Holy mother 10man nerf

[Halifax]

Again, they are easy, once you have the basics covered. Only heroics require time and dedication beyond that.

I find this hard to believe. My fairly casual 10 man group is made up primarily of what I would above average players (We've all completed gold challenge modes, we've raided before except for a couple of people who have caught up reasonably quick, a few of us have gotten ranked parses on WoL and the people who haven't have come close) and we are finding tier 14 normal to be very challenging.

We fucking destroyed tier 14 normal. Tore it to shreds, except for Elegon, I don't think any boss took more than 5-10 pulls, and that was maybe 15-20 at most, because we were doing the fight totally wrong without knowing it. We only did 3 heroics in Tier 14, but that was just from a lack of trying. We started raiding very late in 5.2, so we only had a few weeks.

We then killed Jin'Rokh on our 3rd pull. Wiped to Horridon 40 times. Wiped to council about 30 times. Tortos about 35 times. We got Megaera and Ji'kun down in like 10 tries each, and should have Durumu this week after a couple of low HP% wipes last raid. You can go ahead and call us terrible, but I know we're not. We're not amazing, we lack some consistency, but based on our Tier 14 performance, it seems like the amount of wiping we're doing in ToT is slightly out of whack.

If ToT Normal was supposed to be a challenge progression from tier 14 Normal, they missed the mark by a long shot.

[Osmeric]

He has 140 letters limit, right? Are you seriously expecting anything elaborated on a tweet? I don't even see where he is "acting" as if it is balanced. He puts two things into one tweet. Obviously this issue could be adressed in an entire dev watercooler and not be resolved.

Street has a history of sugarcoating the tuning issue. In his Cataclysm post mortem, he stated

I don’t believe that the instances were too hard; it’s obvious there are players who enjoy that content.

This shows exactly the same logical error, ignoring the numbers involved to present a "false balance". Taken at face value, that comment implies that if there are even two players who enjoyed them, then Cata 5 mans weren't too hard!

[Deleted]

I find this hard to believe. My fairly casual 10 man group is made up primarily of what I would above average players (We've all completed gold challenge modes, we've raided before except for a couple of people who have caught up reasonably quick, a few of us have gotten ranked parses on WoL and the people who haven't have come close) and we are finding tier 14 normal to be very challenging.

We fucking destroyed tier 14 normal. Tore it to shreds, except for Elegon, I don't think any boss took more than 5-10 pulls, and that was maybe 15-20 at most, because we were doing the fight totally wrong without knowing it. We only did 3 heroics in Tier 14, but that was just from a lack of trying. We started raiding very late in 5.2, so we only had a few weeks.

We then killed Jin'Rokh on our 3rd pull. Wiped to Horridon 40 times. Wiped to council about 30 times. Tortos about 35 times. We got Megaera and Ji'kun down in like 10 tries each, and should have Durumu this week after a couple of low HP% wipes last raid. You can go ahead and call us terrible, but I know we're not. We're not amazing, we lack some consistency, but based on our Tier 14 performance, it seems like the amount of wiping we're doing in ToT is slightly out of whack.

If ToT Normal was supposed to be a challenge progression from tier 14 Normal, they missed the mark by a long shot.

If the harder bosses are taking you 30 wipes, I don't see how that's bad tuning. After all, if your intention is to raid normals and leave at that, and you expect to have 3-5 pulls per boss... Well, you would have finished the whole tier in a couple of weeks, raiding ~12-15 hours total. One would expect a normal only guild to take several weeks, advancing slowly yet having lots of saves to spare before the new raid comes in.

[Glorious Leader]

It does illustrate something I hve been finding. Plenty of people who used to be able to raid at the sharp end (or could just about get by in normal mode) are struggling as of late because the difficulty has ramped up. They haven't changed, their abilities capped out back in wrath of TBC or whatever at which time the content was tolerable for them - but the game has started to grow more and more tricky.

One issue I think is the difficulty of communicating this to people who haven't experiences it. It's like an old sportsman who can still perform to near his peak standard, and his standard was shit hot back in the day but modern methods and training and insights mean his up to date equivalents completely annihilate him and his old standard is now mediocre at best.

It wasn't even that long ago. I was raiding cata perfectly fine. This tier is just off the wall fucking stupid as as healer. I keep going back to it but even H bethilac was easier to heal. Honestly I had less trouble in that. Were talking about NORMALS here to for christs sake.

[Crashdummy]

It shouldnt, I dont propose to turn leveling into a punitive and gruesome experience. Highlighting how good and useful are that new cd you got, how to do a simple but effective rotation while dodging shit would if anything make leveling more fun.

Again, they are easy, once you have the basics covered. Only heroics require time and dedication beyond that.

That would mean honogeneize cds to be given to every class at the exact same level, which i think is not happenign right now.

And again, no, they are nto easy, even after you have the basics covered.

Some heroics are easier than some Normal fights. BOTH require time and dedication that most people just dont have.

The difference between Normal and Heroic is not as big as it should to be honest.

More people killed Heroic Stone Guards in the previous tier than Empress N

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 12:13 PM ----------

I'd say that there is nothing wrong with encouraging people to use certain abilities, or even just reminding them of their existence. It doesn't have to be something compulsory or even make the leveling experience any harder; in some cases it can even make the leveling easier or more fun.

In theory this sounds right, but if you dont "force" the use of that ability, most people will just not use it and just brute force whatever is needed to be done.

And if you do "force" the use, then you need to make an homogeneization of all clases so that every class has the tools you are "forcing" and that they are at their disposal at the same level.

[cabyio]

That would mean honogeneize cds to be given to every class at the exact same level, which i think is not happenign right now.

And again, no, they are nto easy, even after you have the basics covered.

Some heroics are easier than some Normal fights. BOTH require time and dedication that most people just dont have.

The difference between Normal and Heroic is not as big as it should to be honest.

More people killed Heroic Stone Guards in the previous tier than Empress N

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 12:13 PM ----------



In theory this sounds right, but if you dont "force" the use of that ability, most people will just not use it and just brute force whatever is needed to be done.

And if you do "force" the use, then you need to make an homogeneization of all clases so that every class has the tools you are "forcing" and that they are at their disposal at the same level.

First of all, most classes have access to the basic types of cool downs. Damage reduction, speed increase, etc. There are a few gaps but usually its balanced out by other abilities. So they are already as homogenized as they can be without being the same damn thing. So yes I think they could force the use of certain abilities in questing or other things to teach people how to actually use all of their character instead of just 3 buttons.

Also, if someone doesn't have the time and dedication to complete something, they shouldn't do it.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 10:19 AM ----------

It wasn't even that long ago. I was raiding cata perfectly fine. This tier is just off the wall fucking stupid as as healer. I keep going back to it but even H bethilac was easier to heal. Honestly I had less trouble in that. Were talking about NORMALS here to for christs sake.

What about fights like Atramedes where you running around avoiding the sound disks and the beam o death. That's a ton of moving if I remember correctly.

Also, I heal... and for the most part have no issues with T15 or T14 for that matter.

[Deleted]

What about fights like Atramedes where you running around avoiding the sound disks and the beam o death. That's a ton of moving if I remember correctly.

You mean the boss that got soloed by hunters?

[cabyio]

You mean the boss that got soloed by hunters?

While it was current content?

[Deleted]

While it was current content?

Yeah. Minelol or whoever that amazing DK is named showed the way, iirc.

[Crashdummy]

First of all, most classes have access to the basic types of cool downs. Damage reduction, speed increase, etc. There are a few gaps but usually its balanced out by other abilities. So they are already as homogenized as they can be without being the same damn thing. So yes I think they could force the use of certain abilities in questing or other things to teach people how to actually use all of their character instead of just 3 buttons.

Also, if someone doesn't have the time and dedication to complete something, they shouldn't do it.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 10:19 AM ----------



What about fights like Atramedes where you running around avoiding the sound disks and the beam o death. That's a ton of moving if I remember correctly.

Also, I heal... and for the most part have no issues with T15 or T14 for that matter.

No, not everyone has access to damage reduction cds, and they dont get them even near the same level. So no, you cant force the use, because many classes cant do it.

Anyway, the problem is not that people doesnt know they have a damage reduction cd, or any other basic skills, so it wont fix anything.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 01:51 PM ----------

While it was current content?

Yes, lol. Healing atramedes wasnt a problem, since there were almost no damage there, and 90% of the damage was avoidable, which just doesnt happen here.

[cabyio]

Yeah. Minelol or whoever that amazing DK is named showed the way, iirc.

Huh, crazy. Do you think that this kind of thing should happen?

No, not everyone has access to damage reduction cds, and they dont get them even near the same level. So no, you cant force the use, because many classes cant do it.

Anyway, the problem is not that people doesnt know they have a damage reduction cd, or any other basic skills, so it wont fix anything.

What classes do not have some sort of dmg reduction/shield/selfheal?

Yes, lol. Healing atramedes wasnt a problem, since there were almost no damage there, and 90% of the damage was avoidable, which just doesnt happen here.

Right. Isn't it boring as hell for healers if no one is taking any damage? I've only healed in MoP, have been DPS and Tank in the past. I constantly have to be on the ball when im healing MoP. If I wasn't I would just be sitting around waiting for someone to take damage, boring, no?

[Odina]

This tier is not about high HPS or DPS requierments and I believe that is where allot of the "its way harder" is actually comming from. Tellign some one to look up thre ortation, gt tehm gear and meet the dps check is way simpler than needing them to have situational awareness and better reactions!

Allot of the "it's way harder to heal" comes from people either standing in or not reacting to bad things. Another thing is the fights seem to have been tuned with the mindset that peopel are use to there class and know it well enough to use the tools at there disposal. However the AVG raider in normal's now days it looks liek they have forgotten all there tools... I don't knwo how many times I see logs of prot wars with no shattering throw use, hardly any or no intervien's cast, no demo shout useage etc etc and that is TANKS ffs not using there tools! A normal raid should be tuned for the players to know there class and use all the tools while heroics should be tuned not only for all tools to be used but used perfectly!

The main issue is most have stopped looking into strats / watching vids and in general don't review there logs. Normal should not = faceroll don't do your homework thats what LFR is! However it should not = pin point precision like heroics shoudl either... but having a hard time on kills then having a handfull of raiders half assing and not using all the tools should = the norm for normals as it should be NORMAL that they understand how to use there toon if they are raiding!

Again.. I will post this

My armory : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced
Our WOL from this past wed : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/thwxouhngwok5iob/
Yes thats 9 manning the bosses up to Ji-kun since one raider had not logged in yet and we just started pulling! It's not a hard tier per say if you understand the fights and peoepl understand how to use there toons! As well the casual argument for being bad has 0 merit as far as I'm ocncerned...we raid 4 hours a week... you don't get much more casual and still raid normals!

So far 9 times out of 10 the tier is only as hard as you make it on yourslef.... wont even get started on guilds trying to copy top end guild strats and not budging on the strat even though it's clearly not for them!

[Crashdummy]

This tier is not about high HPS or DPS requierments and I believe that is where allot of the "its way harder" is actually comming from. Tellign some one to look up thre ortation, gt tehm gear and meet the dps check is way simpler than needing them to have situational awareness and better reactions!

Allot of the "it's way harder to heal" comes from people either standing in or not reacting to bad things. Another thing is the fights seem to have been tuned with the mindset that peopel are use to there class and know it well enough to use the tools at there disposal. However the AVG raider in normal's now days it looks liek they have forgotten all there tools... I don't knwo how many times I see logs of prot wars with no shattering throw use, hardly any or no intercept's cast, no demo shout useage etc etc and that is TANKS ffs not using there tools! A normal raid should be tuned for the players to know there class and use all the tools while heroics should be tuned not only for all tools to be used but used perfectly!

The main issue is most have stopped looking into strats / watching vids and in general don't review there logs. Normal should not = faceroll don't do your homework thats what LFR is! However it should not = pin point precision like heroics shoudl either... but having a hard time on kills then having a handfull of raiders half assing and not using all the tools should = the norm for normals as it should be NORMAL that they understand how to use there toon if they are raiding!

Again.. I will post this

My armory : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced
Our WOL from this past wed : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/thwxouhngwok5iob/
Yes thats 9 manning the bosses up to Ji-kun since one raider had not logged in yet and we just started pulling! It's not a hard tier per say if you understand the fights and peoepl understand how to use there toons! As well the casual argument for being bad has 0 merit as far as I'm ocncerned...we raid 4 hours a week... you don't get much more casual and still raid normals!

So far 9/10 the tier is only as hard as you make it on yourslef.... wont even get started on guilds trying to copy top end guild strats and not budging on the strat even though it's clearly not for them!

Again, only 25% of people could complete T14.

Yes, we get it, its not hard for you, but the thing YOU dont understand, is that you belong to the top 25% skilled people in the world in this game in PVE aspects.

What we are saying is, Normals should be tuned for more than just the top 25%.

You are part of the elite, you belong to heroics, not normals.

[bals]

Huh, crazy. Do you think that this kind of thing should happen?

He did it when Firelands was out so atramedes had been nerfed some already (still same xpac though).
Fight took him ~42 minutes. If someone can concentrate that long and not mess up then yeah I have no problem with it.
It had more to do with how the boss worked and pets with hunter mechanics.

[Odina]

Again, only 25% of people could complete T14.

Yes, we get it, its not hard for you, but the thing YOU dont understand, is that you belong to the top 25% skilled people in the world in this game in PVE aspects.

What we are saying is, Normals should be tuned for more than just the top 25%.

You are part of the elite, you belong to heroics, not normals.

Heroics / part of the elite on 4 hours a week raiding? No just NO I do not belong to that group!

As well i would not say I'm top 25% skilled however this is a MMORPG and I put in time to try and learn from my mistakes and educate myself on my class / role / spec! You are supose to invest time to better yourself not just show up to the raid @ max level and expect it to be a pushover. There is more to it than just getting gear and that is what people seem to have forgotten or not learned!

Normals should be tuned for normal controll of your toon IE knowing how to play! If you don't knwo how to play you should run into a wall on raid bosses!

[cabyio]

Heroics / part of the elite on 4 hours a week raiding? No just NO I do not belong to that group!

As well i would not say I'm top 25% skilled however this is a MMORPG and I put in time to try and learn from my mistakes and educate myself on my class / role / spec! You are supose to invest time to better yourself not just show up to the raid @ max level and expect it to be a pushover. There is more to it than just getting gear and that is what people seem to have forgotten or not learned!

Normals should be tuned for normal controll of your toon IE knowing how to play! If you don't knwo how to play you should run into a wall on raid bosses!

^^^^ Bravo!

[Glorious Leader]

What about fights like Atramedes where you running around avoiding the sound disks and the beam o death. That's a ton of moving if I remember correctly.

Also, I heal... and for the most part have no issues with T15 or T14 for that matter.

Really? How many times do I have to scream this before people get it. If you dodged shit on atramedes YOU DIDN'T TAKE FUCKING DAMAGE FROM THAT SHIT. If you dodge shit on megara YOU STILL TAKE FUCKING DMG FROM MEGARA. I don't know, it's like do you people even read?

H bethilac had all kinds of heroic dmg. Wasn't boring
H baelroc was challenging for healers BUT DIDN'T RELY ON PUNISHING YOU EVEN IF YOU MOVE OUT OF SHIT.

The point is that being a healer is already a pretty stressful and busy job. HAVING TO "BE ON THE FUCKING BALL" ALL THE TIME JUST MAKES THIS WORSE. I was fine healing normals and even heroics because I could stop at some point and wasn't constantly running around trying to catch up because the raid still took dmg and i was to busy fucking dodging flaming balls of bullshit. I was still busy enough to be challenged and not bored but I wasn't OVERWHELMED.

[cabyio]

Really? How many times do I have to scream this before people get it. If you dodged shit on atramedes YOU DIDN'T TAKE FUCKING DAMAGE FROM THAT SHIT. If you dodge shit on megara YOU STILL TAKE FUCKING DMG FROM MEGARA. I don't know, it's like do you people even read?

H bethilac had all kinds of heroic dmg. Wasn't boring
H baelroc was challenging for healers BUT DIDN'T RELY ON PUNISHING YOU EVEN IF YOU MOVE OUT OF SHIT.

The point is that being a healer is already a pretty stressful and busy job. HAVING TO "BE ON THE FUCKING BALL" ALL THE TIME JUST MAKES THIS WORSE. I was fine healing normals and even heroics because I could stop at some point and wasn't constantly running around trying to catch up because the raid still took dmg and i was to busy fucking dodging flaming balls of bullshit.

I'm not ignoring that you still take some (small) amount of damage. I'm saying its not an issue. And the only thing you take damage from regardless is the poison thing, and its not really a don't stand in it, its a move as far from it as you can, its meant to do raid wide damage, how much is up to you.

[Glorious Leader]

I'm not ignoring that you still take some (small) amount of damage. I'm saying its not an issue. And the only thing you take damage from regardless is the poison thing, and its not really a don't stand in it, its a move as far from it as you can, its meant to do raid wide damage, how much is up to you.

It's not small and when it hits with other shit it's usually a wipe. I.e cinders and green shit. Or on tortos rockfall and quake and turtle shell. It isn't fucking small and the bigger loss is the opportunity cost I lose cause i have to dodge shit that still fucking hits me anyway. It being meant to do raid wide dmg is fine, just don't also ask me to move from it as well because then I'm constantly behind.

I;m doing these fights on normal and we downed meg last week. Last pull of the night. Half the raid wiped. Screen shot at the end. You'd think we'd downed the last boss in the heroic tier or something. It's fucking horseshit and calling it the appropriate tuning is ignorant in the extreme.

[cabyio]

It's not small and when it hits with other shit it's usually a wipe. I.e cinders and green shit. Or on tortos rockfall and quake and turtle shell. It isn't fucking small and the bigger loss is the opportunity cost I lose cause i have to dodge shit that still fucking hits me anyway. It being meant to do raid wide dmg is fine, just don't also ask me to move from it as well because then I'm constantly behind.

I;m doing these fights on normal and we downed meg last week. Last pull of the night. Half the raid wiped. Screen shot at the end. You'd think we'd downed the last boss in the heroic tier or something. It's fucking horseshit and calling it the appropriate tuning is ignorant in the extreme.

It may still hit you, but it hits you for alot less than it would if you were standing right in the middle of it. And there are ways to mitigate it. For tortos when we have bats come during a quake we have the healers group on the bat tank and our DK pops a AMS so that we don't really have to worry about rockfalls right there while the bats are getting under control.