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  1. #1061
    LFR Is for people who want to "experience" the content. You still have a chance to gear up.
    Normal is for organized groups who want some sort of challenge and reward
    Heroic is for those who want a substantial challenge and reward.

    If you can't down a boss in ToT on normal with your group. Go back to the last Tier and steam roll it and get some more gear, go do some dailies and get gear, do LFR and get some gear etc. If you continue to wipe, assess who is failing in the group and either encourage them to actually learn how to play and do a modicum of research or replace them.

    I am ok with nerfs if there is actually a need. After more and more reading on these, it just seems like it is pandering to the groups that have members that can't figure out how to not stand in fire or how to dispel or how to use defensive CDs.All of which are basic to any raiding group and it is a disservice to the group. Or to those groups that want to completely skip previous content and do the highest level raid. Then again, they are just going to get to Toros and Magaera and need more nerfs for those fights as well.

  2. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm not talking about time commitment, I'm talking about the psychic commitment to push oneself into harder content. This push is not free; it requires willpower and marshalling of mental resources. It presents a risk to the ego, in the event of failure. This all has a cost over and above the time required.

    And of course there is something Blizzard can do: they can make content that doesn't have such a high psychic cost. There is no law of nature forcing Blizzard to make content that caters to a tiny segment of their customers at the expense of the great majority.
    If you can't marshal the mental resources to overcome simple encounters in a game then I feel really sorry for you in the real world.

    Infracted; Do not make personal attacks against someone. Comment on post, not on the poster. (Sonnillon)
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-04-17 at 05:39 AM.

  3. #1063
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    If you can't marshal the mental resources to overcome simple encounters in a game then I feel really sorry for you in the real world.
    I love it when someone slips into ad hominem mode. It's like they're waving a white flag in a debate.

    But anyway, Ego Depletion is a real phenomenon. Maybe the people who save their mental resources for real life are the ones to be lauded?

    Warning; Stay on topic! If you have something off-topic to discuss with someone, please do so via PMs. (Sonnillon)
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-04-17 at 05:26 AM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  4. #1064
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I love it when someone slips into ad hominem mode. It's like they're waving a white flag in a debate.

    But anyway, Ego Depletion is a real phenomenon. Maybe the people who save their mental resources for real life are the ones to be lauded?
    I do see your point with the ad hominem. However, when someone cannot complete a task, there may be an issue with the task, but might there also be an issue with the person? Our world would be a sad place if all tasks were dumbed down so that most people could complete them. Some responsibility has to lay with the player/user. When someone cannot complete a task, why must they assume the task is too hard. The more constructive attitude is to say, "I must try harder then I have in the past to complete this task (i.e. a Challenge)". There is no sense of pride in the completion of a task if that tasks level was brought down to you, rather than you reaching up to meet it.

    Also if someone has limited willpower/etc (ego depletion), I do applaud them for using it on real life endeavors rather than a game. However, is it right for that person to then say, "Hey, I dont have enough willpower to complete this task as I have deemed it low priority in the overall scheme, you should simplify it for me!"

  5. #1065
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Also if someone has limited willpower/etc (ego depletion), I do applaud them for using it on real life endeavors rather than a game. However, is it right for that person to then say, "Hey, I dont have enough willpower to complete this task as I have deemed it low priority in the overall scheme, you should simplify it for me!"
    It's always proper for a customer to say "design the product to satisfy me sufficiently, or I won't send you money". I mean, how could it be otherwise?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #1066
    double post... sorry
    Last edited by cabyio; 2013-04-17 at 03:56 PM.

  7. #1067
    Mechagnome Xzan's Avatar
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    Hmm, I don't find the current model bad. We also went back and farmed HoF and ToES for a bit before giving ToT a shot (except Jin'Rokh obviously).
    We didn't have T14 on farm when T15 started, so we're just freshly past Megeara and tell you what? We're loving it. There's a whole lot of guilds ahead of us, but we'll get there too sooner or later. Just need some gear upgrades here and there, hone the tactic. It's all fine ;]

    note: All the bosses that got nerfed we managed to do before the actual nerf, so the bottom line for me at least is that the farm bosses are easier... Not complaining really
    Last edited by Xzan; 2013-04-16 at 07:36 PM.

  8. #1068
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm not talking about time commitment, I'm talking about the psychic commitment to push oneself into harder content. This push is not free; it requires willpower and marshalling of mental resources. It presents a risk to the ego, in the event of failure. This all has a cost over and above the time required.

    And of course there is something Blizzard can do: they can make content that doesn't have such a high psychic cost. There is no law of nature forcing Blizzard to make content that caters to a tiny segment of their customers at the expense of the great majority.
    Well it's a game and if it's causing you mental anguish then you shouldn't be playing it in the first place correct? Meth sounds fun but I'm sure it will bring me extreme psychosis so I'm not up for the challenge to overcome it! Any number of games on the market provide a challenge. It's your choice whether you wish to push yourself or play on the easy setting.

  9. #1069
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    One thing you forget is that while it may have the moniker of "normal". It is also raiding. Raiding has always been a pursuit that required a certain amount of commitment and effort. It was never made for the masses (except LFR, which is still fairly new in the total timeline). Raiding was always made for those that had the skill/commitment and desire to complete such content.

    Under your argument if all of a sudden 80% of the wow player-base wanted to raid, should normal raids be dumbed down to the point where tactics are a thing of the past? At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say, "HERE, and no further."
    If that time comes, then maybe that line has to be draw, but one thing is sure, the NORMAL line SHOULD NOT be so close to the heroic one that the last Normal boss is harder than the first Heroic boss.

    Normal and Heroic lines are so close that they actually intersect.

    Both Normal and Heoric raiding are now being tuned for heroic raiders.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 06:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    But this design was under no scrutiny during Burning Crusade.

    It's just the mentality of the community, and if anything I commend Blizzard for at least somewhat sticking to their guns. There's a point where you just give everyone what they want, try to appeal to the masses, and lose sight of your original goal.

    In the end though, it's a business. One partially ran by Activision.

    Yes it was under scrutiny, it was SO under scrutiny that it was changed in the very same TBC, with Zul Aman and Magister Terrace producing T5 quality loot.

    The game reached its peak during Wrath, not TBC.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 06:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    There's actually some people that think dumbing down normals to around LFR level would be bad ?

    Thank god, now i'm a believer.
    No one is asking for that.

  10. #1070
    I think the two worst tiers for me as a leader of a 10 man normal guild have been TotC where we one shot everything on normal the night Anub'arak was released leaving us with the daunting prospect of having to spend the entire tier progressing on heroic mode and the start of tier 11 where it suddenly became apparent we couldn't carry anyone and having to tell some long term guild members that they would have to sit out until they got a bit better or until the raid team as a whole got a bit better so we could make up the difference.

    If I had to choose between the two then I think at the start erring on the side of caution and having the raid a bit too hard is so much better than having something that almost everyone blasts through in a week, as time goes on they can implement small nerfs here and there to allow raid groups that are struggling to catch up and for those of us past these bosses it allows us to blow through them quickly to get to where we are actually progressing (which is a god send in such a long and linear tier).

  11. #1071
    Quote Originally Posted by Capt View Post
    I think the two worst tiers for me as a leader of a 10 man normal guild have been TotC where we one shot everything on normal the night Anub'arak was released leaving us with the daunting prospect of having to spend the entire tier progressing on heroic mode and the start of tier 11 where it suddenly became apparent we couldn't carry anyone and having to tell some long term guild members that they would have to sit out until they got a bit better or until the raid team as a whole got a bit better so we could make up the difference.

    If I had to choose between the two then I think at the start erring on the side of caution and having the raid a bit too hard is so much better than having something that almost everyone blasts through in a week, as time goes on they can implement small nerfs here and there to allow raid groups that are struggling to catch up and for those of us past these bosses it allows us to blow through them quickly to get to where we are actually progressing (which is a god send in such a long and linear tier).
    If you are heroic level raiders, you are SUPPOSED to stomp normals.

    Why do people think heroic level raiders should get two raiding modes for them and none for the average raider?

  12. #1072
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    If that time comes, then maybe that line has to be draw, but one thing is sure, the NORMAL line SHOULD NOT be so close to the heroic one that the last Normal boss is harder than the first Heroic boss.

    Normal and Heroic lines are so close that they actually intersect.

    Both Normal and Heoric raiding are now being tuned for heroic raiders.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 06:12 PM ----------




    Yes it was under scrutiny, it was SO under scrutiny that it was changed in the very same TBC, with Zul Aman and Magister Terrace producing T5 quality loot.

    The game reached its peak during Wrath, not TBC.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 06:13 PM ----------



    No one is asking for that.
    I remember some people in this topic saying Normal should be a little harder than LFR . (and not joking)
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  13. #1073
    Well, the FoS for defeating NORMAL final boss is called "Ahead of the curve:" doesnt that suggest that completing normal when its relevant puts you in the forward spot in front of average raider?
    I think if Blizzard intended it for everyone we would have only HC achivement called similarly and normal called "Average raider, gratz".

  14. #1074
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    Well, the FoS for defeating NORMAL final boss is called "Ahead of the curve:" doesnt that suggest that completing normal when its relevant puts you in the forward spot in front of average raider?
    I think if Blizzard intended it for everyone we would have only HC achivement called similarly and normal called "Average raider, gratz".

    "What Blizzard intends" and "what actually can work" are not necessarily overlapping concepts.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  15. #1075
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    I remember some people in this topic saying Normal should be a little harder than LFR . (and not joking)

    I dont remember any. There werre many of us saying it would be better if its tuned for the average player, in about a half way from LFR to Heroic, and not being just a little lower, so little lower that last Normal bosses are harder than first heroic ones...

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 07:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    Well, the FoS for defeating NORMAL final boss is called "Ahead of the curve:" doesnt that suggest that completing normal when its relevant puts you in the forward spot in front of average raider?
    I think if Blizzard intended it for everyone we would have only HC achivement called similarly and normal called "Average raider, gratz".
    We know Blizzard is not tuning Normal raids for the average raider, i have even said multiple times that both Normal and Heroic modes are right now tuned for heroic raiders.

    We are saying that they SHOULD be tuned for average raiders, not that they ARE tuned for average raiders.

    Its actually the ones that say Normal is easy and is already tuned for average the ones that should look to the achievemnt title...

  16. #1076
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    I dont remember any. There werre many of us saying it would be better if its tuned for the average player, in about a half way from LFR to Heroic, and not being just a little lower, so little lower that last Normal bosses are harder than first heroic ones...

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 07:41 PM ----------



    We know Blizzard is not tuning Normal raids for the average raider, i have even said multiple times that both Normal and Heroic modes are right now tuned for heroic raiders.

    We are saying that they SHOULD be tuned for average raiders, not that they ARE tuned for average raiders.

    Its actually the ones that say Normal is easy and is already tuned for average the ones that should look to the achievemnt title...
    You keep saying, that Lei Shen Normal is harder then Jin'rokh Heroic - have you even tried those bosses? Lei Shen was a joke, when you first sorted your groups and got your tactic right. The only issue with Lei Shen, is the amount of things that goes on I'd say. There's a lot of stuff you need to remember and I dare bet, that most people learned the first phase pretty easy, then had to spend some more wipes learning the second - when to blow CD's, when to move from one conductor to another.

    For my own guild, Jin'rokh proved a lot harder, because of the Thunder Storm. Once we figured out a way to all stay alive, the boss fell over. It took us about 3 hours I think and that's more than the 1½ hour Lei Shen took us.

    But back to your point about Lei Shen Normal being harder than Jin'rokh Heroic; would you be happier, if Jin'rokh Heroic was buffed? I mean, that way you wouldn't be complaining, that Lei Shen was harder.

    I know what your answer will be ofc, just trying to set things in perspective. Cause you basically want the entire instance bar Jin'rokh nerfed. And I really wonder, if your time wouldn't have been better spend, had you asked for help, rather than continue to complain about the tuning. I mean, the fact that you even know about MMO, leads me to believe, that you're actually in a better spot than a lot of other casual raiders. In the sense, that you at least know where to ask for help. And that's what makes me wonder - why not ask for help in stead of just complaining?

  17. #1077
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    You keep saying, that Lei Shen Normal is harder then Jin'rokh Heroic - have you even tried those bosses? Lei Shen was a joke, when you first sorted your groups and got your tactic right. The only issue with Lei Shen, is the amount of things that goes on I'd say. There's a lot of stuff you need to remember and I dare bet, that most people learned the first phase pretty easy, then had to spend some more wipes learning the second - when to blow CD's, when to move from one conductor to another.

    For my own guild, Jin'rokh proved a lot harder, because of the Thunder Storm. Once we figured out a way to all stay alive, the boss fell over. It took us about 3 hours I think and that's more than the 1½ hour Lei Shen took us.

    But back to your point about Lei Shen Normal being harder than Jin'rokh Heroic; would you be happier, if Jin'rokh Heroic was buffed? I mean, that way you wouldn't be complaining, that Lei Shen was harder.

    I know what your answer will be ofc, just trying to set things in perspective. Cause you basically want the entire instance bar Jin'rokh nerfed. And I really wonder, if your time wouldn't have been better spend, had you asked for help, rather than continue to complain about the tuning. I mean, the fact that you even know about MMO, leads me to believe, that you're actually in a better spot than a lot of other casual raiders. In the sense, that you at least know where to ask for help. And that's what makes me wonder - why not ask for help in stead of just complaining?

    Yes i have tried both. Jinrokh just need someone that is good at calling cds.

    Lei Shen needs everyone in the group to stay alert to everything that goes around and know how to react.

    And yes, i want Normal modes nerfed to average players and heroic modes buffed to something more challenging than Heroic Jinrokh, and then you will have two modes, aimed for two different groups of people, instead of two modes aimed for a single group.

    I dont ask for help because i dont need help, but the fact that you tried to bash me already tells me how low on arguments you are.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-04-17 at 02:14 AM.

  18. #1078
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's always proper for a customer to say "design the product to satisfy me sufficiently, or I won't send you money". I mean, how could it be otherwise?
    What about the people who enjoy the system at its current difficulty? Are they not customers as well? Are they not important?

    Also you did not address the issue of overcoming a challenge instead of having the challenge brought down to your level.

  19. #1079
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Yes i have tried both. Jinrokh just need someone that is good at calling cds.

    Lei Shen needs everyone in the group to stay alert to everything that goes around and know how to react.

    And yes, i want Normal modes nerfed to average players and heroic modes buffed to something more challenging than Heroic Jinrokh, and then you will have two modes, aimed for two different groups of people, instead of two modes aimed for a single group.

    I dont ask for help because i dont need help, but the fact that you tried to bash me already tells me how low on arguments you are.
    Okay. So if you have tried both that means your are not the "average raider". Why are you not happy with how things are, they are very suited to you at the moment.

  20. #1080
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Okay. So if you have tried both that means your are not the "average raider". Why are you not happy with how things are, they are very suited to you at the moment.
    Because i realize that is a problem when you have two difficulties aimed for a same, minority group, and the mayority of people having no raid difficulty suited for them (because LFR is too easy and it SHOULD be easy because the aim if uncoordinated groups, and Normal/heroic are too ahrd for the average player).

    I think Normal should be tuned for the average raider, and that means tuning it a lot lower than it is, and heroic difficulty should have their earlier bosses tuned a little harder.

    Then they should make that you can start heroic without the need to finish Normal first, so you dont force heroic players yo play Normal difficulty first.

    They also need to provides catch up dungeons and old valor point gear from justice.

    I dont need something to affect me personally to see that is bad designed.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-04-17 at 04:50 PM.

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