Confused about Combat gemming prio - Haste>Agility?

[Demonized]

Both Icy Veins and Shadowcraft (Optimize Gems function) is telling me that I should gem for haste over agility. Is this really correct? I have always been under the impression that agility is the #1 stat priority for all rogue specs. I don't have the best PvE gear (491 ilvl), no set bonuses, if that matters.

Anyway, link: http://icy-veins.com/combat-rogue-wo...ns-consumables

[celinamuna]

In the current moment dependin on other stats often enough the 2 haste will be > 1 agility.

[theherecy]

Agility IS the best stat for rogues no questions asked. However haste is still very valuable!

Take the following as an example:

Agility gives you 2 DPS
Haste gives you 1.5 DPS

If you chose between 80 agility or 80 haste, take the agility obviously. What we actually find is that there is 160 agility or 320 haste and so going for the extra haste is better (320 vs 480)

[Coldkil]

Basically it's not about the stats, but the gems. Up to cata the gems had the rame amount of primary and secondary stats - basically it was a nobrainer because AGI was (and still is) worth nearly the double copared to your better secondary stat.

The fact is that secondary stat gems now have x2 the amount of primary stat ones, and the difference in stat values is smaller than before - hence it's perfectly possible that a 320haste gem becomes better than a 160 agi gem.

[Kael]

To re-clarify what theherecy said, if it's not clear, you're not comparing 1 haste to 1 agility, but 2 haste to 1 agility, which, after a certain point, favors haste. As combat, gemming haste (for the foreseeable future, to my knowledge) is ahead.

Coldkil beat me to it!

[Deleted]

Until 5.1, yes, 2 haste was better then 1 agility. From 5.2 this is not happenz anymore couse blizzard have buff the Vitality AP bonus from 20 to 25 %.

Now 1 agility is around 2.75 EP and 1 haste is around 1.30 EP (2 haste is 2.60 EP and worst then 1 agility)

You should gem 160 haste/80agility only on Yellow socket.

[dicertification]

Until 5.1, yes, 2 haste was better then 1 agility. From 5.2 this is not happenz anymore couse blizzard have buff the Vitality AP bonus from 20 to 25 %.

Now 1 agility is around 2.75 EP and 1 haste is around 1.30 EP (2 haste is 2.60 EP and worst then 1 agility)

You should gem 160 haste/80agility only on Yellow socket.

This is correct. After 5.2 this all changed for combat with the boost to vitality.

[Demonized]

Thanks for the replies guys, it makes sense that haste from gems is nearly as beneficial as agi when you get twice the stat amount.

Now 1 agility is around 2.75 EP and 1 haste is around 1.30 EP (2 haste is 2.60 EP and worst then 1 agility)

You should gem 160 haste/80agility only on Yellow socket.

Thanks for the numbers sonny, then I will continue doing this.

[theherecy]

Thanks for the replies guys, it makes sense that haste from gems is nearly as beneficial as agi when you get twice the stat amount.



Thanks for the numbers sonny, then I will continue doing this.

Although go find you're own weightings on Shadowcraft, don't trust icyveins or askmrrobot to provide you with absolute ones; they won't be right.

[shadowboy]

Until 5.1, yes, 2 haste was better then 1 agility. From 5.2 this is not happenz anymore couse blizzard have buff the Vitality AP bonus from 20 to 25 %.

Now 1 agility is around 2.75 EP and 1 haste is around 1.30 EP (2 haste is 2.60 EP and worst then 1 agility)

You should gem 160 haste/80agility only on Yellow socket.

The change in vitality is not what caused haste to be devalued in 5.2. Actually RPPM trinkets INCREASE the value of haste.

The reason why haste is devalued now is because the 5.2 shadowcraft engine was changed to model dps in phases, which allowed the engine to model energy capping.

Prior to 5.2, shadowcraft assumed you spent every point of energy that was regenerated. Mastery offers more damage-per-point than haste, but haste offers more energy-per-point, and the two balance out. Once you start overflowing more energy, mastery starts to become a more attractive stat.

[Deleted]

The change in vitality is not what caused haste to be devalued in 5.2. Actually RPPM trinkets INCREASE the value of haste.

The reason why haste is devalued now is because the 5.2 shadowcraft engine was changed to model dps in phases, which allowed the engine to model energy capping.

Prior to 5.2, shadowcraft assumed you spent every point of energy that was regenerated. Mastery offers more damage-per-point than haste, but haste offers more energy-per-point, and the two balance out. Once you start overflowing more energy, mastery starts to become a more attractive stat.

Does Shadowcraft take into account if you have a RPPM trinket when deciding whether you should gem for haste or agility? Right now I (combat spec, 502 ilvl, 4 T14-setbonus) is at 10k haste and 5k mastery, and if I press optimize gems I end up with 2.3k less haste and around 1200 more agi, and, according to Shadowcraft, 1k more DPS. Not that much difference in DPS, but quite a difference in haste. Will that effect the RPPM trinket (Bad juju) I have?

[Ryme]

Does Shadowcraft take into account if you have a RPPM trinket when deciding whether you should gem for haste or agility? Right now I (combat spec, 502 ilvl, 4 T14-setbonus) is at 10k haste and 5k mastery, and if I press optimize gems I end up with 2.3k less haste and around 1200 more agi, and, according to Shadowcraft, 1k more DPS. Not that much difference in DPS, but quite a difference in haste. Will that effect the RPPM trinket (Bad juju) I have?

Shadowcraft should be performing an accurate approximation to the effects of RPPM trinkets which should include the effect they have haste, haste will impact the uptime of your trinkets in a manner that is far more complicated than I am able to spend the time going into here.

I imagine that Shadowcraft is taking in to account these changes, but estimating that it will remain a dps increase for you to reforge that way. You should try running simulationcraft alongside shadowcraft for a second opinion.

[Deleted]

Shadowcraft should be performing an accurate approximation to the effects of RPPM trinkets which should include the effect they have haste, haste will impact the uptime of your trinkets in a manner that is far more complicated than I am able to spend the time going into here.

I imagine that Shadowcraft is taking in to account these changes, but estimating that it will remain a dps increase for you to reforge that way. You should try running simulationcraft alongside shadowcraft for a second opinion.

Thanks for the reply. I've run SimC now and it confirms what Shadowcraft says, that regemming for agi yields about 1k dps increase.