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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Heroic raiders have heroic raids, normal raiders should be able to complete the normal raids in the same tier they are current. This is not happening.
    I think completing normal within the patch duration before the next tier, We have ToT for 1month and 1week and that doesnt mean you should be farming it by now.

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    As paladin - There are some small bits of time where you can stop and hardcast for a sec, things that helps on move are Holy prism for10, Hammer for 25, instants for good healing. Holy shock casted after hardcasted Radiance have AoE healing (boosted by 2Piece Tbonus), crusader strike something to get bonus Holypower and LoD(and other LoD when Divine purpouse proc). Paladin have prety good arsenal to cast on the move...
    Holy prism assumes that not only are you in range of the boss their are enough players around that actually need the healing that are also in range of the boss. Meg is a bit better for that but it's not always the case. I holy shock on cooldown but not every body is stacked up, it's 9 players taking raid dmg that are more or less spread out. LoD also assumes enough players are stacked up to be worth healing and also assumes I have the HoPo right then and there. If I do i usually save it for WoG. They usually aren't stacked as they are also often running to avoid stuff. Paladins have a shit arsenal to cast on the move. Especially relative to what everybody else has. Like our shaman can literally hard cast anything on move. Or rdruid can spam hots all over the place.

    Our mobility heals (not including cooldowns like LoH) are basically holy shock, WoG 0r LoD (assuming enough folks are stacked and yyou have the hopo) and that's it really. Unless your going to count on having procs right then and there it's not reliable and unless your going to glyph selfless healer (and again match up your judgement casts with your need to constantly run around obstacle courses) then your screwed. Especially compared to your Rdruid and Rshaman buddies. God I would kill for spiritwalkers grace and ancestral swiftness.

    It boils down to this. If I move to avoid dmg (and everybody in my raid does this) they should not take dmg when they move to avoid it. If they do take dmg (regardless of moving to avoid damage) then I as a healer am automatically at a deficit both in terms of just raw healing catch up but also in terms of opportunity cost. All of that of course assumes I make the perfect decision about when to cast and what to cast where. It assumes best play from normal or average, it assumes snap decision making and assumes that players will not have issues dividing their focus 4 or 5 ways. It assumes I always make the right decision about where to run and how to get around shit on the ground and am not out of range having to avoid blue beams of ice or fire on the ground.None of which should be an assumption made on the part of the developers.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-12 at 03:44 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    I think completing normal within the patch duration before the next tier, We have ToT for 1month and 1week and that doesnt mean you should be farming it by now.
    I think it's fair that guilds should be able to killed the 2nd boss by now though. If you look at wowprogress for 10man 8000 more guilds have killed jin'rokh than horridon.
    nerfing the first couple bosses isn't going to magically make every guild clear the entire instance.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    If you believe you dont belong there you clearly raid better than you thought, and thats good. many more people raid worse than they like and complain about it. We are at 10/12 norm atm (top 20% from wowprogress) and my officer team and I are determined to drag our guild to top 10% even if it screams and kicks around.
    Well, I'm not sure we raid better. We raid 12-14 hours a week and average about 75 pulls a boss before a kill. While we get a gold star for determination, we also bleed through people because, no one wants to spend all week wiping on a boss hoping to get the stars to align perfectly to get a kill and then when it happens, no on wants to do it again the following week. 2 months after our first Garalon kill, it was not uncommon for us to still wipe 8-10 times on him, though some days, we would get a 1 shot.

    When we looked across the aisle at other guilds, they were raiding 6-8 hours a week and enjoyed better progression. Right, wrong or indifferent, I think the community has a whole is moving away from being committed to wiping 50-75 times on a boss and having a sense of accomplishment when they finally get him. There is a point where I stepped back and asked myself "What was the point of all that ?" It doesn't increase my pay, didn't lower my mortgage, I'm not in better health as a result and it stopped being fun months ago. Obviously if you're making steady progression or you at least feel that progression is possible with the group you have, then it's easier to keep pushing forward.

    On the flip side and not to take anything away from your guild. But if you see that there is 20-30% less guilds raiding, does making the top 10% feel all that special ? If we were back to ICC level of raiding, I think our guild would be back around the 50% mark, which is where we probably belong and I think that's when we had the most fun as well.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    The ones who were stuck on garalon when T14 ended were simply bad. (its not an insult)
    Either raided once a month, or didnt ever valor capped, or didnt do LFR.

    I consider my raid to be a little better than average, we barely finish the tiers when the new one opens, raiding 5 hours a week. We do not valor cap everytime, most of us do our LFRs do get gear, half the raid doesnt even know the strategy when we try a new boss.
    Our raid is never full, we have to get 2/3 new guys every lockout and explain the strat to them, most of the time we need tanks, which is the worst role to need.
    We do mistakes, we f*ck up sometimes, but we try to improve our strat and end up killing the boss.

    I don't know what could be more average, stand in the fire everytime, raid 1 time a week, and don't follow the strat ?

    It this helps some people to enjoy ToT a little more, i'm happy for them, I just don't think it was needed at all .


    The first red and green zone, first purple zone, and most of the guilds in the second purple zones guilds couldnt complete T14 after 5 months and with item upgrades.

    And we are asumming 100% of the pupulation is those GUILDS GROUPS (at least 8 players from the same guild in 10 man, over 20 in 25 man) that killed at elast 1 boss in normal modes.

    BTW, all the guilds in the second red zone and most of the guilds on the second green zone are HEROIC GUILDS.

    I hope you get it now how many guilds failed to do so. Now, we may think, over 75% of normal raiders suck and therefore fail to complete a content that SHOULD BE TUNED FOR THEM, or, the content was overtuned for the target audience.

  6. #506
    So how do you define 'normal' raiders ? the average ?

    What if the average player plays 2-4 hours per week ? They should then develop the game so that the normal tier takes 2-4 hours per week to clear, and its possible to do that in the first month?
    And after 2 months your team is totally decked out in BiS normals and decides to go HC... Do we need to nerf those for you as well if you can't beat them? Or are you happy clearing everything on normal in 2-4 hours every single week for 6-9 months ? Would you really be happy then, or starved of content ?

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    So how do you define 'normal' raiders ? the average ?

    What if the average player plays 2-4 hours per week ? They should then develop the game so that the normal tier takes 2-4 hours per week to clear, and its possible to do that in the first month?
    And after 2 months your team is totally decked out in BiS normals and decides to go HC... Do we need to nerf those for you as well if you can't beat them? Or are you happy clearing everything on normal in 2-4 hours every single week for 6-9 months ? Would you really be happy then, or starved of content ?
    Yes, the average, and if the average raids 4 horus a wekk, NORMAL content should be tuned for them to be able to clear it in the 5 months it takes (or 6, or 4, or whichever amount of time the particular tier requires). Those that play more will kill NOrmal content faster and bang their heads agaisnt heroics.

    Heroics should be tuned for Heroic raiders, Heroic raiders are not the average, so no, they shouldnt nerf HC if the average people cant beat them.

    But NORMAL being tuned for 25% of the raiders is BAD.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 12:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    I think completing normal within the patch duration before the next tier, We have ToT for 1month and 1week and that doesnt mean you should be farming it by now.
    Yes, but the nerfs of ToT are because Blzizard saw what happened in T14 and they knew that at this pace even less people would have completed Normal ToT within the patch duration.

    And i tell you this, Normal ToT needs a lot more nerfing to be tuned for normal players.

    What happened in T14 was a DISASTER, the raid tuning was HORRIBLE and it had a huge negative impact on normal raiders.

    I think Blizzard is beggining to understand this.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Well, I'm not sure we raid better. We raid 12-14 hours a week and average about 75 pulls a boss before a kill. While we get a gold star for determination, we also bleed through people because, no one wants to spend all week wiping on a boss hoping to get the stars to align perfectly to get a kill and then when it happens, no on wants to do it again the following week. 2 months after our first Garalon kill, it was not uncommon for us to still wipe 8-10 times on him, though some days, we would get a 1 shot.

    When we looked across the aisle at other guilds, they were raiding 6-8 hours a week and enjoyed better progression. Right, wrong or indifferent, I think the community has a whole is moving away from being committed to wiping 50-75 times on a boss and having a sense of accomplishment when they finally get him. There is a point where I stepped back and asked myself "What was the point of all that ?" It doesn't increase my pay, didn't lower my mortgage, I'm not in better health as a result and it stopped being fun months ago. Obviously if you're making steady progression or you at least feel that progression is possible with the group you have, then it's easier to keep pushing forward.

    On the flip side and not to take anything away from your guild. But if you see that there is 20-30% less guilds raiding, does making the top 10% feel all that special ? If we were back to ICC level of raiding, I think our guild would be back around the 50% mark, which is where we probably belong and I think that's when we had the most fun as well.
    Seems like only a bit lower than our guild, we never truly farm the content, we wipe a bunch on already progressed bosses here and there (namely Jikun this tier and Tsulong/Windlord/Sha in T14). the determination is the key, if you bleed through people you will eventually end up with solid dedicated team and you will progress faster from that point than ever before. I consider 20-50 wipes a good number on stronger bosses. we did 107 wipes on Feng Normal before killing him in MV 3rd week into MV.

    About special feeling from TOP 10%, thats entirely our thing, we promised our raiders that under our control we will get to the Top 10%, we say that to all our new recruits. So in the simplest we just try to keep our word as Leaders the feeling of superiority is added bonus

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post

    Yes, but the nerfs of ToT are because Blzizard saw what happened in T14 and they knew that at this pace even less people would have completed Normal ToT within the patch duration.

    And i tell you this, Normal ToT needs a lot more nerfing to be tuned for normal players.

    What happened in T14 was a DISASTER, the raid tuning was HORRIBLE and it had a huge negative impact on normal raiders.

    I think Blizzard is beggining to understand this.
    If you read the Ghostcralwer twitter he says:

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 22h

    @thebiggameover We gather a tremendous amount of data on raid progression. Some encounters were tougher than intended or compared to 5.0.
    Well guess what will happen now? They'll start to get data on meg and jikuun and durumu and guess what will happen? This top down approach to raid tuning is foolish and in general the one size fits all philosophy of raiding is stupid.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #510
    But you have had this tier for 1 month only and complaining its too hard. Why not wait 5 months as you suggest, and see where you are at then ? Its not because you can't kill horrdidon right now that you can't later ... At a rate of 1,5 bosses per month, you'd kill Lei Shen spot on before the next patch. Plenty of people in this thread say they killed horridon and the next ones with ilvls of arounf 495-498 ....

    I seriously doubt you'd be happy clearing normals each week in 4 hours... for 6 months! You will get bored and come here post about lack of content, as has been done every single time there was a gradual nerf of raid bosses (ICC was too long, firelands too long, DS too long...) << In this model, one raid fits all.

    So they introduced this model where you have more content to do, better tailored to your skills. << in this model, several raids for several levels of loot.
    But no, you are still butthurt because you can't get in the latest raid .... Theres a word for that, it's called being spoilt.

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    So they introduced this model where you have more content to do, better tailored to your skills. << in this model, several raids for several levels of loot.
    But no, you are still butthurt because you can't get in the latest raid .... Theres a word for that, it's called being spoilt.

    They haven't introduced that model. Normal is currently not tailored to the average raiders skill level and neither is LFR. That's the whole god damned point. THEIR IS NO MEDIUM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    So how do you define 'normal' raiders ? the average ?

    What if the average player plays 2-4 hours per week ? They should then develop the game so that the normal tier takes 2-4 hours per week to clear, and its possible to do that in the first month?
    Wwell, how do you define normal ? If 70% of the raiding population couldn't complete T14. Doesn't that strongly imply that T14 was above normal difficulty ? Wouldn't by definition to be an "average" raider, you would be in the 50 percentile group ? How much more should T14 have been nerfed ? Enough so that at least 50% of the raiding guilds cleared T14.

    5 weeks in, I think we should be seeing 10-15% more guilds hitting the 12/12 mark and yes, I think 2 months in, at least 40% of raiding guilds should be near normal mode BiS and eyeing Heroics, 3 months in, we should be seeing around 60% of the guilds at least 12/12 normal.

    Or Blizzard can continue to try and make the game harder and I predict we'll see raiding continue to decline and I think we're going to start seeing some massive bleeding of subs again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    if you bleed through people you will eventually end up with solid dedicated team and you will progress faster from that point than ever before.
    Hmm, not so much in our case. Our server is dying, we're down to 30 guilds that have at least 1 ToT kill and I think a couple of those have quit raiding since then. Half the people we've bleed through were the good raiders. In our case, another guild had to die for us to live. Which is the cycle of life I guess. At some point, I fear we won't have anything left for the cycle. Time for a transfer!
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-12 at 04:05 PM.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post

    But NORMAL being tuned for 25% of the raiders is BAD.
    25% of players, not raiders. You have alts etc in that sample. Multiply that by 2 maybe, as most raiders have 2 or even 3 alts.

    And i tell you this, Normal ToT needs a lot more nerfing to be tuned for normal players.
    Ermagehhhrd lol where do tyhis stop we are already at 30% hp nerf lol, you can't be that bad ....

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 04:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    They haven't introduced that model. Normal is currently not tailored to the average raiders skill level and neither is LFR. That's the whole god damned point. THEIR IS NO MEDIUM.
    dude i stopped listening to your "God damn points" when you said you raided since forever, but pallies couldn't heal on the move on megaera lol.
    Medium ? there is medium, normals are super easy. maybe not as easy so that every single player in the game can beat every single encounter after 1 month, but still, you can clear ToT normal in one week with ilvl 495-498 ..

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Holy prism assumes that not only are you in range of the boss their are enough players around that actually need the healing that are also in range of the boss. Meg is a bit better for that but it's not always the case. I holy shock on cooldown but not every body is stacked up, it's 9 players taking raid dmg that are more or less spread out. LoD also assumes enough players are stacked up to be worth healing and also assumes I have the HoPo right then and there. If I do i usually save it for WoG. They usually aren't stacked as they are also often running to avoid stuff. Paladins have a shit arsenal to cast on the move. Especially relative to what everybody else has. Like our shaman can literally hard cast anything on move. Or rdruid can spam hots all over the place.

    Our mobility heals (not including cooldowns like LoH) are basically holy shock, WoG 0r LoD (assuming enough folks are stacked and yyou have the hopo) and that's it really. Unless your going to count on having procs right then and there it's not reliable and unless your going to glyph selfless healer (and again match up your judgement casts with your need to constantly run around obstacle courses) then your screwed. Especially compared to your Rdruid and Rshaman buddies. God I would kill for spiritwalkers grace and ancestral swiftness.

    It boils down to this. If I move to avoid dmg (and everybody in my raid does this) they should not take dmg when they move to avoid it. If they do take dmg (regardless of moving to avoid damage) then I as a healer am automatically at a deficit both in terms of just raw healing catch up but also in terms of opportunity cost. All of that of course assumes I make the perfect decision about when to cast and what to cast where. It assumes best play from normal or average, it assumes snap decision making and assumes that players will not have issues dividing their focus 4 or 5 ways. It assumes I always make the right decision about where to run and how to get around shit on the ground and am not out of range having to avoid blue beams of ice or fire on the ground.None of which should be an assumption made on the part of the developers.
    You do know you can cast holy prism on allies right? Also, touching on your last point. You act as like you are the only healer in your raid. If you have trouble reacting to the blue beams, don't kill the blue head or coordinate with your group on how to place the blue beams better.

  15. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    25% of players, not raiders. You have alts etc in that sample. Multiply that by 2 maybe, as most raiders have 2 or even 3 alts.



    Ermagehhhrd lol where do tyhis stop we are already at 30% hp nerf lol, you can't be that bad ....

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 04:01 PM ----------



    dude i stopped listening to your "God damn points" when you said you raided since forever, but pallies couldn't heal on the move on megaera lol.
    Medium ? there is medium, normals are super easy. maybe not as easy so that every single player in the game can beat every single encounter after 1 month, but still, you can clear ToT normal in one week with ilvl 495-498 ..

    We get it dude, you are super pro and awesome, and content should only be seen by people super pro and awesome like you, not lowly scrubs like us.

    There, there, now you can move on and be happy with your life.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    there is medium, normals are super easy. maybe not as easy so that every single player in the game can beat every single encounter after 1 month, but still, you can clear ToT normal in one week with ilvl 495-498 ..
    Come on man! How can you say Normals are super easy and can be cleared by the average Joe in 1 week in 498 gear ? If that were true, why doesn't WoWProgress show 75% guilds are 12/12 ?

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    you can clear ToT normal in one week with ilvl 495-498 ..
    I highly doubt that, feel free to provide proof.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    But you have had this tier for 1 month only and complaining its too hard. Why not wait 5 months as you suggest, and see where you are at then ? Its not because you can't kill horrdidon right now that you can't later ... At a rate of 1,5 bosses per month, you'd kill Lei Shen spot on before the next patch. Plenty of people in this thread say they killed horridon and the next ones with ilvls of arounf 495-498 ....

    I seriously doubt you'd be happy clearing normals each week in 4 hours... for 6 months! You will get bored and come here post about lack of content, as has been done every single time there was a gradual nerf of raid bosses (ICC was too long, firelands too long, DS too long...) << In this model, one raid fits all.

    So they introduced this model where you have more content to do, better tailored to your skills. << in this model, several raids for several levels of loot.
    But no, you are still butthurt because you can't get in the latest raid .... Theres a word for that, it's called being spoilt.
    Because you dont need to wait the 5 months when the second boss has blocked half the people trying (that already were the most geared fromt he last tier) to do it.

    They already waited 5 months and saw where people ended, that happened in T14, they gathered that data and now are projecting what will happen in T15 based on that.

    At a rate of 1.5 per month you would hit Lei Shen spot on, yes, but half the people trying had 1 boss in 1 months and one week, and there are a lot of people that couldnt even begin trying because they are still stuck in T14 even after the 10% nerf.

    I already explained to you that i am not asking for people to clear the whole tier in one week, i dont know why you insist in such an stupid argument.

    This model is not better tailored for normal raiding and i am not butthurt because i cant get in the latest raid, you have been wronly asuming things the entire thread, having no reading comprehension and just qqing about content you dont even run anymore got nerfed.

    There is a word for you, but if i say it i get an infraction, it has to do with enjoying on other people's failure instead of your own success.

  19. #519
    Because not everyone is geared 498?
    Because most people (in this thread !! ) state they go into ToT with 490 and don't see bosses dying ! Outrageous !

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 04:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by goinglohan View Post
    I highly doubt that, feel free to provide proof.
    A lot of, people in this thread have stated this.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Because not everyone is geared 498?
    Because most people (in this thread !! ) state they go into ToT with 490 and don't see bosses dying ! Outrageous !
    No, because Normal raids in T14 and T15 were tuned based on heroic raiders telling them in the PTR how easy/difficult a fight was.

    So Normal raids are being tuned based on heroic raiders feedback, and therefore they end up being tuned for heroic raiders, not normal.

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