Holy mother 10man nerf

[Hayro1]

1,680,690 / 19 = 88,457.

Just nitpicking, you probably forgot to include the tanks.

You're right, I did it by 17, derp. Sorry even Durumu is averaging 62k and like ~15-20 people die to the first maze.

[Deleted]

Why am I not an average player?? Because I choose not to be bad and set aside time to raid?

yes, exactly.

I havn't even been a mage for a year yet. I was always a hunter until MoP. I watch the videos, learned my class and show up. How am I not average?

Because the vast majority of people don't do that. lol

I go to LFR's hoping to get my four piece and get lucky on things I don't really need. I am not on heroics yet, but we are one boss away. I spent more time wiping on Megara than Durumu because everyone said not to kill the blue head, yet when you kill it and do the stupid mechanic the fight is a joke! I'm on a below average server and I really do believe I am an average player. Is there a reason I am above average? The gear I got was from working my butt off and sharing between 3 other clothies, tier token between 1 druid and 2 dks!

believe it all you like, it doesn't make it so!

[Osmeric]

believe it all you like, it doesn't make it so!

Now now, be gentle. You might knock him from his Happy Fantasy Place and make him confront cold inconvenient truth. That's would be so cruel of you!

[Deleted]

Now now, be gentle. You might knock him from his Happy Fantasy Place and make him confront cold inconvenient truth. That's would be so cruel of you!

lol

Tpo be fair, i'm not advocating that players be "bad" and don't do their homework and so on. I'd not be too thrilled with players who just turned up to my own raids with no prep, flasks, pots etc, for example.

I'm just pointing out that in general, in the real world of wow most players don't do their homework, don't know how to gem and reforge, have poor rotations, can't be arsed etc That's just how it is.

i've zero idea why anyone would deny this obvious set of facts.

[Sesshou]

You're right, I did it by 17, derp. Sorry even Durumu is averaging 62k and like ~15-20 people die to the first maze.

Exactly, ~half the raid dies. Most of those who don't raid normals or heroics (perhaps on a different toon but whatever). Theres your 'average player.' LFR is their level. If you picked the middle man in any of my LFR groups (that didn't have a guild queue together) and had 25 people at that level, LFR wouldn't be a joke at all.

In fact, blizzard seems to think that LFR is possibly actually too hard for the average players or they wouldn't have needed that stacking buff (and all that buff really does is allow the top end of your raid to carry the rest).

[Osmeric]

li've zero idea why anyone would deny this obvious set of facts.

It's denied because if one admits it is true, one admits Blizzard is justified in adapting to it.

[Deleted]

Exactly, ~half the raid dies. Most of those who don't raid normals or heroics (perhaps on a different toon but whatever). Theres your 'average player.' LFR is their level. If you picked the middle man in any of my LFR groups (that didn't have a guild queue together) and had 25 people at that level, LFR wouldn't be a joke at all.

In fact, blizzard seems to think that LFR is possibly actually too hard for the average players or they wouldn't have needed that stacking buff (and all that buff really does is allow the top end of your raid to carry the rest).

So obviously if the gen pop of wow are to raid normal modes, they need to be nerfed.

Simple logic.

---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 09:14 PM ----------

It's denied because if one admits it is true, one admits Blizzard is justified in adapting to it.

Ah yes, of course.

[Sesshou]

So obviously if the gen pop of wow are to raid normal modes, they need to be nerfed.

No. Obviously if LFR is the level for average players and they aren't able to handle something harder, there is no point in nerfing normal mode to that level because LFR and normal would be identical. The obvious conclusion is that normal mode isn't meant for the "average player." It has to be meant for people that are in the top 50% somewhere.

[Deleted]

No. Obviously if LFR is the level for average players and they aren't able to handle something harder, there is no point in nerfing normal mode to that level because LFR and normal would be identical. The obvious conclusion is that normal mode isn't meant for the "average player." It has to be meant for people that are in the top 50% somewhere.

no, the openly stated purpose of normal mode is to let organised groups of players raid in a set group environment.

heroic raids are supposed to be the challenge for the top % of players. Not normals.

[melodramocracy]

So obviously if the gen pop of wow are to raid normal modes, they need to be nerfed.

I dont think raiding has ever ever been designed for the average player. Last I checked, wasn't it a very low % of the playerbase that even attempted raiding at all?

[Sesshou]

no, the openly stated purpose of normal mode is to let organised groups of players raid in a set group environment.

heroic raids are supposed to be the challenge for the top % of players. Not normals.

Yeah, but the average LFR person is not interested in being in an organized group of players (or they would be, but most LFR people don't raid normal/heroic). Those people that meet your description are already above average if you are including the LFR base which you seemed to want to do. So to do it your way, you need to recalculate your "average player" based on those actually interested in organized group content which is going to raise the "average" far higher than what you are claiming it is.

And I never said normal should be challenging for the top %. If LFR is for average, then normal has to be harder than that or there is no point in it existing. That doesn't mean you tune it for the top 25%, but you also can't tune it to what you suggest because your "average" player can't handle anything beyond LFR but normal has to be beyond LFR or there is no point in 3 difficulties.

[Deleted]

I dont think raiding has ever ever been designed for the average player. Last I checked, wasn't it a very low % of the playerbase that even attempted raiding at all?

I'm glad you agree with me.

---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 09:26 PM ----------

Yeah, but the average LFR person is not interested in being in an organized group of players (or they would be, but most LFR people don't raid normal/heroic). Those people that meet your description are already above average if you are including the LFR base which you seemed to want to do.

And I never said normal should be challenging for the top %. If LFR is for average, then normal has to be harder than that or there is no point in it existing. That doesn't mean you tune it for the top 25%, but you also can't tune it to what you suggest because your "average" player can't handle anything beyond LFR but normal has to be beyond LFR or there is no point in 3 difficulties.

There is no point in 3 difficulties if normal is only doable by HC level players, either!

it's undeniable that since mop launched theres been super easy (LFR) hard (normal) and insane (Heroic) - and theres a gap between LFR and organised content. A pointless gap. There is no "beer league" raid, as someone has so wonderfully put it.

[melodramocracy]

I'm glad you agree with me.

Not sure where you got that idea I'm in the "nerf nothing while the tier is relevant, unless an encounter is broken or so difficult that class stacking is required" camp

[Sesshou]

There is no point in 3 difficulties if normal is only doable by HC level players, either!

it's undeniable that since mop launched theres been super easy (LFR) hard (normal) and insane (Heroic) - and theres a gap between LFR and organised content. A pointless gap. There is no "beer league" raid, as someone has so wonderfully put it.

Lots of guilds kill normal mode bosses and never get to a heroic mode boss, so you are just using a hyperbole to blow it out of proportion. Raiding, since its original debut, has been the "hard" pve content where as pve content for the "average player" was (normal mode) dungeons, so yeah your description of normal as 'hard' does make sense, but why is it an issue? I've already explained why LFR is the appropriate difficulty for the "average player." LFR isn't super easy for your average player so that is a load of crap. The only time there is a pointless gap is when you have "average players" who really don't have the skill for more than LFR going into normal.

[Deleted]

Is it true that most people raid LFR? If so, then that's for your average player. Why did they nerf cata heroics? Because your average player couldn't handle them. If we didn't have LFR I would say - go for it- do normals pugable. But what's the point of making normal raids pugable when you have pugable raids known as LFR?

[Shypanda88]

lol

Tpo be fair, i'm not advocating that players be "bad" and don't do their homework and so on. I'd not be too thrilled with players who just turned up to my own raids with no prep, flasks, pots etc, for example.

I'm just pointing out that in general, in the real world of wow most players don't do their homework, don't know how to gem and reforge, have poor rotations, can't be arsed etc That's just how it is.

i've zero idea why anyone would deny this obvious set of facts.

#1 I'm a 'she' not a he.
#2 If doing my research and being smart makes me above average then I guess I'm okay with that. :] I was just wondering what classifies you as above average. Why should we nerf things for the people who don't put any effort into raiding?? It's a simple thing called google. It will take you a long way....-_-

---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 09:00 PM ----------

Normal kills should not be handed over to people who don't try! LFR is for people who don't give a care in the world and look how terrible it is! Nerfing things for people who cry and do NOTHING to fix it is a huge problem. It's just like the stupid mining and herbing they are doing. You are so lazy that you can't put time into grinding like the rest of us? It's the same thing. Giving candy to a child who cries and cries and cries just to shut it up. Blizz I call this bad parenting!

[Osmeric]

Lots of guilds kill normal mode bosses and never get to a heroic mode boss, so you are just using a hyperbole to blow it out of proportion.

Your statement is unresponsive to the argument he made.

Raiding, since its original debut, has been the "hard" pve content where as pve content for the "average player" was (normal mode) dungeons,

This is an "argument from tradition". It's basically an argument from authority, and is anyone undermined by the fact that Blizzard itself has constantly changed things. They don't respect tradition; why should we?

I've already explained why LFR is the appropriate difficulty for the "average player."

And you have failed to rebut the argument that a substantial difficulty hole exists between LFR and normal. Average players who want to do organized raids are out of luck.

[Crashdummy]

Why do you keep saying that? That would be 15-30k from Heroic DS levels. Do you realize how silly that is? it seems like you're the one trying to redefine the word average to try and fit your "argument," which again is silly.

And you just discovered now that the best players in the world do in the end of previous expansions DPS almost as good as the average playes do in the early part of a new expansion?

---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 06:15 PM ----------

But why are 'we' looking for average? Average should be irrelevant to tuning discussions; that should be based solely on potential. I guess I'm confused why normals need to be down-tuned to the lowest common denominator when that's why we got LFR in the first place.

Heroic raids should be tuned for "potential" performance, thats why they are challenging even for the good players, because you must be near your bext potential performance.

NORMALS should be tuned for Normal people. Normal people, by definition (go look at a normal curve) is the AVERAGE people.

Therefore, NORMAL raiding should be tuned for NORMAL people.
NORMAL people are AVERAGE people.
NORMAL raids should be tuned for AVERAGE people.

---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 06:17 PM ----------

The tier isn't over. How long is an acceptable time to clear a tier on normal for an average guild, in your mind?

T14 is over. It was cleared by 25% of people before 5.2 launched. T15 had an SLOWER pace of completion.

[NeverStop]

This is week 6 of a 24 week tier. So you should be 3/12 right now if you want to be on track for Ahead of the Curve: Lei Shen.

According to WoW Progress, 55.98% of all guilds in the world that have killed Normal Jin'rokh have killed Normal Council. If 56% of guilds that kill the first boss can kill the third boss, the tuning of the third boss is "average."

Jin'rokh the Breaker 21397 (100.00%)
Horridon 14321 (67.01%)
Council of Elders 11964 (55.98%)

[Crashdummy]

For example, Jin'rokh has an 87% success rate on LFR, with median 1,680,690 dps total over the fight. Including tanks and excluding heals, average per-person dps is 88k or so

You do realize horridon has a damage multiplier of 40% for a big part of the fight and that we were talking about the average DPS on single target without damage multipliers, right?