Page 14 of 74 FirstFirst ...
4
12
13
14
15
16
24
64
... LastLast
  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's an echo of what they tried in Cataclysm: the lesser players were to do T11 after T12 came out, and T11 normal got a blanket 20% nerf.

    That didn't work. Asking people to do T14 now doesn't work either.
    It worked in vanilla. New guilds started in Molten Core/Zul'Gurub and worked their way through Blackwing Lair and Ahn'qiraj as they geared up. That's what happened with my guild, we formed while Ahn'qiraj was out, killed Ragnaros, got Nefarian down about by Naxxramas' release and made it to C'thun and a few Naxxramas bosses when Burning Crusade dropped.

    I had a similar experience in Burning Crusade. You saw the beginnings of this new system that accidently erased feelings of progression in the Zul'aman patch that removed attunements for Hyjal/Black Temple and Wrath really put it into full swing.

  2. #262
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,972
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Again, no.
    Raids have never been for everyone to go in with welfare epics and beat the content from A to Z. Maybe first 4 bosses, like it is now, but not more.

    Ulduar, average guilds wouldnt get past keepers like Freya, Thorim, Mirmiron
    ToC, average guilds wouldnt get past faction champs.
    ICC, average guilds would kinda stop after saurfang.
    Cata, average guilds wouldn't get past (boss that brings you to 1HP ...) and atramedes.
    Firelands, average guilds wouldn't get past , well thats a bit more debatable but say the driving boss?
    DS, average guilds wouldn't ... well the gradual nerfs helped a lot so thats hard to appraise, but pre nerfs Zonozz was a massdive cockblock, let alone the color selection on Yorsahj

    So yeah, erm, no.

    Mark my words, once these bad guilds who couldn't beat horridon have beaten the first 4, they are going to cry for nerfs on the next 4. And so on.
    Notice that average guilds didn't used to be able to get past boss 4-7 of an instance, back in the exclusive days.

    Not boss 2. ;p

    But that's all moot - because of ICC (stacking debuff, everyone gets to the end) and DS (stacking debuff, everyone gets to the end) I said that the average guild should be clearing the tier before it was over. This was the case in ICC, DS, FL etc
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  3. #263
    Well, my guild cleared Horridon and Council and Tortos all earlier in the tier. We're a pretty casual 10m guild with 6 raiding hours a week, and we move along at a fair clip.

    We've already done our progression on those bosses, what do I care that they're easier now? Other guilds will be able to get a little bit farther, have a little more fun, and feel like they're making progress again, and its not like that hurts us any, or diminishes our work. Stagnation is the guild killer to end all guild killers, so these sorts of nerfs are very, very healthy for smaller, more casual guilds.

    Now our farm bosses will be a little easier to clear, and that'll buy us a little more time to work on progression bosses, and make it less of a fight to get undergeared off-raiders in on farm bosses so that we can hang with our friends who aren't around as consistently.

    I really don't see how this negatively impacts anyone. Either you've already downed it and the nerfs only make farming easier, you're already working on Heroic modes so it doesn't affect you at all, or you're moving slowly and your guild can find progression a little easier.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    It's funny how people are complaining about ToT difficulty, yet more guilds killed lei-shen on normal already (% wise) then the number of guilds that killed LK even after the 30% buff.
    LK was also overtuned. I've pointed that out for years. For all its supposed facerollness, most people who raided in Wrath couldn't finish it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 04:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It worked in vanilla.
    No, it didn't. Only a small number raided, and only a vanishly small number made it to the end of the raids.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    No.
    You got LFR to play with if you don't want to play to the fullest.
    Otherwise, with the direction we are taking atm :

    Everyone (absolutely everyone) can clear normal (thats what you want right ?)
    Average guilds get into HCs. What happens then ? We have the same conversation about HCs ?

    Raids are not for everyone. Its the pinnacle of WoW.
    they introduced LFR for people who couldnt do normals but wanted to see the content. Do that, and go do quests and rep, and then maybe, if you commit enough effort (over 2-5 hours per week roughly), you can do normals.

    Yes raids are the pinnacle of WoW but then the real pinnacle is heroic modes. Normal modes should be tuned for normal raiders not the pinnacle and if 50% of guilds are still on the first 4 bosses then that is the level of normal raiders. I just don't understand the rationale that less people should raid. The more raiders the more Blizzard can justify spending on raids and everybody wins.

  6. #266
    Why is anyone surprised? Blizzard will nerf that which is overtuned, regardless whether the top-realm guilds think it's needed or not.

    Most guilds probably needed these nerfs in some way.
    Nyoro~n? (´・ω・`)
    5:2 diet? Pft!

    One year, 62kg/136lb lost. Only a little bit left...

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    But how can you say that when the majority of guilds are still on the first 4 bosses and by definition are threfore average.
    Only heroic level raiders have killed the first 4 bosses. But this guy seems to think Normal raids should be tuned for heroic raiders, not normal.

    Anyone that ahs already killed the 4 first bosses will have at least half the bosses killed in Heroic before the next tier. Because they are heroic raiders, not normal.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    LK was also overtuned. I've pointed that out for years. For all its supposed facerollness, most people who raided in Wrath couldn't finish it.
    So basically every boss that doesn't roll over and die is overtuned ? And if not, do tell the % of the people who killed the first boss, who should kill the final boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Only heroic level raiders have killed the first 4 bosses. But this guy seems to think Normal raids should be tuned for heroic raiders, not normal.

    Anyone that ahs already killed the 4 first bosses will have at least half the bosses killed in Heroic before the next tier. Because they are heroic raiders, not normal.
    Not a heroic raider and yet i killed 7 boss so far ? Did i break the matrix ? None of the bosses as that impossibly soul crushing and they're made out to be.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    LK was also overtuned. I've pointed that out for years. For all its supposed facerollness, most people who raided in Wrath couldn't finish it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 04:45 PM ----------



    No, it didn't. Only a small number raided, and only a vanishly small number made it to the end of the raids.

    But we have LFR now. If people want to see the content they can do that. Why is it absolutely necessary that everyone finish a harder version of the same boss? That just erodes any sense of accomplishment people might get from it.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    No.
    You got LFR to play with if you don't want to play to the fullest.
    Otherwise, with the direction we are taking atm :

    Everyone (absolutely everyone) can clear normal (thats what you want right ?)
    Average guilds get into HCs. What happens then ? We have the same conversation about HCs ?

    Raids are not for everyone. Its the pinnacle of WoW.
    they introduced LFR for people who couldnt do normals but wanted to see the content. Do that, and go do quests and rep, and then maybe, if you commit enough effort (over 2-5 hours per week roughly), you can do normals.
    "Everyone" is not attempting Normal raids, only raiders are, and as a normal distribution curve indicates, a NORMAL modes should be aimed for the amount of people in the middle os that normal distribution.

    No, not everyone should be able to clear Normal modes, but a lot more than 25% should.

  11. #271
    Fuck it. Nerf everything by 80% NOW.
    Then everyone will be able to do it, and no one will be able to complain they can't finish raids.

    but in 3 months we are gonna ask for more content, and Blizz is gonna reply 'sry guys, see you in 6-8 months'.

    Complaining and nerfing after 1 month and 5 days is completely ridiculous. Most of the guilds failing to kill horridon don't even farm previous tiers for gear, why should they be given the latest kills on a silver platter ?

    Really, the player level is diminishing every day. I get your points that difficulty should be tuned to the player base, and i disagree. I think it should be here to raise people's skill level, not lower itself to them.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    "Everyone" is not attempting Normal raids, only raiders are, and as a normal distribution curve indicates, a NORMAL modes should be aimed for the amount of people in the middle os that normal distribution.

    No, not everyone should be able to clear Normal modes, but a lot more than 25% should.

    It's only been a month. Do you know what would happen if more than 25% had cleared normal modes already? They'd hit an absolute wall in heroics and get bored and quit. Blizzard needs to make content last until the next raid. Check the numbers when this tier ENDS and we'll talk.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    But we have LFR now. If people want to see the content they can do that. Why is it absolutely necessary that everyone finish a harder version of the same boss? That just erodes any sense of accomplishment people might get from it.
    There is a large difficulty hole between LFR and current normal modes. Many guilds have fallen into this hole. The number of guilds that are experiencing distress (or failed) from this problem appears to be much larger than the number of guilds enjoying the highest end raid modes. They could shift the difficulty of normal and heroic raids modes down to cover the hole, but they have not. Most raiders doing normals now could shift to heroics. Only the very highest end raiders would run out of challenging content.

    I suggest that a design that stomps on lots of customers, in order to please a smaller number, is clearly and obviously a bad design.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    The more raiders the more Blizzard can justify spending on raids and everybody wins.
    this has never been the case in the history of wow. It's just wishful thinking

  15. #275
    Lol at the nerdraging because content gets nerfed. Honestly we killed these bosses before the nerfs, and now it lets us get to the later progression fights (and epic trash) that much more quicker so it's a welcome change to even those that didn't need it.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Not a heroic raider and yet i killed 7 boss so far ? Did i break the matrix ? None of the bosses as that impossibly soul crushing and they're made out to be.
    And then I look at your DK on the armory and notice you're 1/12 heroic.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It's only been a month. Do you know what would happen if more than 25% had cleared normal modes already? They'd hit an absolute wall in heroics and get bored and quit. Blizzard needs to make content last until the next raid. Check the numbers when this tier ENDS and we'll talk.
    So much this. You are going to clear content and then cry there's nothing to do.

    If you are not beating the first 4 bosses normal at the moment - you are not supposed to be in ToT. Go T14 and farm gear through valor etc.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It's only been a month. Do you know what would happen if more than 25% had cleared normal modes already? They'd hit an absolute wall in heroics and get bored and quit. Blizzard needs to make content last until the next raid. Check the numbers when this tier ENDS and we'll talk.
    The problem is the percentages on wowprogress.com don't reflect the guilds that have dropped out of normal mode raiding entirely, or that never started due to their perception of how hard it would be. If raids are designed to be easier, guilds of lower and lower capability will attempt them, and the clearance % of guilds with nonzero progress will be restrained.

    If Blizzard is having a problem now, it's probably with the absolute number of guilds even attempting T15 normal bosses. The numbers appear to be down substantially past the first boss.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  19. #279
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,972
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    So much this. You are going to clear content and then cry there's nothing to do.

    If you are not beating the first 4 bosses normal at the moment - you are not supposed to be in ToT. Go T14 and farm gear through valor etc.
    People won't do that.

    You can either whine about it or accept it. I suggest accepting it.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Fuck it. Nerf everything by 80% NOW.
    Then everyone will be able to do it, and no one will be able to complain they can't finish raids.

    but in 3 months we are gonna ask for more content, and Blizz is gonna reply 'sry guys, see you in 6-8 months'.

    Complaining and nerfing after 1 month and 5 days is completely ridiculous. Most of the guilds failing to kill horridon don't even farm previous tiers for gear, why should they be given the latest kills on a silver platter ?

    Really, the player level is diminishing every day. I get your points that difficulty should be tuned to the player base, and i disagree. I think it should be here to raise people's skill level, not lower itself to them.
    Ah yes nothing like a bit of exageration to get your point across. I don't believe anyone here is arguing that everyone should be able to clear normal modes. Your average raider in your average raid guild should be able to progress through the tier and be close to finishing it by the time the next tier comes along.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •