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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    What you're not getting here is that the "right order" is, if you are one of the "casual raiders" who will probably not exist in the game after this year:

    * Some cursory bullshit once you ding 90.
    * Whatever the current normal tier is.
    * One or two heroic bosses, if anyone's crazy enough to try.

    You seem to think it should be more like:

    * Some cursory bullshit once you ding 90.
    * The normal tier that the cool kids blew through in 2 weeks, 3 months ago.
    * One or two bosses from the current tier, if you have the ilevel to get in.

    Imagine you are selling subscriptions to WoW. Suppose your income directly relates to the number of subscriptions you sell. Suppose your girlfriend is pregnant and you really like her, or, your mother is dying of cancer and needs money from you. Which version of the above would you prefer?
    Well exept that this can go 2 ways - if someoen is stuck to long on something he can just think - ok so for next few weeks ill be still banging my head agains the same wall bosses - so why waste cash on game card when i can spend it on booze/other games for example and ill be back in few weeks to breeze through it when it will be nerfed to the difficulty that most want .

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    There is no place to go if you are vaguely organised, have some coordination, some gear, some homework and only some skill. Or, another way to look at it is the difficulty levels of previous versions of wow is no longer present.
    Yes, basically, if you are 10 people who are not great at WoW, but have a fun time doing WoW, if you are planning to spend most of your time doing something other than wipe post mortems, you can only play about 1/2 of T14 at this point.

    You log on and want to go do some fun raiding with your drinking/chat pals and in the past, in most tiers, there was plenty of opportunity for that, without feeling like you were a bunch of retards doing stuff that was ancient history.

  3. #463
    I think pretty much everyone is being catered for by the game.
    There a lot more options out there than there was 2-3 expansions ago ... and .. funily enough, much less players too. Coincidence ? who knows. You suggest previous expansions' normal modes were much more accessible ... Wanna look at the numbers of how many killed Yogg Saron ? LK ? AnubArak ? I doubt you're going to win this argument.

    you are really pushing it now ... according to your logic, we also need
    a setting for vaguely organised, have some coordination, some gear, some homework and only some skill.
    a setting for casual, but not drunk people, who have coordination, but not done their homework
    a setting for organised, but drunk people who dont have coordination, but have done their homerwork
    a setting for blind people, using a naga and G15

    And for all these settings, the bosses have to die fairly easily as to not cause any issues.

    @Candiman : the numbers you are citing at are not raiding teams, they are total population, including alts, casuals (whose % of of the playerbase skyrocketed with Pandaland expansion) etc. Countless alt team go in to kill 1-2 bosses. And there are a lot more alts now than before (simple logic), and that skews numbers.
    Assuming everyone has an alt and plays with it, that would mean your 25% is actually 50 %.

    But i am not even of the opinion that 50% of the player base should finish a raid tier in normal mode, but that's just my opinion

  4. #464
    This is where you and I can agree to disagree. I believe normal raids should be tuned for average raiders and that the middle of the bell curve should be finished or close to finishing the current raid teir before the next one is release not stuck halfway through because if they are not tuned tat way then you end up with fewer and fewer people raiding the current teir. If 40,000 guild groups started T14 and then we are now down to 20,000 starting T15 then by T16 it's 10,000 and Blizzard may ask if it's wort making content for only 10,000 raid groups.
    Last edited by Candiman; 2013-04-12 at 12:32 PM.

  5. #465
    They created LFR for groups who couldnt down normal / didnt have the time to / didnt put the effort in. Enjoy that.

    But yes i get your point, agree to disagree, its been like this since wow has been running

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    They created LFR for groups who couldnt down normal / didnt have the time to / didnt put the effort in. Enjoy that.
    They may decide that LFR is the only level of difficulty that's worth providing. If they do, enjoy that.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    This is where you and I can agree to disagree. I believe normal raids should be tuned for average raiders and that the middle of the bell curve should be finished or close to finishing the current raid teir before the next one is release not stuck halfway through because if they are not tuned tat way then you end up with fewer and fewer people raiding the current teir. If 40,000 guild groups started T14 and then we are now down to 20,000 starting T15 then by T16 it's 10,000 and Blizzard may ask if it's wort making content for only 10,000 raid groups.
    The ones who were stuck on garalon when T14 ended were simply bad. (its not an insult)
    Either raided once a month, or didnt ever valor capped, or didnt do LFR.

    I consider my raid to be a little better than average, we barely finish the tiers when the new one opens, raiding 5 hours a week. We do not valor cap everytime, most of us do our LFRs do get gear, half the raid doesnt even know the strategy when we try a new boss.
    Our raid is never full, we have to get 2/3 new guys every lockout and explain the strat to them, most of the time we need tanks, which is the worst role to need.
    We do mistakes, we f*ck up sometimes, but we try to improve our strat and end up killing the boss.

    I don't know what could be more average, stand in the fire everytime, raid 1 time a week, and don't follow the strat ?

    It this helps some people to enjoy ToT a little more, i'm happy for them, I just don't think it was needed at all .
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  8. #468
    Mechagnome Aquarela's Avatar
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    well, good thing blizzard is now catering to the majority of the gamers.
    Thanks to the nerfs we had some progress last night, (we were 6/12, now we are 9/12) less time wiping on the earlier bosses = more time to work on new bosses.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 02:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They may decide that LFR is the only level of difficulty that's worth providing. If they do, enjoy that.
    exactly, I don't understand how people can be so oppossed to others playing the game when in fact, more people raiding = more resources spent developing raids = better raids. I mean, do they know blizzard nearly killed raiding back in cata because developing a game for 5% of the population was a waste of resources? Do they know dragon soul was what it was because of that fact?

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    The ones who were stuck on garalon when T14 ended were simply bad. (its not an insult)
    Either raided once a month, or didnt ever valor capped, or didnt do LFR.

    I consider my raid to be a little better than average, we barely finish the tiers when the new one opens, raiding 5 hours a week. We do not valor cap everytime, most of us do our LFRs do get gear, half the raid doesnt even know the strategy when we try a new boss.
    Our raid is never full, we have to get 2/3 new guys every lockout and explain the strat to them, most of the time we need tanks, which is the worst role to need.
    We do mistakes, we f*ck up sometimes, but we try to improve our strat and end up killing the boss.

    I don't know what could be more average, stand in the fire everytime, raid 1 time a week, and don't follow the strat ?

    It this helps some people to enjoy ToT a little more, i'm happy for them, I just don't think it was needed at all .
    No the people that were stuck on Garalon are bad compared to you. This is waht I have been trying to say, the people stuck on Garalon are the middle of the bell curve, they are the majority. If the majority stop raiding Blizzard will not provide normal raids and will only provide LFR. we should be trying to get more people to raid not less.

    I do also wonder however if part of the problem has been the difficlty curve of raids so far in this xpac. It's not so much been a difficulty curve as a difficulty rollercoaster with easier bosses gated behind much harder ones. ToES gated behind Empress for example when the first fights in ToES are easier.
    Last edited by Candiman; 2013-04-12 at 01:06 PM.

  10. #470
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    Why would anyone complain about these nerfs? They are for normal 10 man and it's only the first few bosses. It will allow a lot of guilds who were blocked to make a bit more progress. They'll still hit walls later on.

    Anyone who has already cleared those encounters is not affected.

    The Tortos nerf was definitely needed - it's not always possible in 10 man to have decent slows on them.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    If the majority stop raiding Blizzard will not provide normal raids and will only provide LFR. we should be trying to get more people to raid not less.
    There is absolutely no proof for this whatsoever. This is just wishful thinking on your part. (and you changed your post...)

    Raiding has always (since launch!) been an activity undertaken (and completed) by a minority of players.
    This has increased over time and with LFR, but there's absolutely no link between player pârticipation and BLizzard's developments. Look at scenarios. you see people participating in them ? no, yet we are getting hc scnearios.

    What has however happened, is that since LFR is out, people are asking for easier normal modes, than you can complete with no homework or effort, as people ask for in this thread.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    There is absolutely no proof for this whatsoever. This is just wishful thinking on your part.
    Raiding has always (since launch!) been an activity undertaken (and completed) by a minority of players.
    This has increased over time and with LFR, but there's absolutely no link between player pârticipation and BLizzard's developments. Look at scenarios. you see people participating in them ? no, yet we are getting hc scnearios.

    What has however happened, is that since LFR is out, people are asking for easier normal modes, than you can complete with no homework or effort, as people ask for in this thread.
    No, there is proof for this. Blizzard have said that the original Naxx was seen by too few people. That is why the raiding model has changed. This is partly why LFR was introduced. So that the resources spent on creating raids are not seen as a waste. Raids take a lot of resources to create. If only 1% of your paying subscribers are using those resources then they will put those resources to better use.

    I would actually like someone in this thread to give me a reason why having less people raid is a good thing.
    Last edited by Candiman; 2013-04-12 at 01:16 PM.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    No, there is proof for this. Blizzard have said that the original Naxx was seen by too few people. That is why the raiding model has changed. This is partly why LFR was introduced. So that the resources spent on creating raids are not seen as a waste. Raids take a lot of resources to create. If only 1% of your paying subscribers are using those resources then they will put those resources to better use.
    EXACTLY my point : if you can't complete normals, you have LFR.
    Participation in normals is not going to affect development, at all, as 1 raid developed = 3 difficulties. People see the content in LFR.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They may decide that LFR is the only level of difficulty that's worth providing. If they do, enjoy that.
    As far as I'm concerned, it is, because it's not like the people you associate with become any more pleasant as you ascend the difficulty ladder.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    I do also wonder however if part of the problem has been the difficlty curve of raids so far in this xpac. It's not so much been a difficulty curve as a difficulty rollercoaster with easier bosses gated behind much harder ones. ToES gated behind Empress for example when the first fights in ToES are easier.
    The "difficulty rollercoaster" is the most valuable thing in raiding (too bad its not apliable on HCs). You cant make people bang a head agains a wall without knowing there is treasure on the other side, not just he loot from this boss but from all other easyer bosses after him. If you killed Emperess in HoF you got served protector loot for minimal effort and felt good. (we killed "Elite" protectors on 2nd pull after killing emperess back then). The greater obstacle you overcome the grater will be the reward. For exaple we worked 5hours on Durumu and after killing him we knew we will get Primordius and animus in the same amount of time or less (finally we killed it in next 3 hours next raidnight, man that felt good to down Durumu)

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    EXACTLY my point : if you can't complete normals, you have LFR.
    Participation in normals is not going to affect development, at all, as 1 raid developed = 3 difficulties. People see the content in LFR.
    Yes but developing the different difficulties still takes resources. You have 10 normal,10 heroic, 25 normal and 25 heroic to balance, who is to say that if people do stop raiding normals Blizzard will not just stop developing them and just have LFR. To say that if you can't complete normals you have LFR is disingenious at best. A lot of raiders want to raid with their guilds and friends not 24 strangers.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    Yes but developing the different difficulties still takes resources. You have 10 normal,10 heroic, 25 normal and 25 heroic to balance, who is to say that if people do stop raiding normals Blizzard will not just stop developing them and just have LFR. To say that if you can't complete normals you have LFR is disingenious at best. A lot of raiders want to raid with their guilds and friends not 24 strangers.
    Once you created the raid, the different difficulties is just numbers. very, very minimal time.

  18. #478
    Mechagnome Aquarela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    The "difficulty rollercoaster" is the most valuable thing in raiding (too bad its not apliable on HCs). You cant make people bang a head agains a wall without knowing there is treasure on the other side, not just he loot from this boss but from all other easyer bosses after him. If you killed Emperess in HoF you got served protector loot for minimal effort and felt good. (we killed "Elite" protectors on 2nd pull after killing emperess back then). The greater obstacle you overcome the grater will be the reward. For exaple we worked 5hours on Durumu and after killing him we knew we will get Primordius and animus in the same amount of time or less (finally we killed it in next 3 hours next raidnight, man that felt good to down Durumu)

    Yeah but on t14 the walls were better placed: on MSV it was elegon, on HOF it was garalon and on ToES it was tsulong...
    A guild stuck on elegon had the previous bosses to farm, could go clear the 1st 2 of HoF, eventually elegon would fall and progress was nice.

    A guild stuck on horridon could go farm t14... for my old guild this wasn't a fun option, because we have been raiding since the 2nd week of the raids being released and we had already killed all the bosses on normal mode, didn't really want to go and farm heroics, so we quickly disbanded... some of them quitted the game, this is a failure on design, a boss like horridon should have been the 4th boss, not the 2nd.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    The "difficulty rollercoaster" is the most valuable thing in raiding (too bad its not apliable on HCs). You cant make people bang a head agains a wall without knowing there is treasure on the other side, not just he loot from this boss but from all other easyer bosses after him. If you killed Emperess in HoF you got served protector loot for minimal effort and felt good. (we killed "Elite" protectors on 2nd pull after killing emperess back then). The greater obstacle you overcome the grater will be the reward. For exaple we worked 5hours on Durumu and after killing him we knew we will get Primordius and animus in the same amount of time or less (finally we killed it in next 3 hours next raidnight, man that felt good to down Durumu)
    No you see the reward for downing Durumu should have been the feeling that you had overcome a challenge with friends and got loot not that you now have 2 easier bosses to kill. You see you say the greater the obstacle the greater the reward but the boss after Durumu should be slightly harder and the one after that should be harder still. The treasure on the other side is the satisfaction of having killed the boss.

  20. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Once you created the raid, the different difficulties is just numbers. very, very minimal time.
    No not really. You have to spend time spamling in tons of data and tuning and factoring all kinds of information. It takes money and more importantly TIME to do that, it may very well not be worth doing if it takes that much time. Of your missing the point entirely though. If 95% of the raiding community is raiding lfr guess who the raids will be developed in mind for?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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