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  1. #1221
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Not really, it would make people quit sooner.

    And Normal raiding is NOT easy, the problem is that people that are too good at it doesnt realize how over the average they are.
    Because crushing ulduar in a week, raiding 5 times/week on a well above average guild and calling it easy isnt ironic.
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  2. #1222
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Not really, it would make people quit sooner.

    And Normal raiding is NOT easy, the problem is that people that are too good at it doesnt realize how over the average they are.
    It shouldnt, I dont propose to turn leveling into a punitive and gruesome experience. Highlighting how good and useful are that new cd you got, how to do a simple but effective rotation while dodging shit would if anything make leveling more fun.

    Again, they are easy, once you have the basics covered. Only heroics require time and dedication beyond that.

  3. #1223
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    It shouldnt, I dont propose to turn leveling into a punitive and gruesome experience. Highlighting how good and useful are that new cd you got, how to do a simple but effective rotation while dodging shit would if anything make leveling more fun.
    Would help. In the abence of teaching, it makes no sense to have raids require CD usage then, surely?
    Again, they are easy, once you have the basics covered. Only heroics require time and dedication beyond that.
    Can't be true, because hundreds of thousands tried to raid T14 and T15 and the majority of them failed.

    Easy, good, bad etc are all relative statements. They can only be relative to the people they apply to. To say something is easy as though easy was some objective measure doesn't work, it's like saying everyone can be tall.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 01:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Because crushing ulduar in a week, raiding 5 times/week on a well above average guild and calling it easy isnt ironic.
    It does illustrate something I hve been finding. Plenty of people who used to be able to raid at the sharp end (or could just about get by in normal mode) are struggling as of late because the difficulty has ramped up. They haven't changed, their abilities capped out back in wrath of TBC or whatever at which time the content was tolerable for them - but the game has started to grow more and more tricky.

    One issue I think is the difficulty of communicating this to people who haven't experiences it. It's like an old sportsman who can still perform to near his peak standard, and his standard was shit hot back in the day but modern methods and training and insights mean his up to date equivalents completely annihilate him and his old standard is now mediocre at best.
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  4. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Would help. In the abence of teaching, it makes no sense to have raids require CD usage then, surely?


    Can't be true, because hundreds of thousands tried to raid T14 and T15 and the majority of them failed.

    Easy, good, bad etc are all relative statements. They can only be relative to the people they apply to. To say something is easy as though easy was some objective measure doesn't work, it's like saying everyone can be tall.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 01:04 PM ----------



    It does illustrate something I hve been finding. Plenty of people who used to be able to raid at the sharp end (or could just about get by in normal mode) are struggling as of late because the difficulty has ramped up. They haven't changed, their abilities capped out back in wrath of TBC or whatever at which time the content was tolerable for them - but the game has started to grow more and more tricky.

    One issue I think is the difficulty of communicating this to people who haven't experiences it. It's like an old sportsman who can still perform to near his peak standard, and his standard was shit hot back in the day but modern methods and training and insights mean his up to date equivalents completely annihilate him and his old standard is now mediocre at best.
    Maybe, but you know, I think you can't be as sharp as you were back then if you're now just doing normals and raiding a lot less. You have to train for it or you'll loose some bit by bit.
    I used to have a pretty decent aim when I was playing a lot of FPS (Quake and such), now when I try to play some, its nowhere near what is was before, some old reflex are still there, but its clearly not as sharp.

    I'm sure you got some remnants in there and you never loose all of it, but i'm not sure at all my best days as a mage are right now.
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  5. #1225
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Not really, it would make people quit sooner.
    I'd say that there is nothing wrong with encouraging people to use certain abilities, or even just reminding them of their existence. It doesn't have to be something compulsory or even make the leveling experience any harder; in some cases it can even make the leveling easier or more fun.

  6. #1226
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Maybe, but you know, I think you can't be as sharp as you were back then if you're now just doing normals and raiding a lot less. You have to train for it or you'll loose some bit by bit.
    Personally, I am fine. But t14 and t15 have had the T11 effect (back then the guild basically split into two because half of the old crew could no longer keep up) on people who made the grade previously.
    I used to have a pretty decent aim when I was playing a lot of FPS (Quake and such), now when I try to play some, its nowhere near what is was before, some old reflex are still there, but its clearly not as sharp.

    I'm sure you got some remnants in there and you never loose all of it, but i'm not sure at all my best days as a mage are right now.
    Indeed, but why on earth should you need to be on your best days to do something "easy" "for bads" etc?
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  7. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Personally, I am fine. But t14 and t15 have had the T11 effect (back then the guild basically split into two because half of the old crew could no longer keep up) on people who made the grade previously.


    Indeed, but why on earth should you need to be on your best days to do something "easy" "for bads" etc?
    I don't need to, but it may be one of the reasons some of us find T14 and T15 are hard. Imho, I don't feel the same way, because we've been raiding with the same people for years now and we just don't seems to find it hard. We almost always cleared normal modes in time, despite having to pug 2/3 people every week since we started HoF (most of the time, tanks), some week we couldn't raid and we finished just in time (we could've finished a lot sooner if ToeS wasnt gated and empress was so hard comparing to others encounters)

    In fact, we were always having around the 35/40 down of the server and now we're always around 22/23, maybe because there's less people, but I feel we've never been as fast as this tier.
    We never spent more than 4 hours on a boss in T15, but we did spent a lot of time on Garalon and Empress, probably more than 7/8 hours.

    2/3 of us even changed character, our tank is now playing his Shadow Priest, one of our dps is now healing, we lost our tanks and just recruited 2 (undergeared) last week despite searching for some since ToeS.. Maybe we're getting better, but I doubt it.
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  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Again, they are easy, once you have the basics covered. Only heroics require time and dedication beyond that.
    I find this hard to believe. My fairly casual 10 man group is made up primarily of what I would above average players (We've all completed gold challenge modes, we've raided before except for a couple of people who have caught up reasonably quick, a few of us have gotten ranked parses on WoL and the people who haven't have come close) and we are finding tier 14 normal to be very challenging.

    We fucking destroyed tier 14 normal. Tore it to shreds, except for Elegon, I don't think any boss took more than 5-10 pulls, and that was maybe 15-20 at most, because we were doing the fight totally wrong without knowing it. We only did 3 heroics in Tier 14, but that was just from a lack of trying. We started raiding very late in 5.2, so we only had a few weeks.

    We then killed Jin'Rokh on our 3rd pull. Wiped to Horridon 40 times. Wiped to council about 30 times. Tortos about 35 times. We got Megaera and Ji'kun down in like 10 tries each, and should have Durumu this week after a couple of low HP% wipes last raid. You can go ahead and call us terrible, but I know we're not. We're not amazing, we lack some consistency, but based on our Tier 14 performance, it seems like the amount of wiping we're doing in ToT is slightly out of whack.

    If ToT Normal was supposed to be a challenge progression from tier 14 Normal, they missed the mark by a long shot.

  9. #1229
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    He has 140 letters limit, right? Are you seriously expecting anything elaborated on a tweet? I don't even see where he is "acting" as if it is balanced. He puts two things into one tweet. Obviously this issue could be adressed in an entire dev watercooler and not be resolved.
    Street has a history of sugarcoating the tuning issue. In his Cataclysm post mortem, he stated

    I don’t believe that the instances were too hard; it’s obvious there are players who enjoy that content.
    This shows exactly the same logical error, ignoring the numbers involved to present a "false balance". Taken at face value, that comment implies that if there are even two players who enjoyed them, then Cata 5 mans weren't too hard!
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  10. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by Halifax View Post
    I find this hard to believe. My fairly casual 10 man group is made up primarily of what I would above average players (We've all completed gold challenge modes, we've raided before except for a couple of people who have caught up reasonably quick, a few of us have gotten ranked parses on WoL and the people who haven't have come close) and we are finding tier 14 normal to be very challenging.

    We fucking destroyed tier 14 normal. Tore it to shreds, except for Elegon, I don't think any boss took more than 5-10 pulls, and that was maybe 15-20 at most, because we were doing the fight totally wrong without knowing it. We only did 3 heroics in Tier 14, but that was just from a lack of trying. We started raiding very late in 5.2, so we only had a few weeks.

    We then killed Jin'Rokh on our 3rd pull. Wiped to Horridon 40 times. Wiped to council about 30 times. Tortos about 35 times. We got Megaera and Ji'kun down in like 10 tries each, and should have Durumu this week after a couple of low HP% wipes last raid. You can go ahead and call us terrible, but I know we're not. We're not amazing, we lack some consistency, but based on our Tier 14 performance, it seems like the amount of wiping we're doing in ToT is slightly out of whack.

    If ToT Normal was supposed to be a challenge progression from tier 14 Normal, they missed the mark by a long shot.
    If the harder bosses are taking you 30 wipes, I don't see how that's bad tuning. After all, if your intention is to raid normals and leave at that, and you expect to have 3-5 pulls per boss... Well, you would have finished the whole tier in a couple of weeks, raiding ~12-15 hours total. One would expect a normal only guild to take several weeks, advancing slowly yet having lots of saves to spare before the new raid comes in.

  11. #1231
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    It does illustrate something I hve been finding. Plenty of people who used to be able to raid at the sharp end (or could just about get by in normal mode) are struggling as of late because the difficulty has ramped up. They haven't changed, their abilities capped out back in wrath of TBC or whatever at which time the content was tolerable for them - but the game has started to grow more and more tricky.

    One issue I think is the difficulty of communicating this to people who haven't experiences it. It's like an old sportsman who can still perform to near his peak standard, and his standard was shit hot back in the day but modern methods and training and insights mean his up to date equivalents completely annihilate him and his old standard is now mediocre at best.
    It wasn't even that long ago. I was raiding cata perfectly fine. This tier is just off the wall fucking stupid as as healer. I keep going back to it but even H bethilac was easier to heal. Honestly I had less trouble in that. Were talking about NORMALS here to for christs sake.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #1232
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    It shouldnt, I dont propose to turn leveling into a punitive and gruesome experience. Highlighting how good and useful are that new cd you got, how to do a simple but effective rotation while dodging shit would if anything make leveling more fun.

    Again, they are easy, once you have the basics covered. Only heroics require time and dedication beyond that.
    That would mean honogeneize cds to be given to every class at the exact same level, which i think is not happenign right now.

    And again, no, they are nto easy, even after you have the basics covered.

    Some heroics are easier than some Normal fights. BOTH require time and dedication that most people just dont have.

    The difference between Normal and Heroic is not as big as it should to be honest.

    More people killed Heroic Stone Guards in the previous tier than Empress N

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 12:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    I'd say that there is nothing wrong with encouraging people to use certain abilities, or even just reminding them of their existence. It doesn't have to be something compulsory or even make the leveling experience any harder; in some cases it can even make the leveling easier or more fun.
    In theory this sounds right, but if you dont "force" the use of that ability, most people will just not use it and just brute force whatever is needed to be done.

    And if you do "force" the use, then you need to make an homogeneization of all clases so that every class has the tools you are "forcing" and that they are at their disposal at the same level.

  13. #1233
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    That would mean honogeneize cds to be given to every class at the exact same level, which i think is not happenign right now.

    And again, no, they are nto easy, even after you have the basics covered.

    Some heroics are easier than some Normal fights. BOTH require time and dedication that most people just dont have.

    The difference between Normal and Heroic is not as big as it should to be honest.

    More people killed Heroic Stone Guards in the previous tier than Empress N

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 12:13 PM ----------



    In theory this sounds right, but if you dont "force" the use of that ability, most people will just not use it and just brute force whatever is needed to be done.

    And if you do "force" the use, then you need to make an homogeneization of all clases so that every class has the tools you are "forcing" and that they are at their disposal at the same level.
    First of all, most classes have access to the basic types of cool downs. Damage reduction, speed increase, etc. There are a few gaps but usually its balanced out by other abilities. So they are already as homogenized as they can be without being the same damn thing. So yes I think they could force the use of certain abilities in questing or other things to teach people how to actually use all of their character instead of just 3 buttons.

    Also, if someone doesn't have the time and dedication to complete something, they shouldn't do it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 10:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It wasn't even that long ago. I was raiding cata perfectly fine. This tier is just off the wall fucking stupid as as healer. I keep going back to it but even H bethilac was easier to heal. Honestly I had less trouble in that. Were talking about NORMALS here to for christs sake.
    What about fights like Atramedes where you running around avoiding the sound disks and the beam o death. That's a ton of moving if I remember correctly.

    Also, I heal... and for the most part have no issues with T15 or T14 for that matter.
    Last edited by cabyio; 2013-04-19 at 04:32 PM.

  14. #1234
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    What about fights like Atramedes where you running around avoiding the sound disks and the beam o death. That's a ton of moving if I remember correctly.
    You mean the boss that got soloed by hunters?
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  15. #1235
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You mean the boss that got soloed by hunters?
    While it was current content?

  16. #1236
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    While it was current content?
    Yeah. Minelol or whoever that amazing DK is named showed the way, iirc.
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  17. #1237
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    First of all, most classes have access to the basic types of cool downs. Damage reduction, speed increase, etc. There are a few gaps but usually its balanced out by other abilities. So they are already as homogenized as they can be without being the same damn thing. So yes I think they could force the use of certain abilities in questing or other things to teach people how to actually use all of their character instead of just 3 buttons.

    Also, if someone doesn't have the time and dedication to complete something, they shouldn't do it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 10:19 AM ----------



    What about fights like Atramedes where you running around avoiding the sound disks and the beam o death. That's a ton of moving if I remember correctly.

    Also, I heal... and for the most part have no issues with T15 or T14 for that matter.
    No, not everyone has access to damage reduction cds, and they dont get them even near the same level. So no, you cant force the use, because many classes cant do it.

    Anyway, the problem is not that people doesnt know they have a damage reduction cd, or any other basic skills, so it wont fix anything.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 01:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    While it was current content?
    Yes, lol. Healing atramedes wasnt a problem, since there were almost no damage there, and 90% of the damage was avoidable, which just doesnt happen here.

  18. #1238
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yeah. Minelol or whoever that amazing DK is named showed the way, iirc.
    Huh, crazy. Do you think that this kind of thing should happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    No, not everyone has access to damage reduction cds, and they dont get them even near the same level. So no, you cant force the use, because many classes cant do it.

    Anyway, the problem is not that people doesnt know they have a damage reduction cd, or any other basic skills, so it wont fix anything.
    What classes do not have some sort of dmg reduction/shield/selfheal?

    Yes, lol. Healing atramedes wasnt a problem, since there were almost no damage there, and 90% of the damage was avoidable, which just doesnt happen here.
    Right. Isn't it boring as hell for healers if no one is taking any damage? I've only healed in MoP, have been DPS and Tank in the past. I constantly have to be on the ball when im healing MoP. If I wasn't I would just be sitting around waiting for someone to take damage, boring, no?

  19. #1239
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    This tier is not about high HPS or DPS requierments and I believe that is where allot of the "its way harder" is actually comming from. Tellign some one to look up thre ortation, gt tehm gear and meet the dps check is way simpler than needing them to have situational awareness and better reactions!

    Allot of the "it's way harder to heal" comes from people either standing in or not reacting to bad things. Another thing is the fights seem to have been tuned with the mindset that peopel are use to there class and know it well enough to use the tools at there disposal. However the AVG raider in normal's now days it looks liek they have forgotten all there tools... I don't knwo how many times I see logs of prot wars with no shattering throw use, hardly any or no intervien's cast, no demo shout useage etc etc and that is TANKS ffs not using there tools! A normal raid should be tuned for the players to know there class and use all the tools while heroics should be tuned not only for all tools to be used but used perfectly!

    The main issue is most have stopped looking into strats / watching vids and in general don't review there logs. Normal should not = faceroll don't do your homework thats what LFR is! However it should not = pin point precision like heroics shoudl either... but having a hard time on kills then having a handfull of raiders half assing and not using all the tools should = the norm for normals as it should be NORMAL that they understand how to use there toon if they are raiding!

    Again.. I will post this

    My armory : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced
    Our WOL from this past wed : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/thwxouhngwok5iob/
    Yes thats 9 manning the bosses up to Ji-kun since one raider had not logged in yet and we just started pulling! It's not a hard tier per say if you understand the fights and peoepl understand how to use there toons! As well the casual argument for being bad has 0 merit as far as I'm ocncerned...we raid 4 hours a week... you don't get much more casual and still raid normals!

    So far 9 times out of 10 the tier is only as hard as you make it on yourslef.... wont even get started on guilds trying to copy top end guild strats and not budging on the strat even though it's clearly not for them!
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-04-19 at 04:59 PM.

  20. #1240
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    This tier is not about high HPS or DPS requierments and I believe that is where allot of the "its way harder" is actually comming from. Tellign some one to look up thre ortation, gt tehm gear and meet the dps check is way simpler than needing them to have situational awareness and better reactions!

    Allot of the "it's way harder to heal" comes from people either standing in or not reacting to bad things. Another thing is the fights seem to have been tuned with the mindset that peopel are use to there class and know it well enough to use the tools at there disposal. However the AVG raider in normal's now days it looks liek they have forgotten all there tools... I don't knwo how many times I see logs of prot wars with no shattering throw use, hardly any or no intercept's cast, no demo shout useage etc etc and that is TANKS ffs not using there tools! A normal raid should be tuned for the players to know there class and use all the tools while heroics should be tuned not only for all tools to be used but used perfectly!

    The main issue is most have stopped looking into strats / watching vids and in general don't review there logs. Normal should not = faceroll don't do your homework thats what LFR is! However it should not = pin point precision like heroics shoudl either... but having a hard time on kills then having a handfull of raiders half assing and not using all the tools should = the norm for normals as it should be NORMAL that they understand how to use there toon if they are raiding!

    Again.. I will post this

    My armory : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced
    Our WOL from this past wed : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/thwxouhngwok5iob/
    Yes thats 9 manning the bosses up to Ji-kun since one raider had not logged in yet and we just started pulling! It's not a hard tier per say if you understand the fights and peoepl understand how to use there toons! As well the casual argument for being bad has 0 merit as far as I'm ocncerned...we raid 4 hours a week... you don't get much more casual and still raid normals!

    So far 9/10 the tier is only as hard as you make it on yourslef.... wont even get started on guilds trying to copy top end guild strats and not budging on the strat even though it's clearly not for them!
    Again, only 25% of people could complete T14.

    Yes, we get it, its not hard for you, but the thing YOU dont understand, is that you belong to the top 25% skilled people in the world in this game in PVE aspects.

    What we are saying is, Normals should be tuned for more than just the top 25%.

    You are part of the elite, you belong to heroics, not normals.

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