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  1. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Well, I'm not sure we raid better. We raid 12-14 hours a week and average about 75 pulls a boss before a kill. While we get a gold star for determination, we also bleed through people because, no one wants to spend all week wiping on a boss hoping to get the stars to align perfectly to get a kill and then when it happens, no on wants to do it again the following week. 2 months after our first Garalon kill, it was not uncommon for us to still wipe 8-10 times on him, though some days, we would get a 1 shot.

    When we looked across the aisle at other guilds, they were raiding 6-8 hours a week and enjoyed better progression. Right, wrong or indifferent, I think the community has a whole is moving away from being committed to wiping 50-75 times on a boss and having a sense of accomplishment when they finally get him. There is a point where I stepped back and asked myself "What was the point of all that ?" It doesn't increase my pay, didn't lower my mortgage, I'm not in better health as a result and it stopped being fun months ago. Obviously if you're making steady progression or you at least feel that progression is possible with the group you have, then it's easier to keep pushing forward.

    On the flip side and not to take anything away from your guild. But if you see that there is 20-30% less guilds raiding, does making the top 10% feel all that special ? If we were back to ICC level of raiding, I think our guild would be back around the 50% mark, which is where we probably belong and I think that's when we had the most fun as well.
    No guild should be spending 50+ attempts on the first few bosses in normal mode if they are geared appropriately and executing correctly. That is why Blizzard nerfed it. Keep in mind if your ilevel is 496 or higher you outgear the content already so these nerfs might seem shallow to you.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Blizz has stated that they know PTR raiders are better than average, and therefore tuned encounters with that in mind.
    (that being said, i think the MoP PTRs have been totally rushed and needed more testing / feedback)
    Yes, they tune encounetrs with that in mind, but they still only have heroic raiders feedback. They have to imagine how much easier they need to do the content, and they have clearly failed at that.

    They only have feedback from heroic raiders, and that is why we have normals with so many mechanics (more than evern) and so little amount of people clearing.

    Hell, most bosses in TBC had very little amount of mechanics (For example, a boss that dopped tier 5 tokens like void reaver had 3 abilities, and 2 of them were aimed at two different ranges).

    Clearly, they are not tuning normals correctly.

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    dude i stopped listening to your "God damn points" when you said you raided since forever, but pallies couldn't heal on the move on megaera lol.
    Medium ? there is medium, normals are super easy. maybe not as easy so that every single player in the game can beat every single encounter after 1 month, but still, you can clear ToT normal in one week with ilvl 495-498 ..
    I have raided since forever and I never said palies couldn't heal on the move. I said their mobility healing is severly LACKING relative to both what the encounters are asking and what the other healers can do. I obviously heal on the move, it's just not worth a fucking damn compared to what my resto shamans and rdruid friends can do. Their is no medium. None of the evidence bears this out. Normals are not super easy. I would wager my raiding pedigree is like 10x what yours is but that's neither here not there. I've raided at all levels of playin this game through the years and I've never NEVER once questioned my ability to either heal or raid in general right up until now.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Well, we're back to where we where when Horridon was first brought up at the start of T15. We have a 12/16H T14 raider telling us normal modes are easy. We just all need to accept that normal modes are easy! Best thing that could happen to this game is everyone who is not 12/12 should just quit playing! We're obviously wasting our time.
    they're easy if you are doing them in the gear you are supposed to have to do them.
    Of course they are hard if you don't have the gear required, because you refuse to play the progression path game

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Yes, they tune encounetrs with that in mind, but they still only have heroic raiders feedback. They have to imagine how much easier they need to do the content, and they have clearly failed at that.

    They only have feedback from heroic raiders, and that is why we have normals with so many mechanics (more than evern) and so little amount of people clearing.

    Hell, most bosses in TBC had very little amount of mechanics (For example, a boss that dopped tier 5 tokens like void reaver had 3 abilities, and 2 of them were aimed at two different ranges).

    Clearly, they are not tuning normals correctly.
    It's not just that their not tuning normals correctly, it's the entire one size fits all methodolgy to raiding. You can't have the same mechanics in 10 or in 25 or in lfr and in normal and in heroic. If you sit in something in LFR you don't die but you take a massive amount of dmg. If you sit in something in Normal you die and the people who moved out still take dmg. Even if you move out if it YOU STILL TAKE DMG. You shouldn't take damage on normal when you avoid the mechanic. That should be something strictly relegated to hard modes. Well it isn't and it's because heroic raiders on the ptr cheesed those fights by bringing one healer. These fights are just to god damn busy and I spend more time running obstacles courses than I do actually healing.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Yes, they tune encounetrs with that in mind, but they still only have heroic raiders feedback. They have to imagine how much easier they need to do the content, and they have clearly failed at that.

    They only have feedback from heroic raiders, and that is why we have normals with so many mechanics (more than evern) and so little amount of people clearing.

    Hell, most bosses in TBC had very little amount of mechanics (For example, a boss that dopped tier 5 tokens like void reaver had 3 abilities, and 2 of them were aimed at two different ranges).

    Clearly, they are not tuning normals correctly.
    Except most of the mechanics don't apply to many of the raiders in the fight.

    Take a look at something like Heroic Council. The dungeon journal is basically a novel. What do I have to know as a melee? Don't stand in things, pass off a debuff, and switch targets when it's called. Crazy.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Blizz has stated that they know PTR raiders are better than average, and therefore tuned encounters with that in mind.
    (that being said, i think the MoP PTRs have been totally rushed and needed more testing / feedback)
    Tweets from GC answering is PTR provide enough or proper feedback to TUNE raids

    High end - yes. Heroic guilds bring their whole raid and give us lots of numbers and feedback. LFR is pretty easy to test.
    Normal is the most challenging - PTR raiding is just not something in the DNA of many of those guilds (understandably).
    This explains why Heroic raids are properly tuned for heroic raiders while Normal raids seems more tuned for less skilled heroic raiders than normal.

  8. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    But you have had this tier for 1 month only and complaining its too hard. Why not wait 5 months as you suggest, and see where you are at then ? Its not because you can't kill horrdidon right now that you can't later ... At a rate of 1,5 bosses per month, you'd kill Lei Shen spot on before the next patch. Plenty of people in this thread say they killed horridon and the next ones with ilvls of arounf 495-498 ....

    I seriously doubt you'd be happy clearing normals each week in 4 hours... for 6 months! You will get bored and come here post about lack of content, as has been done every single time there was a gradual nerf of raid bosses (ICC was too long, firelands too long, DS too long...) << In this model, one raid fits all.

    So they introduced this model where you have more content to do, better tailored to your skills. << in this model, several raids for several levels of loot.
    But no, you are still butthurt because you can't get in the latest raid .... Theres a word for that, it's called being spoilt.
    Eiffel: Your ilevel is 518. You have a 517 weapon and access to 502/509 gear. You stepped into TOT geared well beyond an average normal mode raider. ToT normal is for raiders who have no access to heroic raid gear so of course you're going to think it's a cheap win now.

  9. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by goinglohan View Post
    You do know you can cast holy prism on allies right? Also, touching on your last point. You act as like you are the only healer in your raid. If you have trouble reacting to the blue beams, don't kill the blue head or coordinate with your group on how to place the blue beams better.
    I forgot one. Sue me. I do use it all the time on single targets but towards the later heads I mostly try and use it just before the head dies to help catch up for rampage. It is a 15 second cooldown and I'll fully admit I could be using it more effectively but I'm usually to busy focused on running the obstacle course.

    We tried all kinds of strats. In fact we were literally writing out RGRGBRG and RGBRGBG. Something to that effect. We tried all kinds of combinations. in fact we ignored the blue head at first by and large but our tanks were getting whacked even abusing cooldowns and the ground was full of fire. We place the blue beams just fine, usually way out in the back but if I do that then I'm not range of healing anybody and then somebody else has to cover. With the amount of raid dmg going out in the 5th or 6th head phase I need to be HEALING not running around chasing beams or running from fire or dodging green shit that is just gonna hit me for dmg anyway. I usually do ask other healers to cover while I'm trying to avoid shit but I'm not a fan of asking others to carry me because the fight isn't a good comp for a holy paladin. I'd much rather sit to be honest.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-12 at 04:34 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #530
    This is a good change. While the group I raid with have cleared up to the beholder dude, it was not smooth. Usually taking us ~ 10 pulls to get each boss down. This is a acceptable amount of tries for myself for only raiding 2 days a week. The game for me is or fun, not a job. I think the bosses are slightly overtuned, but with persistance (and slight gear upgrades/luck with drops) folks can get things down. I don't begrudge the nerfs to help those folks get over the first 6 bosses.
    Have A Nice Day (HVND)

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I forgot one. Sue me. I do use it all the time on single targets but towards the later heads I mostly try and use it just before the head dies to help catch up for rampage. It is a 15 second cooldown and I'll fully admit I could be using it more effectively but I'm usually to busy focused on running the obstacle course.

    We tried all kinds of strats. In fact we were literally writing out RGRGBRG and RGBRGBG. Something to that effect. We tried all kinds of combinations. in fact we ignored the blue head at first by and large but our tanks were getting whacked even abusing cooldowns and the ground was full of fire. We place the blue beams just fine, usually way out in the back but if I do that then I'm not range of healing anybody and then somebody else has to cover. With the amount of raid dmg going out in the 5th or 6th head phase I need to be HEALING not running around chasing beams or running from fire or dodging green shit that is just gonna hit me for dmg anyway. I usually do ask other healers to cover while I'm trying to avoid shit but I'm not a fan of asking others to carry me because the fight isn't a good comp for a holy paladin. I'd much rather sit to be honest.
    I just checked out our logs and our Holy Pally was topping the meters on that fight. We Leave the blue head up the entire time. I am our tank and I have been tanking the blue head during the final phase every time. I was Ilvl 498 when we got our first kill.

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Blizz has stated that they know PTR raiders are better than average, and therefore tuned encounters with that in mind.
    (that being said, i think the MoP PTRs have been totally rushed and needed more testing / feedback)
    Well that I can absolutely agree on. It isn't just from an encounter tuning perspective either. Durumu should have NEVER left lfr like that. The reason they rush it is though is to appeal to to groups of classes. The hardcores in normal and heroic raids who devour content and the single players in lfr who also devour content. The "middle class" of raiding get's crushed and become LFR guy by and large or quite the game.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by goinglohan View Post
    I just checked out our logs and our Holy Pally was topping the meters on that fight. We Leave the blue head up the entire time. I am our tank and I have been tanking the blue head during the final phase every time. I was Ilvl 498 when we got our first kill.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...er/Dhcp/simple

    I raided normals through out cata and through toc and icc in wotlk. I've got most of heroic firelands including the harder bosses. Prior to healing I raided on my mage in vanilla and tbc and through most of wotlk. I KNOW how to heal on a holy paladin and I KNOW how to raid. Meg and Tortos are not good holy paladin fights and the rest of your healers are bad if your holy paladin is topping them or your lying. Either way I don't care.

    You know the worst part about this tier is that it's slowling undermining my confidence in my ability to raid or heal in this game and it's not a fun feeling. It's disgusting and I fully understand why people leave for LFR. I used to think I was good. If I didn't look at the massive amount of people who didn't leave for lfr I would just assume I was below average or bad regardless of my prior raiding experience or actual ability. It's not fun
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-12 at 04:56 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    A lot of, people in this thread have stated this.
    I was unaware that anecdotes were actual proof. Care to post ACTUAL proof?

  15. #535
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Eiffel: Your ilevel is 518. You have a 517 weapon and access to 502/509 gear. You stepped into TOT geared well beyond an average normal mode raider. ToT normal is for raiders who have no access to heroic raid gear so of course you're going to think it's a cheap win now.
    This is not about me if you read the thread a bit.
    The discussion is about whether you can clear ToT in gear that you had from T14 on normal. Not heroic. Of course with my kind of gear, its faceroll, and it was. But that's not the point.

    If you do have all the gear from T14 plus the few new bits of gear from valor, ToT LFR, etc (ie your raid is around 495-498 ilvl), then you can easily beat normal ToT as people have already mentionned in this thread.

    The point is, people in this thread who have not maximised their T14 NORMAL gear expect to go in ToT and have bosses fall over.
    I think that's totally normal (that they don't) when others think they should be able to enter the latest tier and have everything die in a timely manner.
    Last edited by mmoc8ee790e781; 2013-04-12 at 04:50 PM.

  16. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    This is not about me if you read the thread a bit.
    The discussion is about whether you can clear ToT in gear that you had from T14 on normal. Not heroic. Of course with my kind of gear, its faceroll, and it was. But that's not the point.

    If you do have all the gear from T14 plus the few new bits of gear from valor, ToT LFR, etc (ie your raid is around 495-498 ilvl), then you can easily beat normal ToT.

    The point is, people in this thread who have not maximised their T14 NORMAL gear expect to go in ToT and have bosses fall over.
    I think that's totally normal (that they don't) when others think they should be able to enter the latest tier and have everything die in a timely manner.

    No, you can't.
    Sure, you can brute force it, get lucky and get a messy kill, then spent most of the next week wiping to that boss until the stars align again.
    Your experience isn't reflected on the majority of the population, easy for you is not easy for the majority of people trying to raid. Do you understand that?

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    No guild should be spending 50+ attempts on the first few bosses in normal mode if they are geared appropriately and executing correctly. That is why Blizzard nerfed it. Keep in mind if your ilevel is 496 or higher you outgear the content already so these nerfs might seem shallow to you.
    I was referring to when T14 was released. We were obviously not 496 at the time. We had a total of 170+ wipes on normal dogs the first 3 weeks. And of course you are correct, "executing" correctly is always the key. But that pretty much is the the challenge now isn't it. part of the reason I've always said our guild shouldn't be in the top 30% is because we've pretty much always needed to overgear the content. If it wasn't for LFR, I'm not sure we would have cleared vaults.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    If you do have all the gear from T14 plus the few new bits of gear from valor, ToT LFR, etc (ie your raid is around 495-498 ilvl), then you can easily beat normal ToT as people have already mentionned in this thread.

    The point is, people in this thread who have not maximised their T14 NORMAL gear expect to go in ToT and have bosses fall over.
    I think that's totally normal (that they don't) when others think they should be able to enter the latest tier and have everything die in a timely manner.
    I just don't know if I can totally agree with this. If the first 2-3 bosses were like Jin'Rokh I would agree. But pre-nerf Horridon was just not something a average 495-498 guild could do "easily". Sure there were a couple of guilds that did it (I'm just not sure they are average and it was easy), but the overwhelming majority couldn't and many couldn't by a lot. Post Nerf it was doable, but by then most we had were pushing 500. And now we're sitting at 509 average and starting work on Durm.

    I still think too many heroic raiders don't really get the skill level difference between Normal raiders and heroic raiders. The same way I go into LFR and don't get how people can be that terrible if they are really trying. I want heroic raids to be however hard you guys want them to be, and I want normal raids to be aimed at the majority of the non-heroic raiders. I don't think current normal ToT is aimed at average skilled players.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-12 at 05:14 PM.

  18. #538
    If they were this fast to nerf the first couple bosses im worried about the bosses after. I think council was overtuned at release but the health nerf was enough, horridon and tortos did not need to be nerfed.

  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    This is not about me if you read the thread a bit.
    The discussion is about whether you can clear ToT in gear that you had from T14 on normal. Not heroic. Of course with my kind of gear, its faceroll, and it was. But that's not the point.

    If you do have all the gear from T14 plus the few new bits of gear from valor, ToT LFR, etc (ie your raid is around 495-498 ilvl), then you can easily beat normal ToT as people have already mentionned in this thread.

    The point is, people in this thread who have not maximised their T14 NORMAL gear expect to go in ToT and have bosses fall over.
    I think that's totally normal (that they don't) when others think they should be able to enter the latest tier and have everything die in a timely manner.
    I highly doubt it's all casual undergeared people posting here when MMO-champion consists of less than 4% of the player base. If they truly are, they are delusional but most people here understand when they are lacking gear and skill.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Everyone wants in here? Excuse me?

    That's the TBC raiding model that failed horribly hard and was tried to be fixed in the very same TBC with the adition of badges, ZA and Magister Terrace.

    The TBC raiding model was CRAP and most people dont want that back. HUndreds of guilds spent two years struck on Karazhan, thats TBC model.

    TBC raiding model was a FAILURE. Even Blizzard knows that,
    This post is absolutely horrendous AND false. TBC raiding model was great, but that's just my opinion... but stating hundreds of guilds were stuck 2 years in Karazhan is absolutely laughable. Why did i even bother responding...

    Anyway, don't state opinions as fact, and don't over exaggerate - or blatantly lie - to get your points across. That's sad.

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