Holy mother 10man nerf

[Sansnom]

They also clearly do not intend you to skip tiers this expansion.

I am not so sure if this is a good idea. I know some, not sure if it is the majority, have been asking for this. A return to the old TBC progression model. The problem is the problem associated with this model may also return.

Raid progression is great if you happen to keep up with the current raid. It sucks if you are behind because the number of people raiding previous tiers are much lower so your own progression is now slower. So you end being further behind because your progression is now much slower than those in the current raid tier.

[Glorious Leader]

I am not so sure if this is a good idea. I know some, not sure if it is the majority, have been asking for this. A return to the old TBC progression model. The problem is the problem associated with this model may also return.

Raid progression is great if you happen to keep up with the current raid. It sucks if you are behind because the number of people raiding previous tiers are much lower so your own progression is now slower. So you end being further behind because your progression is now much slower than those in the current raid tier.

And the problem with throne isn't really the gear or the tuning. The problem is that every fight is so god damn busy. Constant running around trying to avoid damage and even when you do avoid something you still take dmg. Theirs no reason I should take dmg if I'm good enough to avoid rock fall or the stupid green explosion crap on megara.

[Sesshou]

I am not so sure if this is a good idea. I know some, not sure if it is the majority, have been asking for this. A return to the old TBC progression model. The problem is the problem associated with this model may also return.

Raid progression is great if you happen to keep up with the current raid. It sucks if you are behind because the number of people raiding previous tiers are much lower so your own progression is now slower. So you end being further behind because your progression is now much slower than those in the current raid tier.

Whether or not it is a better model is irrelevant because it being worse doesn't make it not the model we have (if it is worse). The rest of the bosses aren't overtuned just because you can't skip t14 gear and kill them.

And I would disagree that the BC problems are present. BC had no PvE method to catch back up (pvp gear generally worked well to supplement areas you might be lacking in such as weapons). BC didn't have the equivalent of valor items until sunwell (or was it just super late BT?). BC also did not have LFR which provided higher ilvl gear than the previous tier of normal mode raiding (ok well there was only normal mode in BC). BC didn't nerf old instances to make them more accessible when new ones came out (to be clear I mean flat out nerfs like the 10% to everything in t14, they did nerf certain bosses). You can argue that it is still a bad model and you are certainly allowed to have that opinion, but your comparison to the BC model fails because the circumstances now and then are no where near the same.

[Glorious Leader]

Whether or not it is a better model is irrelevant because it being worse doesn't make it not the model we have (if it is worse). The rest of the bosses aren't overtuned just because you can't skip t14 gear and kill them.

And I would disagree that the BC problems are present. BC had no PvE method to catch back up (pvp gear generally worked well to supplement areas you might be lacking in such as weapons). BC didn't have the equivalent of valor items until sunwell (or was it just super late BT?). BC also did not have LFR which provided higher ilvl gear than the previous tier of normal mode raiding (ok well there was only normal mode in BC). BC didn't nerf old instances to make them more accessible when new ones came out (to be clear I mean flat out nerfs like the 10% to everything in t14, they did nerf certain bosses). You can argue that it is still a bad model and you are certainly allowed to have that opinion, but your comparison to the BC model fails because the circumstances now and then are no where near the same.

It fails because they gave people another option. It doesn't fucking say much for the model when you presesnt players with another option and they ABANDON the tbc model in such numbers.

They would rather cheese the system by spending jp at a loss to buy honor gear. Doesn't say much for going back to do old tiers does it? People avoid it at every fucking opportunity. That's also another reason raid participation has dropped. Even if you manage to get into a decent guild NOBODY want's to go back and run the old content to take you through it, who in their right mind would? Instead you get absurd requests for gear score both as a requirement to raid and as a requirement to pug. It's back to good old GS days.

As I said it by and large has NOTHING to do with fights being over tuned and everything to do with the constant overwhelming bullshit mechanics. Like even if you avoid them your reward for avoiding something is to still take dmg. That right there ought to be a hard mode thing NOT in normals. Horridon is less mechanic overloaded but is a massive gear check and the nerfs to Horridon reflect this.

[Vargur]

(Looks at signature... sees 8/16 heroic progress and a top 4% toon with a 518 ilevel)

Yeah, we might need to define the word casual a bit more tightly.

---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 10:47 AM ----------



Noted. My apologies.

Lol
First of all, I said fairly casual. I don't consider 11/12N after 6 weeks of content anything but. Not to mention 8/16HC in the LAST tier, which granted, we haven't done since this tier began. My point is that it was already easy.

[Caliph]

and yet the guild i'm in we still fail. sigh.

[Definition]

Why is everyone so mad about this, it's normal mode, and it affects pretty much no one. Faster farm clears for all :3

[NeverStop]

It fails because they gave people another option. It doesn't fucking say much for the model when you presesnt players with another option and they ABANDON the tbc model in such numbers.

They would rather cheese the system by spending jp at a loss to buy honor gear. Doesn't say much for going back to do old tiers does it? People avoid it at every fucking opportunity. That's also another reason raid participation has dropped. Even if you manage to get into a decent guild NOBODY want's to go back and run the old content to take you through it, who in their right mind would? Instead you get absurd requests for gear score both as a requirement to raid and as a requirement to pug. It's back to good old GS days.

As I said it by and large has NOTHING to do with fights being over tuned and everything to do with the constant overwhelming bullshit mechanics. Like even if you avoid them your reward for avoiding something is to still take dmg. That right there ought to be a hard mode thing NOT in normals. Horridon is less mechanic overloaded but is a massive gear check and the nerfs to Horridon reflect this.

TBC was awesome. There was no catch up gear pre-Sunwell, so you actually had to put in effort to kill a boss. My casual 2 day a week guild was stuck on Lady Vash'j for over two months. No one got mad because we couldn't down her, and we just kept going wipe after wipe until we got the gear an execution to kill her. Now, everyone whines if they can't kill a boss after a week when they should really be trying to get better so they can overcome that obstacle.

[HardCoder]

I'm sorry but for the people whining that they 'HAVE' to run t14 to get gear to get past the first few bosses in throne, where the hell were you when t14 was current content?

Maybe they were ... not playing?

Let's suppose your friends are playing Tiger Woods 20 12 hours a week and they love it and you decide to play with them. So you buy Tiger Woods 20. It turns out, you have to go play Tiger Woods 19 with a bunch of other people for a month first. Is Tiger Woods 20 awesome?

Basically, there is NO good reason that when a new tier comes out that people should have to progress through the previous tier. Here are the two most common situations:

* Someone brand new to the game starts mid expansion. "Sorry, you have to play the game from a few months ago first before you can play with the cool kids."

* Someone who was TRYING to work through the previous tier but for whatever reason failed. "Sorry, you have to keep failing before you can play with the cool kids."

Neither of these will create or keep satisfied customers.

---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 11:14 PM ----------

Why is everyone so mad about this, it's normal mode, and it affects pretty much no one. Faster farm clears for all :3

Actually, given that heroic should be something only the top 5-10% of serious guilds can clear before the next tier, normal mode should affect "pretty much everyone."

The problem is that normal mode isn't for everyone, it's for that same 5-10% that don't give a shit about it and are only interested in heroic.

---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 11:20 PM ----------

Lol
First of all, I said fairly casual. I don't consider 11/12N after 6 weeks of content anything but. Not to mention 8/16HC in the LAST tier, which granted, we haven't done since this tier began. My point is that it was already easy.

Casual, right now, is a guild that is stuck on NORMAL Horridon or Council, at least before these nerfs. Period. That is your "casual" guild. "Casual" is the capability of the bottom 50% of guilds that, with whatever preparation the "average" player has, go forth and tries to kill pixel dragons.

Bear in mind, most guilds never try to raid. The real "casual" player is one who never raids (other than LFR).

---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 11:22 PM ----------

TBC was awesome. There was no catch up gear pre-Sunwell, so you actually had to put in effort to kill a boss.

You had NO access to current content in TBC unless you started at the beginning of the expansion and played steadily from that point on.

So, sure, you could put in effort to kill a boss, but only the boss that you were allowed to kill due to gating and attunement. If that's the boss the cool kids are on, that's great. If it's not, well, sucktastic to be you.

[Deleted]

Come on stop exaggerating.

We raided T14 and did no heroics because we didnt have the time, barely killed the sha before 5.2 came out. We also had to to multiples runs into MSV and HOF during progression because we recruited some people without gear at all and we had to farm it for them.
We never had a full raid and we had to recruit 2/3 different people every week.
When ToT got out, we still raided HOF and ToeS twice to get that extra gear, and come on, its so nerfed its basically free loot.

If your gear sucks (because you didnt farm your valor point/reputation or whatever), and you refuse to go do 1 or 2 run of HoF/ToeS), and you complain about getting roflstomped, thats your fault. Do you prefer to spend a 2 hours cleaning an previous raid and then killing horridon, or wipe non stop on horridon for days because you cant do it with less gear ?) Its also a nice change of pace and builds your confidence to do the previous raid.

THEN we killed Jin'Rokh the first week and had time to try horridon the next day, we killed it the week after (we raid only 2/3 hours a raid, 2 times a week, lots of people with a wife, kids, have to get up really early for work etc..)

What lots of people seem to be forgetting too is, theres a lot of lambda guys creating group to go kill Jin cause he's a loot pinata, and sometimes they try horridon and get f*** up, so they just stop. Those people don't raid, they just want free loot.

Horridon isnt HARD. He requires some coordination, the only thing is : don't stad in the fire (sandtraps, frostorb, you name it), and get 2 sets of people on the venomancers, BL on 3rd door, > FREE LOOT. To me, the curse is almost perfect, every boss was challenging and felt like a good accomplishment when we killed it, maybe, MAYBE tortos was a little bit overtuned, but we killed it in ~20 try too.

Gear isnt a problem, in 2 days you can get a freshed up 90 toon and get him to 485 (just did it) without raiding at all. And you're telling me its hard to get 496 ilvl now ? Sure horridon in a big step comparing to Jin, but Jin was undertuned on purpose, he's actually easier than some HoF/ToeS boss. I agree the ramp-up should've be less steep, but you can't take random percentage of wipe or whatever and says horridon is too hard.
If we killed it in ~20/25 try with our lambda group raiding 5 hours a week, any average group can do it.

[Glorious Leader]

Casual, right now, is a guild that is stuck on NORMAL Horridon or Council, at least before these nerfs. Period. That is your "casual" guild. "Casual" is the capability of the bottom 50% of guilds that, with whatever preparation the "average" player has, go forth and tries to kill pixel dragons.

Bear in mind, most guilds never try to raid. The real "casual" player is one who never raids (other than LFR).[COLOR="red"]

Actually I disagree. I think it's worse than that. A real casual guild is a guild that now only raids lfr. The guild im in now used to think of itself as casual and still tries to be casual but the reality is were gonna have to add another raid night or potentially to if we want to see any progress or start extending lock outs. Were up to Megara now and we raid for 2 nights at about 3 hours a night. If we want to keep the boss a week pace up were gonna have to add more nights. Partially because theirs so much trash in the god damn instance you spend so much time either avoiding it or killing it. Partially because normal raiding is now in reality heroic raiding and "farm" content is almost never really in farm. Well except Jin Rok lol.

[HardCoder]

What lots of people seem to be forgetting too is, theres a lot of lambda guys creating group to go kill Jin cause he's a loot pinata, and sometimes they try horridon and get f*** up, so they just stop. Those people don't raid, they just want free loot.

Never in my life on WoW have I heard "LFG Jinrokh."

You think that someone would form a raid just to kill an easy boss for normal mode raid loot, and register that guild on WoWprogress or wherever, and kill one boss, and it would be "mission accomplished"?

Um, no dude, just no.

[Glorious Leader]

TBC was awesome. There was no catch up gear pre-Sunwell, so you actually had to put in effort to kill a boss. My casual 2 day a week guild was stuck on Lady Vash'j for over two months. No one got mad because we couldn't down her, and we just kept going wipe after wipe until we got the gear an execution to kill her. Now, everyone whines if they can't kill a boss after a week when they should really be trying to get better so they can overcome that obstacle.

The ironic thing is that TBC bosses were 10 times as fucking easy and I never felt overwhelmed in TBC. Seriously. In TBC by and large the rule of thumb was that if you avoided a mechanic you didn't get damaged from it. The rule of thumb in ToT is if you avoid a mechanic (i,e shit on the ground) you still get dmg from it. It's stupid.

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 07:41 AM ----------

Never in my life on WoW have I heard "LFG Jinrokh."

You think that someone would form a raid just to kill an easy boss for normal mode raid loot, and register that guild on WoWprogress or wherever, and kill one boss, and it would be "mission accomplished"?

Um, no dude, just no.

Yea not even close. Nobody wants to get stuck to a normal raid for ONE BOSS even "casuals". The same lockout cured that phenomenon by and large. You get one raid lockout a week, who the hell is going to potentially waste it on one boss? The developers are right, those bosses were overtuned and guess what's gonna happen to megara and ji kun and all the bosses down the line? You better fucking believe it.

[Rapti]

Proof of the oh old, old "10m is easier" confirmed!

[Deleted]

Never in my life on WoW have I heard "LFG Jinrokh."

You think that someone would form a raid just to kill an easy boss for normal mode raid loot, and register that guild on WoWprogress or wherever, and kill one boss, and it would be "mission accomplished"?

Um, no dude, just no.

I've seen an know loooads of people and/or guild who don't raid and just form a group, sometimes almost a guild group and goes to Jin with 2/3 pickups, kill him and get back.
To my knowledge, you don't need to register or whatever on wowhead for it to be counted, if your guild is on there and you kill it, it'll just appear there when the guild is refreshed.

Anyway, there's loads of people doing only jin because free loot and trying horridon for fun. (and failing cause that boss needs some actual effort)

Check this : http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Throne_of_Thunder/

Jin > Loot pinata
Horridon > 11% kill
Council > Same thing, so, around the "same" difficulty
Tortos > Big drop, lot harder
Megaera > Loot pinata
Ji'Kun > Even worse.
Durumu > Big block, guilds are gonna wipe on him a lot
Primordius > Biggest pinata in the raid
...
..
.

Horridon isnt hard, if there's tons of people wiping on him there must be a reason, we're average, and we killed it the second week of ToT..

[HardCoder]

Gear isnt a problem, in 2 days you can get a freshed up 90 toon and get him to 485 (just did it) without raiding at all.

I don't know how you would do that.

I mean, I really can't think of a way you could do that without spending a whole lot of gold, and having another toon with maxed reps to help you. But even then, I don't know how you could go from "fresh 90" to 485 in 2 days.

[Deleted]

I don't know how you would do that.

I mean, I really can't think of a way you could do that without spending a whole lot of gold, and having another toon with maxed reps to help you. But even then, I don't know how you could go from "fresh 90" to 485 in 2 days.

Get a toon, rush lots of heroics, loot 463, transform JP in Honor points and get 476 PVP items (they're good, despite what you may think).
Optional > Get to Isle of thunder and drop your Key to the Palace of lei shen to have lots of coins
Go LFR and coin on everything > 32% drop + coins = Loot everywhere. You'll most likely be almost able to do ToT LFR.
Run ToT LFR.
Do Sha/Galleon and use coins.
Still farm heroics and replace your last blues (if you still have some) with 476 PVP stuff.


There you go.

[celinamuna]

I don't know how you would do that.

I mean, I really can't think of a way you could do that without spending a whole lot of gold, and having another toon with maxed reps to help you. But even then, I don't know how you could go from "fresh 90" to 485 in 2 days.

Farm heroics --> 463, get farm isle get coints, run first wing of lfr --> get to 470, run 2nd wind of lfr with more coints --> 480 --> chain que for all of ToT, you're probably going to get 1 piece out of 3 parts, spend valor on one of the ToT rep vendors --> probably 485 at this point.

[Deja Thoris]

Get a toon, rush lots of heroics, loot 463, transform JP in Honor points and get 476 PVP items (they're good, despite what you may think).
Optional > Get to Isle of thunder and drop your Key to the Palace of lei shen to have lots of coins
Go LFR and coin on everything > 32% drop + coins = Loot everywhere. You'll most likely be almost able to do ToT LFR.
Run ToT LFR.
Do Sha/Galleon and use coins.
Still farm heroics and replace your last blues (if you still have some) with 476 PVP stuff.


There you go.

So adding up all those 476's from pvp and 483's from t14 lfr magically gives you 485?

To get to 485 you'd need to win at least 5/6 peices in lfr or buy 522's.

Farm heroics --> 463, get farm isle get coints, run first wing of lfr --> get to 470, run 2nd wind of lfr with more coints --> 480 --> chain que for all of ToT, you're probably going to get 1 piece out of 3 parts, spend valor on one of the ToT rep vendors --> probably 485 at this point.

Unless you ding on the day before reset and get 2k VP on the two days then valor gear isnt available to you since it costs 1250 VP.

[celinamuna]

Actually, given that heroic should be something only the top 5-10% of serious guilds can clear before the next tier, normal mode should affect "pretty much everyone."

The problem is that normal mode isn't for everyone, it's for that same 5-10% that don't give a shit about it and are only interested in heroic.

Casual, right now, is a guild that is stuck on NORMAL Horridon or Council, at least before these nerfs. Period. That is your "casual" guild. "Casual" is the capability of the bottom 50% of guilds that, with whatever preparation the "average" player has, go forth and tries to kill pixel dragons.

Bear in mind, most guilds never try to raid. The real "casual" player is one who never raids (other than LFR).

That's fine and all but there's already > 15% of guilds who full cleared normal and in heroics.

And more than 50% of the guilds already killed council....

Unless you ding on the day before reset and get 2k VP on the two days then valor gear isnt available to you since it costs 1250 VP.

Arghh, i got too used that i usually ding on sunday (or at least i did for my last 4 lvl 90's) which did give me basically double lock outs in 2 day period.

As an alternative can buy someone from the old reduced priced valor pieces the first week.