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  1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It also depends when they get 5.3 out. ILVL upgrades will take alot of the bite out of those fights. But they weren't overtuned or nothing....
    Whats the point of raiding if there is no bite in the fights. If you can just walk in and half ass it, ignoring or half paying attention to the mechanics.

  2. #1442
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    How's ToT 8 months old ?
    It's not. The thread topic is wider than the aspect you happen to be fixated on at the time.
    Last edited by Deja Thoris; 2013-04-21 at 04:59 PM.

  3. #1443
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Whats the point of raiding if there is no bite in the fights. If you can just walk in and half ass it, ignoring or half paying attention to the mechanics.
    By now you should probably already know my response. The question I have to ask is why do you keep asking the same fucking moronic questions over and over again when you know the answer already? "Bite" is subjective and furthermore fights can have "bite" but not be this hard. IN otherwords the same fucking shit that's been said in this thread over and over again. You may not think it's hard but others do and BLIZZARD CAN DO A BETTER JOB OF FINDING FUCKING MEDIUM DIFFICULTY. Man it's like people have no memory.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #1444
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Whats the point of raiding if there is no bite in the fights. If you can just walk in and half ass it, ignoring or half paying attention to the mechanics.
    If you aren't very good at raiding, you aren't half assing it even if you get to stand in stuff etc

    You are doing your best. it's just that the game is changed to let you do your best and win, not do your best and lose.
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  5. #1445
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    S
    As for T14, I'm not sure what was needed. But if those people have quit playing then we don't need to worry about them now right?
    Compare same timeframe between t14 and t15 in numebrs of 1st 3rd and 5th boss kills and see a big dip between them . now think for a minute and really is there no reason to be worried ? this is most of the difference between those numbers just gave up and stick to lfr for now.

  6. #1446
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    By now you should probably already know my response. The question I have to ask is why do you keep asking the same fucking moronic questions over and over again when you know the answer already? "Bite" is subjective and furthermore fights can have "bite" but not be this hard. IN otherwords the same fucking shit that's been said in this thread over and over again. You may not think it's hard but others do and BLIZZARD CAN DO A BETTER JOB OF FINDING FUCKING MEDIUM DIFFICULTY. Man it's like people have no memory.
    No I just think that your idea of "medium" is so easy just about anyone can do it. And like I have said a bunch, I don't think raiding is for everyone. I agree there is a gap between LFR and Normal, but I think that's a good thing. So yes, I'm an elitist. I don't want the "masses" normal raiding unless they can handle it. Why should the content I enjoy get nerfed all to hell because a bunch of unskilled people can't hack it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 11:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If you aren't very good at raiding, you aren't half assing it even if you get to stand in stuff etc

    You are doing your best. it's just that the game is changed to let you do your best and win, not do your best and lose.
    Ha. Sometimes your "best" isn't good enough.

  7. #1447
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    No I just think that your idea of "medium" is so easy just about anyone can do it. And like I have said a bunch, I don't think raiding is for everyone. I agree there is a gap between LFR and Normal, but I think that's a good thing. So yes, I'm an elitist. I don't want the "masses" normal raiding unless they can handle it. Why should the content I enjoy get nerfed all to hell because a bunch of unskilled people can't hack it.
    Like wise your idea of medium so hard that apparently next to no one is doing it and everyone is being driven to lfr. Sooooooooooooooooooooooo where does that leave us? Well clearly the gap is to big between lfr and normal and should be shrunk. The thing is your already done normals so what the fuck do you care if they nerf it for folks that can hack it? How long did it take you to clear normals?

    Unfortunately you can't be an elitist when the world around you begins to decay. Nor can the developers continue to serve and cater you to this degree because you are an apparent shrinking minority. Enjoy it while you can
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-21 at 05:09 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #1448
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    No I just think that your idea of "medium" is so easy just about anyone can do it.
    Well yeah, ofc it should be. For normal to be normal, the centre of the bell curve should be the target base.
    And like I have said a bunch, I don't think raiding is for everyone. I agree there is a gap between LFR and Normal, but I think that's a good thing. So yes, I'm an elitist. I don't want the "masses" normal raiding unless they can handle it. Why should the content I enjoy get nerfed all to hell because a bunch of unskilled people can't hack it.
    Because you have HC modes and they (currently) have nothing.


    Ha. Sometimes your "best" isn't good enough.
    And where that line falls is an entirely arbitary one decided at blizz HQ. They could put the line way past anything you can achieve - leaving you with just LFR to play with. Would that be fair?
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  9. #1449
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Like wise your idea of medium so hard that apparently next to no one is doing it and everyone is being driven to hard mode. Sooooooooooooooooooooooo where does that leave us? Well clearly the gap is to big between lfr and normal and should be shrunk. The thing is your already done normals so what the fuck do you care if they nerf it for folks that can hack it? How long did it take you to clear normals?

    Unfortunately you can't be an elitist when the world around you begins to decay. Nor can the developers continue to serve and cater you to this degree because you are an apparent shrinking minority. Enjoy it while you can
    We are 11/12 atm. So we are not done with normals. The best way to judge your own skill is by comparison to others. A school example. If I get an A, but the class average was an A as well, whoopty fucking dooo. But if I get a C, but the class average is an F, nice... I just beat alot of people. The only real measure we have in this world is how good we are relative to others. Without others to compare to, you have no point of reference. If I complete something but then its difficulty level gets nerfed all to hell, how can I judge my own place in the curve.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 11:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Well yeah, ofc it should be. For normal to be normal, the centre of the bell curve should be the target base.


    Because you have HC modes and they (currently) have nothing.



    And where that line falls is an entirely arbitary one decided at blizz HQ. They could put the line way past anything you can achieve - leaving you with just LFR to play with. Would that be fair?
    I would try my damnedest and if I couldn't hack it, I would go do something else. Not whine that the system is too hard.

  10. #1450
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    We are 11/12 atm. So we are not done with normals. The best way to judge your own skill is by comparison to others. A school example. If I get an A, but the class average was an A as well, whoopty fucking dooo. But if I get a C, but the class average is an F, nice... I just beat alot of people. The only real measure we have in this world is how good we are relative to others. Without others to compare to, you have no point of reference. If I complete something but then its difficulty level gets nerfed all to hell, how can I judge my own place in the curve.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 11:15 AM ----------



    I would try my damnedest and if I couldn't hack it, I would go do something else. Not whine that the system is too hard.
    That isn't the best way to judge or determine what should constitute normal raiding though. LIke your example is just to narrow. Your class may have gotten an F and you got a C but every other class may have gotten a B and the national average may be an A guess what that means? I agree without others to compare to you have no point of reference but your point of reference is so completely narrow that it may as well be ZERO. You completed most of the raid prior to any nerfs so you can judge your own skill fairly well I should think especially compared to what the statistics and figures are saying. Furthemore I'm not sure why it really matters to you what everyone else is doing.

    You'd go do lfr if normal was to hard. Now you know why everyone went to do lfr. Normal is to hard.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #1451
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I would try my damnedest and if I couldn't hack it, I would go do something else. Not whine that the system is too hard.
    That's what everyone else does too.

    It's why you see threads like "where have all the raiders gone" and this one. it's also why you see nerfs - people don't moan, they quit. The nerfs are to try and stop the leavers and bring some back.
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  12. #1452
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post

    You'd go do lfr if normal was to hard. Now you know why everyone went to do lfr. Normal is to hard.
    Cool. Lets just leave it at that then. :P Can't they stay in LFR?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 11:30 AM ----------

    Meh. Personally I don't care if people leave. I know blizzard does, but im not them. WoW is in the last half of its life anyway, so I hope they keep the difficulty the same and when it does finally die. I'll find something else to play.
    Last edited by cabyio; 2013-04-21 at 05:48 PM.

  13. #1453
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Sure. I personally don't think that the last round of nerfs were needed, but they are done already so... no reason to cry over spilled milk.

    As for T14, I'm not sure what was needed. But if those people have quit playing then we don't need to worry about them now right?

    What specifically in T15 do you think still needs nerfed?
    Of course we need to worry about them.

    Blizzard knows that the people that leave dont always leave forever, and that if they change the things that were wrong, those subs may come back.

    Durumu and quon still needs nerfs, Lei Shen needs nerfs, because is hard even for a last boss.

    Tortos may use a nerf, specially since its way unfair for some healers.

    Then in one month they can see if there is something blocking too many people.

    By the way, the NEED to nerf the last bosses of HoF. Garalon is ok now, but the other 3 still require nerfs IMO, they are blocking too many people for an old tier (i know many guilds still attempting and failing to finish it).

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 07:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    Based on my experience some of the normal mode fights (Lei Shen) are more complex than some of the heroic modes (Jin'rokh), but the mechanics of the normal mode fights are still more lenient. That said, the more geared you are the easier the numbers fights become in comparison to the mechanics fights. I think ToT is mostly well designed in regards of the transition from the normals to the heroics.
    And i disagree. People killing twin consorts N will wipe a lot before killing Lei Shen N. People that had killed Lei Shen N will kin Junrohk H pretty fast.

    The transition is non existant, there is no decision to be made, you killed Lei Shen Normal, you WILL kill H Jinrohk in a few wipes, less wipes than the ones it took to kill Lei Shen Normal.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 07:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Whats the point of raiding if there is no bite in the fights. If you can just walk in and half ass it, ignoring or half paying attention to the mechanics.
    You dont understand. Fights that have a "bite" to your group, are almost IMPOSSIBLE for average raiders.

    Fights that have a "bite" for average raiders (which are a lot more than your group) would be a cakewalk for your group.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 07:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    We are 11/12 atm. So we are not done with normals. The best way to judge your own skill is by comparison to others. A school example. If I get an A, but the class average was an A as well, whoopty fucking dooo. But if I get a C, but the class average is an F, nice... I just beat alot of people. The only real measure we have in this world is how good we are relative to others. Without others to compare to, you have no point of reference. If I complete something but then its difficulty level gets nerfed all to hell, how can I judge my own place in the curve.
    The A is not finishing Normals, the A is heroic.

    Now if you require a C to pass the course, but only 20% of the students get it and the rest gets an F, i'm sorry to tell you this, but its not the studetns fault. Either you failed to teach them, ir you made the tests too hard.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-04-21 at 10:47 PM.

  14. #1454
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Now you know why everyone went to do lfr. Normal is to hard.
    That's not why.
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  15. #1455
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    And i disagree. People killing twin consorts N will wipe a lot before killing Lei Shen N. People that had killed Lei Shen N will kin Junrohk H pretty fast.

    The transition is non existant, there is no decision to be made, you killed Lei Shen Normal, you WILL kill H Jinrohk in a few wipes, less wipes than the ones it took to kill Lei Shen Normal.
    I wasn't directly stating which one of the fights I feel is harder overall. Lei Shen likely takes longer to understand and is more complex overall, but the simple mechanics on Jin'rokh are still far more punishing. It will come down to the group which one is harder. The transition between the two I feel is appropiate. There isn't exactly a reason to discourage people from trying the easiest heroic modes once they're done with the hardest fight on normal. The challenge also ramps up soon after the initial step and the other normal mode fights are a step below Lei Shen.

  16. #1456
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    That's not why.
    Yes it is.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #1457
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    I wasn't directly stating which one of the fights I feel is harder overall. Lei Shen likely takes longer to understand and is more complex overall, but the simple mechanics on Jin'rokh are still far more punishing. It will come down to the group which one is harder. The transition between the two I feel is appropiate. There isn't exactly a reason to discourage people from trying the easiest heroic modes once they're done with the hardest fight on normal. The challenge also ramps up soon after the initial step and the other normal mode fights are a step below Lei Shen.
    Again, after you kill twin consorts the next step is lei shen, which is a big jump and it will take you many wipes.

    Once you get Lei Shen, you will kill Jinrohk very fast, because its easier than Lei Shen, you jsut need to get the feel of the fight.

    The transition not only is innapropiate, is non existant. You are actually killing an easier fight. Yes, you will wipe a couple of times untill you tune your strategy, but that will be very simple after doing Lei Shen N.

    I am not talking about discouraging, i am talking about being a jump up, something that involves a decision.

    The challenge doesnt ramp up that much, because you can choose the order in Heroic. H Ji Kun is not harder than Lei Shen N either.

    The thing is, the easiest heroic difficulties are easier than harder heroic ones. This was seen very clearly in T14, where some people that couldnt finish HoF had many MSV heroics completed.

  18. #1458
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes it is.
    No, it really isn't.

    I'll wager that there are a significant number of LFR players who have simply never set foot in a normal because they don't care about it. In fact, I'll say that that number is higher than the amount of players who feel that LFR is their only option because normals are too hard.

    Sadly, neither one of us has the actual data on such things, but you did say 'everyone', so I can guarantee that you're wrong.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  19. #1459
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    No, it really isn't.

    I'll wager that there are a significant number of LFR players who have simply never set foot in a normal because they don't care about it. In fact, I'll say that that number is higher than the amount of players who feel that LFR is their only option because normals are too hard.

    Sadly, neither one of us has the actual data on such things, but you did say 'everyone', so I can guarantee that you're wrong.
    Yes, it really is.

    I'll wager that difficulty of content as well as the lack of any serious or good catch up mechanic has created such a massive barrier to entry for players who would otherwise have tried normal raiding. So much so that they simply go to the most accessible and easy content available to them. LFR.

    Sadly, neither one of us has the actual data on such things, but you didn't clarify and simple said no it isn't, so I can guarantee that it is not NO unequivocally.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-22 at 03:17 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #1460
    Pls close this thread. It has completely no purpose - it is not on the B-net forums and crying for even more nerfs for a raid will not reach Blizzard's ears if you post here.

    Just pointless arguing back and forth with inflammatory posts from both sides.

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