I swing faster now," but instead when you lose it you go "AW F--- I SCREWED UP". All rotational negatives with no rotational positives; you know it's working because your damage is good rather than shit, not because it does any damage by itself - and that just feels bad.

  16. #36
    That's subjective and opinion though, mugajak. I find having fast swing times fun. Nailing a rotation with a high uptime of SnD with minimal overlap IS fun to me. And if Blizzard caves to the 99% and stacks combo points on the rogue, I'd be very disappointed in them. That would be a bad design move for the class, imo.

    That said, damage DOES need to shift to finishers to make those combo points matter. SnD needs to last longer (I think a 5-pt SnD should last a minute), finisher damage needs to come up, and damage needs to be compensated for in other ways (nerf to assassin's resolve, sanguinary veins, and ambidexterity come to mind).
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-04-22 at 10:55 AM.

  17. #37
    My issue with SnD isn't that it makes a flurry of small swings - we're wielding light weapons, or at least wearing the lightest armor of any hand-hand combatant - but the style of "press this so you don't lose damage" is unappealing to me; which, of course, is subjective. I enjoyed the playstyle of early Firelands Subtlety when it was a juggling act to keep everything in the right place and pick what could be lost when things lined up just the wrong way... but other than SnD, every ability you used actively had heft; you used SnD because it was effective, rupture was automatic, eviscerate hit reasonably hard, recup kept you swinging when other raiders died, and even your backstabs felt like they hit for something - but in every case, you were down to wire to stop from missing something. That same style without any element of challenge (really, what's the danger you're going to find yourself short CP for SnD, or thinking "I need to refresh it early because I'm going to cap" now that we have anticipation)?

    SnD felt less important then (and may have been less important?), so dropping it temporarily was less of a reason to curse, but really, what it came down to most was that I liked the juggling act, of figuring out when what was going to drop and how it should line up, and having to make decisions about what to cut where. In the end, the only hits I really looked forward to were the eviscerates that pinged the bleed back to full, both from a flavor perspective - the idea that I reopened a bleeding wound with a vicious strike - and because nothing else really made sense... after backstabbing someone three times and seeing openings created by your allies' critical attacks, you.... swing your weapons faster for 24/36 seconds? Start regenerating health?

    I am ALL for moving damage off of auto-attacks and onto other abilities, but that's got less to do with our passive damage bonuses, and more to do with the overarching design of rogue damage in MoP, and SnD in particular, because the huge increase to damage it gives us, when melee by itself is as large a chunk of our damage as it is, prevents other abilities from standing out quite as much. I just think our system could be redesigned into something far more compelling, where the buttons you press feel like they have impact. You might be empowering it from the shadows, but all that magical, wonderful, delicious DPS comes primarily from those persistent auto-attacks that occur even if you tab out for a few seconds.

    ...which feeds back into the question of why we have ramping energy over an expansion from "tabbed out, pooling" to "SO MUCH ENERGY", but I think that one gets brought up every tier.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    For me our regen is fine at the moment. I am Assass and dont stack Haste but it is ok.

    To be honest, it is all about damage. I would rather have to wait for energy and do sick damage than spam like hell and do average damage.
    this 100%. I like how you have to pool energy to be a good assassination rogue. shows the difference between someone with skill and someone who just uses his finishers whenever he gets a chance to do so.
    ~

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by lolpve View Post
    Disagree with everything in this thread.

    -Rogues don't have tons of problems, we have a few very minor ones
    -SnD and a bleed can be up within 1 second of opening as sub
    -You dont need 100% recup uptime unless you're horrible. Rogues are about active abilities and not passive nonsense anyway, if you want easymode play warrior.
    -Removing SnD would dumb the class down.

    You're essentially say this "despite rogues being one of the better classes, it's still not strong enough for me so I think rogues should be dumbed down so I can be effective". Please please reroll.
    The issue is, any spec a Rogue has to offer isnt a challenge. It's easy and really boring. No matter how you swing it, the dps rotations are boring. The class isn't hard by any means. So saying "easymode lol rollzwarrior" is pointless because in MoP no class is hard.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 09:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharlok View Post
    this 100%. I like how you have to pool energy to be a good assassination rogue. shows the difference between someone with skill and someone who just uses his finishers whenever he gets a chance to do so.
    And even then the dps difference is pretty low. I think most Rogues been pooling energy as far back as I remember, the ones that don't do what? 5k less dps.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 09:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanthem View Post
    For PvP, I think the energy regen is fine for Sub atm. PvE wise, Mutilate is fine imo. Combat last tier was just shitty as far as regen goes, but thats just my imo.

    I do not think they need to remove SnD unless its only being removed for Mutilate because if you know your class, SnD will never fall off as Mutilate unless in certain parts of fights.

    Btw, if you think Rogue Regen is awful, try playing a PvP Feral. That shit is 100 times worse than a Rogue.
    I stopped playing Feral for that reason, jst too starved and no fun for me.

  20. #40
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miko View Post
    The issue is, any spec a Rogue has to offer isnt a challenge. It's easy and really boring. No matter how you swing it, the dps rotations are boring. The class isn't hard by any means. So saying "easymode lol rollzwarrior" is pointless because in MoP no class is hard.
    From a PvE PoV, that has always been the case anyway. How people aren't able to play any class within a weeks time amazes me.

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