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  1. #1401
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The issue is that if I'm busy moving from a bit of dmg then I'm not healing that dmg. It divides my focus up between having to run and avoid that dmg and automatically puts me at a defecit as a healer. Theirs only so much shit I can pay attention to. I can't divide my focus up a million ways and be asked to do any of those things effectively. If I move out of dmg I should not take that dmg because otherwise I'm not gonna do as good a job healing that dmg because my focus is set on constantly running an obstacle course, dodging shiit left right and center.
    I was curious about this because there have been normal mode fights in the past where the raid took unavoidable raid damage while having to move. Have those been out of place in the past as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    They don't make up a majorioty of the guilds in the game. You have to be kidding.
    They make up a majority of the guilds that end up killing heroic bosses. As you said, most guilds are not raiding guilds at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The number of mechanics are actually greater and their impact is far more detrimental. We killed ULduar in a week. We weren't overgeared and we only raided one more day than we do now. The players (by and large) haven't changed. Their still just as good. This raid is off the fucking wall in terms of difficulty and I have a hard time understand why everyone is defending this.
    Most of the normal modes in WotLK were quite probably easier than the ToT normal modes. One of the problems is that as time goes on steps need to be taken in order to keep raiding fresh, interesting, and adequately challenging. Modern players would likely destroy Ulduar in comparison to how they fared back in the days. Having to balance between this and making too hard normal mode content can be tricky.

    As I pointed out previously, I think that most of the fights in ToT are appropriately challenging and the instance simply lacks a gradual beginning. Not only would the early bosses serve as a starting point for the raiders, but the loot would also help to gear them up. The item levels have jumped massively from T14 and even few upgrades will bring forth visible results.

  2. #1402
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Sad if random "kids" are smarter than you and can actually chew bubble gum and walk through content while you whine here instead of learning and getting better.
    Yes it's all about being "smarter". You are everything that is wrong with world of warcraft and the best thing that could happen to the game is that people like you leave it.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #1403
    Quote Originally Posted by discmeedel View Post
    Even though i didnt like how he put it either, you still cant neglect that the fact is true and to be honest. Anyone quitting the game because they get insulted once by someone is just silly because if you are one of those players that have no clue of what they are doing there are players that are nice to them and want to help them out, its just that the douchy ones are easier to identify. Also as a matter of fact you are also acting a lot like a douche yourself which makes some of us that just want to help also look at bad, so please as i usually say to my guildies, learn to take constructive criticism or let your stubbornness kill your fun in the game.
    Trying to be tactful for a few posts is fine but when someone looks for someone to blame, it is sad. They can look at their numbers which he wont link because he knows people would tear it apart finding the reason for the difficulty they are having there. Instead he whines about blizzard blaming them for their bad play or horrid raid comp or playing with bad friends. People choose if they progress and how fast by their raid comp, who they play with and the numbers they put up as a raid.

    There is no one else to blame, just themselves.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes it's all about being "smarter". You are everything that is wrong with world of warcraft and the best thing that could happen to the game is that people like you leave it.
    Wrath babies were the start of the downfall of progression raiding. Whiners like yourself sit in a forum crying about how hard something is. You can go get better, you can mini/max, read on a fight, look at your logs seeing what people are dying to, their dps, heals, tanks standing in stuff, what arent people interrupting. A million things that YOU could do that would make you better instead of whining calling people "kids" in a forum.

  4. #1404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    I was curious about this because there have been normal mode fights in the past where the raid took unavoidable raid damage while having to move. Have those been out of place in the past as well?



    They make up a majority of the guilds that end up killing heroic bosses. As you said, most guilds are not raiding guilds at all.



    Most of the normal modes in WotLK were quite probably easier than the ToT normal modes. One of the problems is that as time goes on steps need to be taken in order to keep raiding fresh and interesting. Modern players would likely destroy Ulduar in comparison to how they fared back in the days. Having to balance between this and making too hard normal mode content can be challenging.

    As I pointed out previously, I think that most of the fights in ToT are appropriately challenging and the instance simply lacks a gradual beginning. Not only would the early bosses serve as a starting point for the raiders, but the loot would also help to gear them up. The item levels have jumped massively from T14 and even few upgrades will bring forth visible results.
    No but unavoidable in past tiers was just unavoidable. Now you can avoid being killed but you can't avoid that dmg. The unavoidable dmg in previous tiers didn't also kill you at the same time immediately if you didn't run from it. Like Bethilac. Bethilac has a rampage phase as well. That's unavoidable but you can heal through it and don't have to run from it. Meg the dmg you have to run from because it will insta gib you but when you from it you take the dmg anyway. I have ZERO problem with unavoidable dmg. I have problems with being asked to run from something and still taking dmg from that something.


    It seems contradictory to say most of the fights are appropriately challenging but the instance lacks a gradual beginning. The fights can't be appropriately challenging if theirs no gradation. They are just HARD. I agree about the item levels as well but that's another whole ball of wax.
    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Wrath babies were the start of the downfall of progression raiding. Whiners like yourself sit in a forum crying about how hard something is. You can go get better, you can mini/max, read on a fight, look at your logs seeing what people are dying to, their dps, heals, tanks standing in stuff, what arent people interrupting. A million things that YOU could do that would make you better instead of whining calling people "kids" in a forum.
    You know I could give you the full resume but what's the point. You've labeled me a wrath baby anyway. I could certainly do alot better but so could the developers. I know what I need to do and I don't need forum children telling me otherwise. That doesn't exempt me from critiquing the developers and the over tuned content. I'm not giving up on the raid either fyi I'm still raiding in it.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-20 at 08:42 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #1405
    Originally Posted by Glorious Leader
    They don't make up a majorioty of the guilds in the game. You have to be kidding.
    They make up a majority of the guilds that end up killing heroic bosses. As you said, most guilds are not raiding guilds at all.

    That is part of the problem, 10 people in a raid group doesnt make a raiding guild.

  6. #1406
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    I don't consider normals a roll over.. 7 weeks in and we got 6/12 bosses dead through wipes and allot of reading up! It's by no means a roll-over but to say things are overturned when sticking your head in the sand and not trying all the options / looking why your failing is laughable!

    I'm sorry but some one saying they chose the strat that is akin to standing in fire so dps dont't have to move so they can do a better rotation to up dps and healers just have to heal it and then complaining it's overturned is crazy! And yes the G>R>G>R strat of mag is exactly that... we will take more dmg to do less movement and out heal it to burn it down.... so in essence the same as standing in fire and not moving and healing through it to avoid the motion mechanic of getting out of bad shit!
    No, you consider current normal challenging, and nerfed current normals a roll over. 605 of the raiders would consider those nerfed current normals challenging, and current normals are just impossible for them.

  7. #1407
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No but unavoidable in past tiers was just unavoidable. Now you can avoid being killed but you can't avoid that dmg. The unavoidable dmg in previous tiers didn't also kill you at the same time immediately if you didn't run from it. Like Bethilac. Bethilac has a rampage phase as well. That's unavoidable but you can heal through it and don't have to run from it. Meg the dmg you have to run from because it will insta gib you but when you from it you take the dmg anyway. I have ZERO problem with unavoidable dmg. I have problems with being asked to run from something and still taking dmg from that something.



    It seems contradictory to say most of the fights are appropriately challenging but the instance lacks a gradual beginning. The fights can't be appropriately challenging if theirs no gradation. They are just HARD. I agree about the item levels as well but that's another whole ball of wax.
    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:40 PM ----------



    You know I could give you the full resume but what's the point. You've labeled me a wrath baby anyway. I could certainly do alot better but so could the developers. I know what I need to do and I don't need forum children telling me otherwise. That doesn't exempt me from critiquing the developers and the over tuned content. I'm not giving up on the raid either fyi I'm still raiding in it.
    So link your logs and lets see what is wrong then you can fix it. Odds are you wont do that.

  8. #1408
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Originally Posted by Glorious Leader
    They don't make up a majorioty of the guilds in the game. You have to be kidding.
    They make up a majority of the guilds that end up killing heroic bosses. As you said, most guilds are not raiding guilds at all.

    That is part of the problem, 10 people in a raid group doesnt make a raiding guild.
    Again I could give you the entire resume but go back through the forum and look through for the WoL from my guild. They're all good players. We left alot of folks behind this tier. I'm not sure why I keep responding to you though. Your posts reek of elitism.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    So link your logs and lets see what is wrong then you can fix it. Odds are you wont do that.
    I did actually, you can go back earlier and take a look see. It was the stupidest thing I ever did. Kids in forums just pull you apart and ignore your arguments. Like I said I know what I hve to do better and my guild is always working to do better. We're not quitting and we've all refused to quit even though this tier is CLEARLY OVERTUNED FOR NORMALS. That doesn't mean I can't critique the developers and their inability to understand what normal means.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-20 at 08:48 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #1409
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Like Bethilac. Bethilac has a rampage phase as well. That's unavoidable but you can heal through it and don't have to run from it.
    On Beth'tilac the fire pools from the webs come at the same time as the unavoidable damage, though they are quite ignorable. Lord Rhyolith also makes the players move from the fire lines while there is constant AoE ticking. I really don't see the mechanics themselves being the issue, but rather the numbers involved if anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It seems contradictory to say most of the fights are appropriately challenging but the instance lacks a gradual beginning. The fights can't be appropriately challenging if theirs no gradation. They are just HARD. I agree about the item levels as well but that's another whole ball of wax.
    With "appropriately challenging" I meant that I feel like the difficulty properly resembles that of normal mode encounters, and that if there are issues with the design then they are elsewhere. If the phrase in question was extended to "appropriately challenging for the position", I might shift my opinion. Placing some of the bosses at a later point in the instance and making the gearing easier would help to alleviate the issues and speed up the gradual nerf on the later encounters.

    This said, the slow gearing might not be an issue at all if the developers are trying to encourage the players to try the heroic content of the previous tier before stepping into the normal modes of the new tier. Whether that is a good design is a whole another question.

  10. #1410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    At this rate we'll be lucky to kill lei shen before the next patch comes out. The item upgrades will help. I doubt we'll get any alts or under performing friends in the raid.

    Honestly I'm not asking for any of you to critique my raid and their ability. Their good. That's all you need to know. They were good in the past and if this raid tier wasn't so fucking off the wall we'd probably be 11/12 normal by now.[COLOR="red"]
    This is all conjecture and what ifs at this point though. I believe you that you cleared previous tiers quicker. Probably because you had more gear from the other previous tiers you cleared even quicker. I would also agree that a 496 raid had a HELL of a time the first few weeks in ToT... Like really bad. There were some really unforgiving timers, mechanics, health pools etc. *heres looking at you council 10m". We wiped almost a whole night just on council the first week and we were lucky enough to have ~500 ilvl going into ToT progression.

    But again, "Its too hard" is so subjective you are only welcoming argument. And saying "My raid is good thats all you need to know" is just asking people to pick you apart. Words like Good, hard, off the wall hard, the hard way, the easy way, compared to last tier.. all this stuff is going to be a personal opinion and differ greatly on the forums. In MY opinion, our raid had an easier time finishing normal mode ToT than Sha of Fear and/or Empress. But I had way more fun doing it.

    EDIT: I'm a little confused why we keep refrencing Firelands as a raid we want things to be tuned like. Overall, that wasn't a spectacular tier, followed by Dragon Soul which seems to have the reputation as being even worse. Every raid encounter is going to have something to dodge, something happening to tanks, something aoeing the raid down and possible buffs/dbuffs to manage. The quantity and frequency of these and how they are used is the tuning knob that should be used to seperate difficulty.

    As for the bosses this tier. I have NO clue why Twin Consorts is a tier boss right before Lei Shen which has NO tier. This baffles me. The Twins I see as the 2nd easiest boss in the instance to Jin'Rokh. Thinking back to bosses before end bosses as comparison in difficulty to their relative end bosses: Ambershaper, Elegon, Spine, Majordomo, (Brain farting the elemental council boss name before Chogall)... all quite a good ramp up to their End tier counterparts. Blizzard definitely missed the mark on that one.

    I think with a slight rearrangement of the bosses they could have alleviated a lot of this discussion.
    Last edited by royals; 2013-04-20 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Additional Thoughts
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  11. #1411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    On Beth'tilac the fire pools from the webs come at the same time as the unavoidable damage, though they are quite ignorable. Lord Rhyolith also makes the players move from the fire lines while there is constant AoE ticking. I really don't see the mechanics themselves being the issue, but rather the numbers involved if anything.
    The pools of fire didn't always come at the same time as the unavoidable dmg. The majority of the unavoidable dmg on H Bethliac was from her version of rampage at the end of the fight. Ember flare and meteor burn rarely happened at the same time and meteor burn was so small compared to the big green cloud of megara crap. A significant (majority?) of unavoidablde dmg from meg and tortos comes from the exact same mechanic that you have to avoid. Moving to avoid the pool for fire in bethilac resulted in NO DMG TAKEN . Moving to avoid green shit on Meg results in DMG TAKEN. Theirs a big difference. Asking someone to move from being killed by the exact same mechanic that gives out raid dmg just makes your healers constantly have to play catch up. Again I have alot to deal with and pay attention to as a healer. If I move to avoid being one shot by a mechanic (which absorbs my immediate attention when I see it coming) I shouldn't also be asked to raid heal at the same time. If it was seperate it would be one thing. But dodging an obstacle course while trying to 9 players alive is asking me to divide my focus up to much, especially when you combine it with all the other crap I have to pay attention to.

    I'm all for stuff to dodge. I'm all for one shot mechanics. I'm all for unavoidable dmg. I'm not for the combination of all of those into one mechanic. I mean I guess in heroic modes but certainly not in normals.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-20 at 09:15 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #1412
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Okay, but if you tune it so the bottom of that 75% can get through in the time you want, the top 30% of the 75% are going to just faceroll the shit out of it. It will be barley worth doing. Then they go onto heroics, but if heroics are tuned up like some in here want then im sure a good chunk of those will hit a wall because normals were so easy and heroics are super hard. Congratulations, you just covered up one rift by creating another.
    No, the top 30% have HEROIC raids, and right now, you are making Normal raids for 25% of people trying, heroic raids for around 20% and NOTHING to 75%

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 06:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by royals View Post
    I don't understand the "Cock block after Cock block" comment. Horridon initially was quite rough I will admit and pre-nerf council was difficult as well. But for our raid group once we passed council the next "Road block" was Durumu and then Iron Qon.
    So you dont understand the comment yet you admit that the 2ndand 3rd bosses were cock blocks...

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 06:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    Whatever the difficulty of the normal modes, the initial heroic modes especially can not be too far ahead. One of the purposes of normal mode raiding is to prepare people for the heroic modes. If you make the normals easier, it will indirectly affect the heroic designs. This is worth taking into consideration.
    No, this would actually improve. Right now, some heroic bosses are easier than some normal ones. That is wrong. Nerfing normal would actually give meaning to the first heroic bosses again, and would actually make jumping from Normal to Heroic a decision to be made, and not just "Oh, we finish NOrmals, lets start heroic since some bosses are easier than what we have already done"

    When you change the difficulty in a game, it should mean something, it should invovle a decision.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 06:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Learn2play? Learn your class. Sounds like a group of casuals actually had to use their brain for once and are now pouting. Go get better, read up on fights, look at peoples numbers i will bet ANYTHING that you raid isnt putting out the hps, dps, they should. I help some casual friends and each time i look at their logs, i see people doing horrible and they have doing it for weeks meaning they had tons of gear. Go look for someone else to blame for your piss poor play.
    You cant be so stubborn to say that 75% of people should Learn2Play instead of realizing that if 75% of people trying cant do something then that something is overtuned.

    Look at people numbers, 75% of the target audience (and i would say 90%, since heroic raiders are NOT the NOrmal difficulty target audience) is not finishing the tiers...

  13. #1413
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Look at people numbers, 75% of the target audience (and i would say 90%, since heroic raiders are NOT the NOrmal difficulty target audience) is not finishing the tiers...
    And where does this number come from? Going by wowprogress, there's roughly 50% completion rate on T14. T15 isn't even halfway done, so you can't tell "75% is not finishing the tiers". And that's even ignoring the fact that previous tier got nerfed so you can finish it easily now and it will probably be the same in 5.4. With people finishing earlier being awarded Feats of Strength - which pretty much indicates they did something special. But nah, 90% should do it.

  14. #1414
    The Patient royals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    So you dont understand the comment yet you admit that the 2ndand 3rd bosses were cock blocks...[COLOR="red"]
    If you read what I said... INITIALLY Horridon and Pre Nerf Council... This was before heavy tuning by Blizzard. Then the next road blocks were Iron Qon and Durumu. Durumu has since been nerfed as well. Having some checks in the instance is good so you can't just steam roll it. My question was "Block after block after block", every boss isn't horribly tuned or overly difficult. There are a few sticking points, but what raid doesn't have those?
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  15. #1415
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    And where does this number come from? Going by wowprogress, there's roughly 50% completion rate on T14. T15 isn't even halfway done, so you can't tell "75% is not finishing the tiers". And that's even ignoring the fact that previous tier got nerfed so you can finish it easily now and it will probably be the same in 5.4. With people finishing earlier being awarded Feats of Strength - which pretty much indicates they did something special. But nah, 90% should do it.
    Numbers are from wowprogress at the time 5.2 launched. Of course that now, with people getting 522 gear and with a 10% nerf more people finished it.,..

    The Feat of Strength thing was to calm down the special snowflakes whining about nmerfs being applied

  16. #1416
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Numbers are from wowprogress at the time 5.2 launched. Of course that now, with people getting 522 gear and with a 10% nerf more people finished it.,..

    The Feat of Strength thing was to calm down the special snowflakes whining about nmerfs being applied
    Aren't all achievement for this ? Feeling special ? Come on don't be that guy.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  17. #1417
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Aren't all achievement for this ? Feeling special ? Come on don't be that guy.

    They are, i was just pointing it out for the guy saying that since that achievement is there the content was not targeted for normal players to be downed before next expansion.

  18. #1418
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    They are, i was just pointing it out for the guy saying that since that achievement is there the content was not targeted for normal players to be downed before next expansion.
    Well yeah its always nice to have a "reward" for the effort you put in.

    And I can understand this logic, if there's a "rare" (and then unobtainable later) achievement for doing/killing something before a set date, its probably because its not targeted at everyone.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  19. #1419
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Well yeah its always nice to have a "reward" for the effort you put in.

    And I can understand this logic, if there's a "rare" (and then unobtainable later) achievement for doing/killing something before a set date, its probably because its not targeted at everyone.

    No, its because they want room so they can nerf things but they wanted to stop the special snowflakes whining.

    Remember one thing, the achievement intially was to kill the bosses before the NERFS, then Blizzard decided to try the item upgrade route as "nerfs" and se what happens, but initially the nerfs were going to be delivered BEFORE the next tier.

    Blizzard made a decision to not nerf T14 in the middle of it, and we are saying here that it was a mistake. And IMO, the mistake was to make the tiers so overtuned in the first place.

  20. #1420
    I can't wait to see what Glorious Leader thinks of Lei Shen. "I moved out of Thunderstruck but it still hit me for 200k!! Boss is overtuned. Blizzard nerf please."

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