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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    I would actually like someone in this thread to give me a reason why having less people raid is a good thing.
    Anyone?

    /10chars

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The point is that currently theres a huge clump of people not being catered to.

    There is LFR (super easy, no teamwork required)
    Then Normal mode (difficult, lots of teamwork, coordination, tactics, gear, skill and homework)
    Then Heroic mode (really difficult, all of the above + extreme skill and persistence.)

    There is no place to go if you are vaguely organised, have some coordination, some gear, some homework and only some skill. Or, another way to look at it is the difficulty levels of previous versions of wow is no longer present.
    Their is no MEDIUM difficulty. The "busy" nature of normal raids and the fact that avoidable dmg STILL HITS YOU FOR DMG EVEN IF YOU AVOID IT means your just punished no matter what. The best example I can think of is Megara. In fact that one boss is a microcosm of everything wrong with raiding today. The first 4 or 5 heads are way to easy. Then all of a sudden number 6 is a fucking nightmare, the floor turns into an obstacle course, everybody takes dmg and nobody is stacked up and you've got 10 things to pay attention to in addition to your job of healing. It's all to much all at once and their is no sweet spot.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarela View Post
    Yeah but on t14 the walls were better placed: on MSV it was elegon, on HOF it was garalon and on ToES it was tsulong...
    A guild stuck on elegon had the previous bosses to farm, could go clear the 1st 2 of HoF, eventually elegon would fall and progress was nice.

    A guild stuck on horridon could go farm t14... for my old guild this wasn't a fun option, because we have been raiding since the 2nd week of the raids being released and we had already killed all the bosses on normal mode, didn't really want to go and farm heroics, so we quickly disbanded... some of them quitted the game, this is a failure on design, a boss like horridon should have been the 4th boss, not the 2nd.
    If you killed all 16/16 in the time yout should not have much difficulty on Horridon... but guild disbanding over such small thing like not killing boss in 1 week? how much time did you gave him? I assume you dont raid 20+ hours so giving him a healthy 10 hours of progress should be no problem, did you never got stucked on Boss?
    my brain just cant process this... and I dont know what tied you together all that T14 if 1week on Horridon was enough to break you down.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    Yes but developing the different difficulties still takes resources.
    Also, designing the encounters for higher difficulty levels, then awkwardly adapting them to LFR, leads to the most important encounter -- the version in LFR -- not working all that well. This may be the biggest hidden cost of multiple difficulty levels, the design constraints that it introduces.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Also, designing the encounters for higher difficulty levels, then awkwardly adapting them to LFR, leads to the most important encounter -- the version in LFR -- not working all that well. This may be the biggest hidden cost of multiple difficulty levels, the design constraints that it introduces.
    And eventually like i posted the developers are probably going to look at designing from the bottom up which I'm positive these guys don't want. If 95% of the raiding community is running lfr guess who the mechanics willl start to appeal to? That is unless of course they stop making one size fits all raids.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #486
    So now we're pushing for LFR - only difficulty in future patches and expansions, because gamers simply cannot abide the idea that there's a game mode that's currently too difficult for them to complete?

    Tremendous.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  7. #487
    I think it was a necessary change. My guild is by no means good, but we have managed to clear 10/12 N on 2 days a week and that is good for 9th on our server. I take a look at the other guilds below us (raiding 3 times a week), it just drops off drastically. 10th place is 1 kill behind us, but 11th is only 6/12 and then after that it is a chunk at 3/12. I like the progression right now when it comes to the end of the normal content/heroic modes, but I feel as though the starting bosses of ToT shouldn't be so unforgiving on newer guilds trying to get in.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    So now we're pushing for LFR - only difficulty in future patches and expansions, because gamers simply cannot abide the idea that there's a game mode that's currently too difficult for them to complete?

    Tremendous.
    I don't do normal or heroic raids, so if omitting them enables the devs to focus more on the stuff I want, great!

    Of course the devs will try to optimize for the population of players, not just me, so their solution isn't necessarily my optimal one. Still, if normal/heroic raid participation continues to decline, eventually they may come around.

    At which point I will smile.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 02:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by goinglohan View Post
    I think it was a necessary change. My guild is by no means good, but we have managed to clear 10/12 N on 2 days a week and that is good for 9th on our server. I take a look at the other guilds below us (raiding 3 times a week), it just drops off drastically. 10th place is 1 kill behind us, but 11th is only 6/12 and then after that it is a chunk at 3/12. I like the progression right now when it comes to the end of the normal content/heroic modes, but I feel as though the starting bosses of ToT shouldn't be so unforgiving on newer guilds trying to get in.
    My server is ranked 96th in the US (out of 246). Your guild would be the #4 ranked guild if it moved here.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Their is no MEDIUM difficulty. The "busy" nature of normal raids and the fact that avoidable dmg STILL HITS YOU FOR DMG EVEN IF YOU AVOID IT means your just punished no matter what. The best example I can think of is Megara. In fact that one boss is a microcosm of everything wrong with raiding today. The first 4 or 5 heads are way to easy. Then all of a sudden number 6 is a fucking nightmare, the floor turns into an obstacle course, everybody takes dmg and nobody is stacked up and you've got 10 things to pay attention to in addition to your job of healing. It's all to much all at once and their is no sweet spot.
    MEDIUM died with Cata, it was called 10man.
    Unavoidable DMG in Raids is something that annoy almos everyone in Raiding involved. Looking back on our superior TBC Raiding there was actually almost no unavoidable dmg in the raid (except for 1st tick that got all your addons and RL screaming GTFO). I was healing whole TBC and I remember very few bosses with unavoidable constant AoE to whole raid (Tidehunter, Lootreaver, Mother Sharaz, 3rd Head in reliquary)

    Maegera depends on which heads do you kill. we kill only Blue and red but still the difficulty after 5 is quite a jump to heal through.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Their is no MEDIUM difficulty. The "busy" nature of normal raids and the fact that avoidable dmg STILL HITS YOU FOR DMG EVEN IF YOU AVOID IT means your just punished no matter what. The best example I can think of is Megara. In fact that one boss is a microcosm of everything wrong with raiding today. The first 4 or 5 heads are way to easy. Then all of a sudden number 6 is a fucking nightmare, the floor turns into an obstacle course, everybody takes dmg and nobody is stacked up and you've got 10 things to pay attention to in addition to your job of healing. It's all to much all at once and their is no sweet spot.
    Ironically enough I find Maegera is a good example of a boss. There are multiple ways of killing the heads to either A)Minimize the damage and create a fight that is more about the control of the mechanics or B) Having a fight that requires high dps, high hps and coordination of raid cds to have an easier time with mechanics. You actually have a CHOICE to cater to fight the boss on your raids terms.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    Maybe they were ... not playing?

    Let's suppose your friends are playing Tiger Woods 20 12 hours a week and they love it and you decide to play with them. So you buy Tiger Woods 20. It turns out, you have to go play Tiger Woods 19 with a bunch of other people for a month first. Is Tiger Woods 20 awesome?

    Basically, there is NO good reason that when a new tier comes out that people should have to progress through the previous tier. Here are the two most common situations:

    * Someone brand new to the game starts mid expansion. "Sorry, you have to play the game from a few months ago first before you can play with the cool kids."

    * Someone who was TRYING to work through the previous tier but for whatever reason failed. "Sorry, you have to keep failing before you can play with the cool kids."

    Neither of these will create or keep satisfied customers.[COLOR="red"]

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 11:14 PM ----------
    just to point out that if you are going to quote me and tell me i'm wrong maybe you should read my whole post before you pick one line out of context. I wrote a paragraph about the people who started raiding late and if your too lazy to read a whole post you really shouldn't be trying to criticize with bad analogies

    edit: this is a reply to page 21

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by goinglohan View Post
    Ironically enough I find Maegera is a good example of a boss. There are multiple ways of killing the heads to either A)Minimize the damage and create a fight that is more about the control of the mechanics or B) Having a fight that requires high dps, high hps and coordination of raid cds to have an easier time with mechanics. You actually have a CHOICE to cater to fight the boss on your raids terms.
    Megara is better than tortos pre nerf but by the 5th or 6th head it's back to being tortos all over again. It becomes massive amounts of dmg that even if you avoid the mechanic you still take and avoiding the mechanic means I'm not healing people on the run as a holy paladin. It's just to god damned busy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 02:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    MEDIUM died with Cata, it was called 10man.
    Unavoidable DMG in Raids is something that annoy almos everyone in Raiding involved. Looking back on our superior TBC Raiding there was actually almost no unavoidable dmg in the raid (except for 1st tick that got all your addons and RL screaming GTFO). I was healing whole TBC and I remember very few bosses with unavoidable constant AoE to whole raid (Tidehunter, Lootreaver, Mother Sharaz, 3rd Head in reliquary)

    Maegera depends on which heads do you kill. we kill only Blue and red but still the difficulty after 5 is quite a jump to heal through.
    And it would be alright IF I COULD STOP AND HARD CAST. I'm constantly being asked to run around to avoid X Y and Z and have next to no time to hard cast. It's so frustrating.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Megara is better than tortos pre nerf but by the 5th or 6th head it's back to being tortos all over again. It becomes massive amounts of dmg that even if you avoid the mechanic you still take and avoiding the mechanic means I'm not healing people on the run as a holy paladin. It's just to god damned busy.
    Hpals have some decent heals on the move with Shock/WoG(or eternal flame)/Holy Prism. Seems like you are killing the blue head, ever try without killing the blue? With good cinder placements you will have all the room in the world.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    Anyone?

    /10chars
    Because they are selfish arses who think their needs are the only ones that matter. Furthermore, anyone else behind them in progress is a lolnoob and anyone ahead of them is clearly a basement dwelling loser according to their view of the world.

    Theres no bad side to these nerfs. Just people like Eifel regurgitating his stuff 6 times a page are keeping this thread running. I've stopped responding to him, cherry picking quotes and conveniently forgetting anything past the last sentence you wrote isn't conducive to a meaningful discussion.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    If you killed all 16/16 in the time yout should not have much difficulty on Horridon... but guild disbanding over such small thing like not killing boss in 1 week? how much time did you gave him? I assume you dont raid 20+ hours so giving him a healthy 10 hours of progress should be no problem, did you never got stucked on Boss?
    my brain just cant process this... and I dont know what tied you together all that T14 if 1week on Horridon was enough to break you down.
    Well, My guild was 16/16 Normal, though we only got to ToEs about 3 weeks before the patch (and cleared all the bosses there in under 7 pulls each). If they didn't nerf Horridon down, I don't believe we would have ever killed it (we had 77 attempts before our first kill). We were 498 geared (average) and that fight was just too much pre-nerf. We were already burnt out of MSV-HOF at this point and the thought of "go back and clear it more or go back and do it on heroic" had us on the edge of quitting.

    In our case, we got lucky, we picked up some good tanks and we're now 6/12, so life is a little better. With that said, we're part of the upper 34% of raiding guilds (using WowProgress has the source) and I don't think we're good enough to honestly be in that group. I don't know what others look for, but what I liked about ICC raiding (normal) was that it was normally doable by even mediocre guilds and it made for fun times. Now, raiding feels like a job. I know some people love that, but it seems the lare wow community doesn't.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-12 at 02:55 PM.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And it would be alright IF I COULD STOP AND HARD CAST. I'm constantly being asked to run around to avoid X Y and Z and have next to no time to hard cast. It's so frustrating.
    As paladin - There are some small bits of time where you can stop and hardcast for a sec, things that helps on move are Holy prism for10, Hammer for 25, instants for good healing. Holy shock casted after hardcasted Radiance have AoE healing (boosted by 2Piece Tbonus), crusader strike something to get bonus Holypower and LoD(and other LoD when Divine purpouse proc). Paladin have prety good arsenal to cast on the move...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    In our case, we got lucky, we picked up some good tanks and we're now 6/12, so life is a little better. With that said, we're part of the upper 34% of raiding guilds (using WowProgress has the source) and I don't think we're good enough to honestly be in that group. I don't know what others look for, but what I liked about ICC raiding (normal) was that it was normally doable by even mediocre guilds and it made for fun times. Now, raiding feels like a job. I know some people love that, but it seems the lare wow community doesn't.
    If you believe you dont belong there you clearly raid better than you thought, and thats good. many more people raid worse than they like and complain about it. We are at 10/12 norm atm (top 20% from wowprogress) and my officer team and I are determined to drag our guild to top 10% even if it screams and kicks around.
    Last edited by Dukenukem; 2013-04-12 at 03:02 PM.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No not really. You have to spend time spamling in tons of data and tuning and factoring all kinds of information. It takes money and more importantly TIME to do that, it may very well not be worth doing if it takes that much time. Of your missing the point entirely though. If 95% of the raiding community is raiding lfr guess who the raids will be developed in mind for?
    They basically already told us how they do it, they have multipliers for dmg/health of a fight, for the different versions. It cannot honestly be something they still have to invest a lot of research into. They know how to LOOSELY tune things for each mode/difficulty by now, and then refine things based on player interactions down the road.


    Also, what the hell is the point of this thread currently? It was originally about nerfs... and now... who knows

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    No but that means there will be shitload of people facerolling the boss we killed the "hard(er)" way. And I don't like that at all.

    One of our very casual roster have a very hectic raid schedule and they just managed to down horridon, now they'll be 5/12 like us in now time, I don't think thats fair thats all :/.

    Same for the other guilds who were behind, now the loots is basically free till durumu.
    Its time to grow up if you still have this "special snowflake" mentality, really.
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  19. #499
    If you have to run around that much as a healer, your raid team is doing it wrong. Adjust your group strategy or adjust your individual play (not just you, but the other people in the raid as well). DPS can help by staying the heck away from the healers, not dragging ice beams or fire pools or acid bombs on top of them. That way the healers only have to move for the ones that are targeted at them specifically. Change your head kill order so you deal more often with the mechanics you handle well, and less often with the mechanics you handle poorly. Analyze your logs and figure out what's killing you and fix it.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    Well, if they wanted to Breeze trough normal they would tune it that way. They are opening LFR in a pace what they think Normal guild is progressing. We got 4/16 HC in T14 and we are hardly heroic raiders (12 Hours/Week cant do much) we are currently 10/12 and aiming to 12/12 this reset to perfectly match the LFR opening. Are we what is blizzard considering Normal guild or profesionals ahead the curve?
    I was talking to someone. I am not saying that Normal raiders should breeze through the content, i am saying that HEROIC raiders should breeze though normal content, and NORMAL raiders should be able to finish the content in the duration of that tier, which is not happening in MoP.

    Only 25% of the ones that started T14 finish it, and most of them are heroic raiders.

    I cant understand how people can be so blind when facts and numbers are hitting them in the head.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 12:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Yeah thats what i said.. If you can't complete T14 while T14 is current, (yes you suck but) they are getting nerfed in T15 so you can THEN, during T15, still kill them and gear up to be in the place Blizzard wants you to be for T15.

    What you are saying is 'We couldn't beat T14 while it was current, and we can't beat T15 while its current, but we are definitly not going to do T14 while T15 is current.

    suit yourself lol !
    75% of raiding guilds suck?

    I think your "suck" definition is too high. 75% of guilds dont suck, the problem is that normal content is tuned for heroic level guilds (which are most of the 25% that COULD finish normals).

    What i am saying is that Normals should be tuned so that NORMAL raiders complete them in the same tier that is launch, not so that the only ones that complete it are heroic raiders.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 12:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    no i got that. Iam saying 'go back there now, its been nerfed' to which hes saying 'i dont wanna its not current (but current raids are killing me)'
    I havent said that, you are confusing me with someone else. I am the one saying: yes, people are doing that, and emrpess guild kills climbed from 13k to 18k in the last month, but i DONT AGREE with a system that tunes Normal modes to heroic raiders and then tell normal raiders that they should complete the content made for them a tier later.

    Heroic raiders have heroic raids, normal raiders should be able to complete the normal raids in the same tier they are current. This is not happening.

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