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  1. #1381
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Hardly. We cleared normal ulduar in a WEEK. Their were maybe 3 hard bosses. Were not clearing normal ToT in a week and few guilds are apparently. ToT is through the fucking ROOF in terms of difficulty and every fight on normal feels like a hardcore or worse fight in previous tiers.
    If you cleared Ulduar in a week then your guild was reasonably good by the standards of that time.

    Looking at the point that I also edited into my previous reply, I think that when talking about the design of the encounters then the ToT bosses have quite a number of mechanics. The numbers required are still relatively smaller than they are for just about every past heroic mode, apart from a number of offenders such as Jaraxxus and Morchok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You know what else many guilds aren't prepared for? Normal raids with heroic tuning. How many guilds do you think will make the transition through this tier? All signs point to less and less and less. And if less and less are doing normal how many do you think will make the transition to heroic? even less.
    I think the problem with this tier on normal is the lack of gradual entry bosses. Many might not get the feeling that they have their foot in the door, making the transition into T15 harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The heroic modes are content that should be aimed for a very small subset of the raiding community that is interested in such challenge. Just like challenge modes. They should not be aimed for players who want to raid normals, i.e Medium difficulty. I'm all for heroic modes doing exactly what they should do be a real challenge.
    I am not against this on a personal level either, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    If normal raiders want to attempt heroics that's fine but the game doesn't need to have normals tuned with those players in mind.
    This is the current design we have at hand. It extends the content for these guilds and I am comfortable saying that they are a majority of all the guilds that end up killing any bosses on heroic. They also make up a notable portion of all the guilds in the game and require content that is on their level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In normal ToT if I move to avoid dmg well I still take dmg. It makes no sense.
    I really don't see the issue. This merely combines two mechanics into one. The falling rocks on Tortos are practically an equivalent of the flame patches and the unavoidable fire damage of Beth'tilak being tied into a single mechanic.

  2. #1382
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    Quote Originally Posted by discmeedel View Post
    The thing is that you are clearly stating you are a normal raider and have been doing so all the time in this thread, that much we can agree on. At the same time however a lot of your posts indicate that you have the goal of killing a few heroic bosses too and i dont know if its just me but it seems a bit odd that you call it overtuned when you are alrdy half way through the instance after just a few weeks and still your only a normal raider and the definition of a normal raider is not someone who wants to raid heroics later on. So to me the fact that your guild is where its at tells me its proper tuning for you guys atleast, since you make yourself out to be normal raiders. But im really not sure how to interpret what you say well enough because a lot of what you say indicate you are someone who wants to raid heroics and just want to be done with normals quick and therefor you want nerfs. However sometimes you go back to the subject of you only being a normal mode guild and its to hard for you, i feel you need to make up your mind, but maybe thats just me.
    5/12 isn't halfway but relative to what we did in the past it's a joke. In previous tiers this group would be 11/12 at least by now. Put us in any other raid tier and were pretty much there. This raid tier however is through the fucking roof. It's overtuned for NORMALS because we use to kick the shit out of normals. Now I quit for a bit and didn't plan or intend to raid heroics but I'm being asked to do that in these normal raids.

    I don't want to raid heroics. I'm being asked to raid at that level though. I just wanted to come back and do normals and MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE sample some of the heroic bosses this tier. Not heroic bosses on normal mode.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #1383
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's hard to say. I had raided normals and some of the previous heroics that tier so I was fairly well geared. I'm currently 504ilvl and am 5/12 in ToT. The claim that it's easier than normal ToT isn't unusual in the slightest. Like I said If I moved to avoid dmg in normal or even heroic firelands I avoided that dmg. In normal ToT if I move to avoid dmg well I still take dmg. It makes no sense.
    Some abilities are just made so that they do damage even if you avoid them, the difference however is oneshot or healable damage, thats the passive damage output of that boss when its not rampaging and as you already know if you dont want to take any damage at all you are free to not kill the green head at all, you are choosing to do it your way and sure you can argue that just cuz its possible to faceroll through it with gear and just spam heal you have to do it, but with that mentality you wont even be clearing normals for a long time, blizzard has stated many times: Normal modes are not made to have any hard dps checks or healing checks, if you do the right strat you will succeed. Now this doesnt mean some bosses cant be bruteforced because its impossible to make bosses not being affected by gear, because thats how raiding in wow works. You have made the choice yourself to take moderate damage even though you avoided the explosion instead of having to run from beams and take 0 damage.
    Last edited by discmeedel; 2013-04-20 at 08:12 PM.
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  4. #1384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    If you cleared Ulduar in a week then your guild was reasonably good by the standards of that time.

    Looking at the point that I also edited into my previous reply, I think that when talking about the design of the encounters then the ToT bosses have quite a number of mechanics. The numbers required are still relatively smaller than they are for just about every past heroic mode, apart from a number of offenders such as Jaraxxus and Morchok.



    I think the problem with this tier on normal is the lack of gradual entry bosses. Many might not get the feeling that they have their foot in the door, making the transition into T15 harder.



    I am not against this on a personal level either, however.



    This is the current design we have at hand. It extends the content for these guilds and I am comfortable saying that they are a majority of all the guilds that end up killing any bosses on heroic. They also make up a notable portion of all the guilds in the game and require content that is on their level.



    I really don't see the issue. This merely combines two mechanics into one. The falling rocks on Tortos are practically an equivalent of the flame patches and the unavoidable fire damage of Beth'tilak being tied into a single mechanic.
    The issue is that if I'm busy moving from a bit of dmg then I'm not healing that dmg. It divides my focus up between having to run and avoid that dmg and automatically puts me at a defecit as a healer. Theirs only so much shit I can pay attention to. I can't divide my focus up a million ways and be asked to do any of those things effectively. If I move out of dmg I should not take that dmg because otherwise I'm not gonna do as good a job healing that dmg because my focus is set on constantly running an obstacle course, dodging shiit left right and center.

    They don't make up a majorioty of the guilds in the game. You have to be kidding. The majority of the guilds in the game probably aren't raiding, they exist as purely social conventions. The majority of raiding guilds MIGHT BE heroic raiding guilds now but that's only because the tuning is so piss poor that the normal raiding guilds have packed up and are now just lfr guilds.

    THe lack of a proper curve is a problem I agree.


    The number of mechanics are actually greater and their impact is far more detrimental. We killed ULduar in a week. We weren't overgeared and we only raided one more day than we do now. The players (by and large) haven't changed. Their still just as good. This raid is off the fucking wall in terms of difficulty and I have a hard time understand why everyone is defending this.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #1385
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    We cleared it in a week of raiding 3-4 days, only one more than our current raid schedule. We also were not overgeared. I'm currently 504ilvl and starting raiding ToT at ilvl 498. I was not overgeared for ulduar and I'm not overgeared for ToT. How much more gear do I need? Ulduar was PISS EASY by comparison. This raid is off the fucking wall.
    Ulduar isn't really comparable. Have you not noticed that since LFR they have gradually increased the difficulty of normal modes? Ulduar had no LFR and so it made a lot of sense to make normal fairly accessible (especially if you consider that people were going there from Naxx which was ludicrously trivial). ToT has lfr, if your friends aren't all that great or you just want to go raid and dick around. Normal is really just LFR where things do non trivial damage and bosses have proportionally more hp as LFR really does have pretty much identical mechanics this time. If you want to raid in a setting where you aren't punished for something like ignoring 2 entire mechanics on Mag, they have created that for you.

  6. #1386
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    Quote Originally Posted by discmeedel View Post
    Some abilities are just made so that they do damage even if you avoid them, the difference however is oneshot or healable damage, thats the passive damage output of that boss when its not rampaging and as you already know if you dont want to take any damage at all you are free to not kill the green head at all, you are choosing to do it your way and sure you can argue that just cuz its possible to faceroll through it with gear and just spam heal you have to do it, but with that mentality you wont even be clearing normals for a long time, blizzard has stated many times: Normal modes are not made to have any hard dps checks or healing checks, if you do the right strat you will succeed. Now this doesnt mean some bosses cant be bruteforced because its impossible to make bosses not being affected by gear, because thats how raiding in wow works. You have made the choice yourself to take moderate damage even though you avoided the explosion instead of having to run from beams and take 0 damage.
    If meg was the only boss who did this you'd have a point. Tortos does this as well and going forward I'm sure we'll have to look forward to more cheese mechanics that don't make the fight feel hard, they make the fight feel cheesy or overwhelming. Like the shitty camera angles in Ninja Gaiden. DIdn't make ninja gaiden feel hard, it just made it feel cheesy and stupid.

    We do the right strat. We killed meg and to be honest I don't need lectures on our strat from forum guys. Like I said before if the strat we choose to do wasn't meant to be viable then they ought not to let us do it that way. If they intend that we can do it that way then they ought to tune the fight so we can do it that way and it's still NORMAL.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #1387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    -snip-
    All normal raiders should finish the tier two months or so before the next one comes out. That way they have somet time to do some of the heroic bosses but also get alts in and friends in who aren't part of the main raid. I don't think it should be set in stone like that but you wanted a number so I gave it to you.
    -snip
    You are, right here, arguing exactly what I'm saying. 2 months before the next tier comes out. We haven't even had patch 5.3 come out yet (/spoiler its not a new tier of raiding) We have a LONG time left in this tier, so you and your guild will have plenty of time to get your friends in to see the normal mode content.

    What is your current progression? What are you stuck on? How is your raid geared? I seem to hear a lot of anger about the difficulty without questions about the raid itself. Is it possible your raids understanding of the mechanics isn't equal to your expectation of the bosses?
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  8. #1388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Ulduar isn't really comparable. Have you not noticed that since LFR they have gradually increased the difficulty of normal modes? Ulduar had no LFR and so it made a lot of sense to make normal fairly accessible (especially if you consider that people were going there from Naxx which was ludicrously trivial). ToT has lfr, if your friends aren't all that great or you just want to go raid and dick around. Normal is really just LFR where things do non trivial damage and bosses have proportionally more hp. If you want to raid in a setting where you aren't punished for something like ignoring 2 entire mechanics on Mag, they have created that for you.

    Yea I've heard that before to and I don't buy it. Why should normal mode raiders have to be subject to an increase in difficulty when lfr was released? THey were happy doing their normal mode raids and enjoying them with their friends when it was perfect for them. Why should they have expected an increase in difficulty because of lfr? Why should they accept that? What about lfr automatically says normals have to be harder?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #1389
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    If meg was the only boss who did this you'd have a point. Tortos does this as well and going forward I'm sure we'll have to look forward to more cheese mechanics that don't make the fight feel hard, they make the fight feel cheesy or overwhelming. Like the shitty camera angles in Ninja Gaiden. DIdn't make ninja gaiden feel hard, it just made it feel cheesy and stupid.

    We do the right strat. We killed meg and to be honest I don't need lectures on our strat from forum guys. Like I said before if the strat we choose to do wasn't meant to be viable then they ought not to let us do it that way. If they intend that we can do it that way then they ought to tune the fight so we can do it that way and it's still NORMAL.
    No one said normals should be easy if you do it the hard way.
    (see what i did there.)
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  10. #1390
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    Quote Originally Posted by royals View Post
    You are, right here, arguing exactly what I'm saying. 2 months before the next tier comes out. We haven't even had patch 5.3 come out yet (/spoiler its not a new tier of raiding) We have a LONG time left in this tier, so you and your guild will have plenty of time to get your friends in to see the normal mode content.

    What is your current progression? What are you stuck on? How is your raid geared? I seem to hear a lot of anger about the difficulty without questions about the raid itself. Is it possible your raids understanding of the mechanics isn't equal to your expectation of the bosses?
    At this rate we'll be lucky to kill lei shen before the next patch comes out. The item upgrades will help. I doubt we'll get any alts or under performing friends in the raid.

    Honestly I'm not asking for any of you to critique my raid and their ability. Their good. That's all you need to know. They were good in the past and if this raid tier wasn't so fucking off the wall we'd probably be 11/12 normal by now.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by discmeedel View Post
    No one said normals should be easy if you do it the hard way.
    (see what i did there.)
    We're not doing it the hard way. We're doing it the simple way. If Blizzard didn't want us to do it the simple way than they ought to not let us use that strat. In the same way we stack the council boss and cleave it the fuck down to make that fight a joke. Unless your gonna tell me that is the correct strat for that boss?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #1391
    Quote Originally Posted by AnythingZ View Post
    We killed it the first week pre-nerf at ~494 ilvl, and we are just a casual guild (5/12 now). Horridon is just about doing what you have to do and not being a dps-whore.
    First nerf was needed since it was obviously a bit too hard for a second encounter, after Jin'rok. But this one wasn't needed at all, fight was already a joke.
    you guys have been sucking hard then since. If you killed it first week but you're only 5/12 now??? come on man, you should be 12/12 with ease. it sounds like ur bragging but then at the same time it sounds like your group needs the nerfs.

  12. #1392
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yea I've heard that before to and I don't buy it. Why should normal mode raiders have to be subject to an increase in difficulty when lfr was released? THey were happy doing their normal mode raids and enjoying them with their friends when it was perfect for them. Why should they have expected an increase in difficulty because of lfr? Why should they accept that? What about lfr automatically says normals have to be harder?
    Learn2play? Learn your class. Sounds like a group of casuals actually had to use their brain for once and are now pouting. Go get better, read up on fights, look at peoples numbers i will bet ANYTHING that you raid isnt putting out the hps, dps, they should. I help some casual friends and each time i look at their logs, i see people doing horrible and they have doing it for weeks meaning they had tons of gear. Go look for someone else to blame for your piss poor play.

  13. #1393
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Learn2play? Learn your class. Sounds like a group of casuals actually had to use their brain for once and are now pouting. Go get better, read up on fights, look at peoples numbers i will bet ANYTHING that you raid isnt putting out the hps, dps, they should. I help some casual friends and each time i look at their logs, i see people doing horrible and they have doing it for weeks meaning they had tons of gear. Go look for someone else to blame for your piss poor play.
    *sigh* and then you wonder where all the raiders go? Assholes in forums and on trade chat tell them they suck and of course nobody in their right mind puts up with it. Keep it up sparky, you'll see how fast these raids turn into EASY FUCKING JOKES because their are far less of you than their are players who would prefer easier content. You are a minority and shrinking one every day.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #1394
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    At this rate we'll be lucky to kill lei shen before the next patch comes out. The item upgrades will help. I doubt we'll get any alts or under performing friends in the raid.

    Honestly I'm not asking for any of you to critique my raid and their ability. Their good. That's all you need to know. They were good in the past and if this raid tier wasn't so fucking off the wall we'd probably be 11/12 normal by now.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:19 PM ----------



    We're not doing it the hard way. We're doing it the simple way. If Blizzard didn't want us to do it the simple way than they ought to not let us use that strat. In the same way we stack the council boss and cleave it the fuck down to make that fight a joke. Unless your gonna tell me that is the correct strat for that boss?
    As i alrdy explained to you, some strats will never be able to be done unless you are at a specific gear level and thats what blizzard did on their part to stop people from doing it, obviously some people come to the fight overgeared and then see that this is a possible strat so why not do it, pretty much like your guild. If you would not have the gear for it you would not be able to kill the boss until you farm some more gear. Sure you can do normals this way to but is it optimal in any way? No.
    To be honest though i think you need to chill down a bit and face the fact that your raidgroup is way worse than it once have been and realize where you are at, you know raiding isnt only about personal skill, you also need to know what to do in fights and work as a team, if you cant do that then obviously your group will be worse, so as others have tried to point out, try critizing your co-players instead of the actual raid.
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  15. #1395
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    Quote Originally Posted by discmeedel View Post
    As i alrdy explained to you, some strats will never be able to be done unless you are at a specific gear level and thats what blizzard did on their part to stop people from doing it, obviously some people come to the fight overgeared and then see that this is a possible strat so why not do it, pretty much like your guild. If you would not have the gear for it you would not be able to kill the boss until you farm some more gear. Sure you can do normals this way to but is it optimal in any way? No.
    To be honest though i think you need to chill down a bit and face the fact that your raidgroup is way worse than it once have been and realize where you are at, you know raiding isnt only about personal skill, you also need to know what to do in fights and work as a team, if you cant do that then obviously your group will be worse, so as others have tried to point out, try critizing your co-players instead of the actual raid.
    Yes you explained that but that's piss poor development on their part. If they don't want you to do a fight a certain way they shouldn't let you do it that way regardless of item lvl. If they do intent that strat to viable then it ought to be tuned properly. It's extremely lazy development either way.

    I'm chill, I just don't need or care to have me or my raid picked apart by random kids on a forum who insist this tier of tuning is proper and isn't overtuned. All of these fights feel like heroic bosses. When we killed meg you'd have thought we'd downed a heroic boss because they are that difficulty. The numbers say it's to hard. The developers nerfing it already suggests it's to hard. Anecdote and experience suggest its to hard. None of you can accept that because well some of you are just that full of yourselves and some of you just don't seem to think it's hard and that's fine. Their is no arguing with you about this though for whatever reason and it's a shame.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-20 at 08:32 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #1396
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    *sigh* and then you wonder where all the raiders go? Assholes in forums and on trade chat tell them they suck and of course nobody in their right mind puts up with it. Keep it up sparky, you'll see how fast these raids turn into EASY FUCKING JOKES because their are far less of you than their are players who would prefer easier content. You are a minority and shrinking one every day.
    Cant wait for Titan and leave the nerfed wow to you then you can feel like you are actually"good".

  17. #1397
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    *sigh* and then you wonder where all the raiders go? Assholes in forums and on trade chat tell them they suck and of course nobody in their right mind puts up with it. Keep it up sparky, you'll see how fast these raids turn into EASY FUCKING JOKES because their are far less of you than their are players who would prefer easier content. You are a minority and shrinking one every day.
    Even though i didnt like how he put it either, you still cant neglect that the fact is true and to be honest. Anyone quitting the game because they get insulted once by someone is just silly because if you are one of those players that have no clue of what they are doing there are players that are nice to them and want to help them out, its just that the douchy ones are easier to identify. Also as a matter of fact you are also acting a lot like a douche yourself which makes some of us that just want to help also look at bad, so please as i usually say to my guildies, learn to take constructive criticism or let your stubbornness kill your fun in the game.
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  18. #1398
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes you explained that but that's piss poor development on their part. If they don't want you to do a fight a certain way they shouldn't let you do it that way regardless of item lvl. If they do intent that strat to viable then it ought to be tuned properly. It's extremely lazy development either way.

    I'm chill, I just don't need or care to have me or my raid picked apart by random kids on a forum who insist this tier of tuning is proper and isn't overtuned. All of these fights feel like heroic bosses. When we killed meg you'd have thought we'd downed a heroic boss because they are that difficulty. The numbers say it's to hard. The developers nerfing it already suggests it's to hard. Anecdote and experience suggest its to hard. None of you can accept that because well some of you are just that full of yourselves and some of you just don't seem to think it's hard and that's fine. Their is no arguing with you about this though for whatever reason and it's a shame.
    Sad if random "kids" are smarter than you and can actually chew bubble gum and walk through content while you whine here instead of learning and getting better.

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    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-04-21 at 05:50 AM.

  19. #1399
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes you explained that but that's piss poor development on their part. If they don't want you to do a fight a certain way they shouldn't let you do it that way regardless of item lvl. If they do intent that strat to viable then it ought to be tuned properly. It's extremely lazy development either way.

    I'm chill, I just don't need or care to have me or my raid picked apart by random kids on a forum who insist this tier of tuning is proper and isn't overtuned. All of these fights feel like heroic bosses. When we killed meg you'd have thought we'd downed a heroic boss because they are that difficulty. The numbers say it's to hard. The developers nerfing it already suggests it's to hard. Anecdote and experience suggest its to hard. None of you can accept that because well some of you are just that full of yourselves and some of you just don't seem to think it's hard and that's fine. Their is no arguing with you about this though for whatever reason and it's a shame.
    If you recall earlier you know yourself that i actually also think normals are tuned a bit to high but i still cant neglect when someone is complaining on something being to hard when they do it in a harder way than supposed, but to end this part i think we should just agree to disagree because its not leading to anything constructive.
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  20. #1400
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    Quote Originally Posted by discmeedel View Post
    Even though i didnt like how he put it either, you still cant neglect that the fact is true and to be honest. Anyone quitting the game because they get insulted once by someone is just silly because if you are one of those players that have no clue of what they are doing there are players that are nice to them and want to help them out, its just that the douchy ones are easier to identify. Also as a matter of fact you are also acting a lot like a douche yourself which makes some of us that just want to help also look at bad, so please as i usually say to my guildies, learn to take constructive criticism or let your stubbornness kill your fun in the game.
    Really? you think it's silly for someone who hops online into a game, get's called a scrub (and it's not just once) and leaves the game after being insulted and subjected to a bevy of assholes insisting that their bad and need to l2p? I get what I give. If kids want to come here and pick apart me and my raid then they shit in return. REally it was my fault for posting any of my information. Dumbest thing I ever did on this fourm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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