Holy mother 10man nerf

[Deleted]

We didnt magically pull it from our ass!

But erm you expected mr leader there too...you were even condescending towards him about it....

We wipped all night using the wrong strat. We sat back waited a week and during that week peopel thoguth of what was killing us. Then we talked about what we thoguth was killign us and came to a conclusion to try tossing in a blue head kill to help out our healers at the end.

is that not what raiding normals is about... figuring out strats, commign up against a boss and as a team figuring out how to kill it? If you want shit to just roll over without figuring out strats and what works for your team then LFR is one que away!

Now I am really confused. If that what normals are all about, why are you taking that away from mr leader by showing him what to do?

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 10:18 PM ----------

I disagree. I think a larger portion of "ability" is due to effort than natural skill. Not saying there isn't a natural element involved, just that effort goes a long way. The problem with most people is they are just not willing to put forth that effort.

I think we are really talking about a limit in peoples working memory. Some people can hold a dozen items of information in their short term memory, some only 3 or 4.

It's not going to change with effort.

[cabyio]

Again we didn't choose to make it a gear check, we chose to make it simpler. That's it. Again if the developers didn't intend for us to do it this way and we are circumventing mechanics then they ought not to let us do that. If they want to let us do it that way then they ought to tune it so that we can. It's not a genious design, it's simple just hard and punishing. It's not a "normal" design by any stretch, it's a heroic design.

So the game should never let you do something the wrong way?

And it is a viable strat, but only for those who have the gear to make it work.

[Odina]

But erm you expected mr leader there too...you were even condescending towards him about it....



Now I am really confused. If that what normals are all about, why are you taking that away from mr leader by showing him what to do?

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 10:18 PM ----------



I think we are really talking about a limit in peoples working memory. Some people can hold a dozen items of information in their short term memory, some only 3 or 4.

It's not going to change with effort.

I'm providing valid points to back up what I'm saying another part of raiding is going to see what others are doing and seing if you can also use that to your advantge. Thus by stating what helped us some one here could read it present it to there raid and perhaps that will help them. Gathering information is part of "figuring it out" thus I'm not sure where yoru confused but nice try on trying to turn my argument around on me

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:24 PM ----------

[QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880717][QUOTE=bobyboucher;20880680]

No we aren't choosing to make it a gear check, that was Blizzards design. We are choosing to avoid the needless complication and overwhelming stupid fucking mechanics that Blizzard puts on the boss. We choose to keep it simple in other words.

Yes because it's make the fight gloriously simple. It makes the fight a gear check which we can overcome a lot easier. Again if that strat wasn't intended to be a viable one, it ought not to be viable. If the developers intend that you can choose to do it that way then it ought to be tuned to a more approriate gear level.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:14 PM ----------




Again we didn't choose to make it a gear check, we chose to make it simpler. That's it. Again if the developers didn't intend for us to do it this way and we are circumventing mechanics then they ought not to let us do that. If they want to let us do it that way then they ought to tune it so that we can. It's not a genious design, it's simple just hard and punishing. It's not a "normal" design by any stretch, it's a heroic design.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:15 PM ----------



No we don't want shit to just roll over. Does nobody understand what medium difficulty is?

Again... it's not overtuned by your own defenition then. You are saying you are choosing the gear check method... but you may not have the gear for that check to be easy at this time. You say you want medium difficulty but are choosing a more difficult way that is made simpler with more gear...that you just don't have atm so it's harder atm (not overtuned), you can say you didn't choose to make it a gear check but the G>R strat is the gear check method and the reason why most overgeared groups ran it was it made the mechanical part simple as they overgeared it... since your not running in heroic gear from T14 you don't overgear it and as such chose to made it harder on yourself untill you get more gear!

[cabyio]

Oh no.....wait... no they didn't and choosing the right tacs is a rare skill in and of itself.

This may be true, its hard for me to judge as I am a programmer and that's what I'm good at. However I think that it is mitigated by the fact that you really only need one person like this in your raid.

[Glorious Leader]

So the game should never let you do something the wrong way?

And it is a viable strat, but only for those who have the gear to make it work.

Wait what? The game has always let you do things the wrong way. Are you kidding? Even if their was only ONE strat you could still do it the wrong way.

[cabyio]

I think we are really talking about a limit in peoples working memory. Some people can hold a dozen items of information in their short term memory, some only 3 or 4.

It's not going to change with effort.

I think this can be mitigated by things like DBM. Can't remember to watch for mechanics? You will when DBM jumps up in your face and reminds you about something.

[Tharkkun]

By managing to choose the right tactic out of the several hundred combinations that are available!

But that's a skill that everybody has, right? Every single raider looked at the list of abilities and just instantly got what they should do, didn't they?

Oh no.....wait... no they didn't and choosing the right tacs is a rare skill in and of itself.

No way, if they 9 man it they take a full dps out of the equation. Now if it's a hard DPS check due to gear like Mr leader is saying then being 1 man down would have screwed them. But obviously it doesn't because they do the proper strategy.

[Glorious Leader]

[QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880717]

Again... it's not overtuned by your own defenition then. You are saying you are choosing the gear check method... but you may not have the gear for that check to be easy at this time. You say you want medium difficulty but are choosing a more difficult way that is made simpler with more gear...that you just don't have atm so it's harder atm (not overtuned), you can say you didn't choose to make it a gear check but the G>R strat is the gear check method and the reason why most overgeared groups ran it was it made the mechanical part simple as they overgeared it... since your not running in heroic gear from T14 you don't overgear it and as such chose to made it harder on yourself untill you get more gear!

No I'm not choosing gear check method. Your labeling it as such but nobody told us that this was the gear check method and the developers didn't make such a distinction before or during this tier. We chose the simplest and most straightforward method. PERIOD. That's it. If that wasn't meant to be a viable strat then it should not be possible. If it is meant to be viable then it ought to be tuned properly. Doing the blue head doens't make it medium difficulty, it actually makes it fucking harder. The zerg rgrgrgrgr strat makes it as simple as possible.

[cabyio]

Wait what? The game has always let you do things the wrong way. Are you kidding? Even if their was only ONE strat you could still do it the wrong way.

I was referencing the below section of your quote.

That's it. Again if the developers didn't intend for us to do it this way and we are circumventing mechanics then they ought not to let us do that.

[Glorious Leader]

I was referencing the below section of your quote.

Please you know exactly what I meant. We cheese council and megara by purposely avoiding some of the mechanics that make the fight mechanically more difficult. If they didn't want us to do that then they ought not to have let us do that. Bosses let you fuck up all the time before and even when their was only ONE strat you could still not execute that strat correctly i.e do it the wrong way.

This is however entirely off tangent. However you want to square it the fights are to fucking hard for a normal raid. PERIOD. End of story.

[cabyio]

[QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880929]

No I'm not choosing gear check method. Your labeling it as such but nobody told us that this was the gear check method and the developers didn't make such a distinction before or during this tier. We chose the simplest and most straightforward method. PERIOD. That's it. If that wasn't meant to be a viable strat then it should not be possible. If it is meant to be viable then it ought to be tuned properly. Doing the blue head doens't make it medium difficulty, it actually makes it fucking harder. The zerg rgrgrgrgr strat makes it as simple as possible.

Complex does not necessarily equal hard.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 03:43 PM ----------

Please you know exactly what I meant. We cheese council and megara by purposely avoiding some of the mechanics that make the fight mechanically more difficult. If they didn't want us to do that then they ought not to have let us do that. Bosses let you fuck up all the time before and even when their was only ONE strat you could still not execute that strat correctly i.e do it the wrong way.

This is however entirely off tangent. However you want to square it the fights are to fucking hard for a normal raid. PERIOD. End of story.

Ahh, sorry got confused as to what you meant. I see now. You are saying that doing it the wrong way (cheesing) on some fights makes them easier, where on mergera it makes the gear part harder.

The definition of "normal raid" is not really set in stone, so no its not really the end of the story... sorry.

[Odina]

[QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880929]

No I'm not choosing gear check method. Your labeling it as such but nobody told us that this was the gear check method and the developers didn't make such a distinction before or during this tier. We chose the simplest and most straightforward method. PERIOD. That's it. If that wasn't meant to be a viable strat then it should not be possible. If it is meant to be viable then it ought to be tuned properly. Doing the blue head doens't make it medium difficulty, it actually makes it fucking harder. The zerg rgrgrgrgr strat makes it as simple as possible.

Both strats are viable...yet both have there strong and weak points!

One strat is viable where you can ignore the motion mechanic by outhealing and out dpsing the extra damage. It's not just the green shit etc Im talking about but there is also the fact the blue head will be STOMPING on your tank with extra damage due to never being killed and ramping up its + dmg buff and at the end when everyone is taking shit tons of dmg and the tank is getting beat it's going to put huge stain on healers. To overcome this your tank's need good gear and you need good healers to OVERCOOME the fact you are choosing to ignore the resetting dmg buff mechanic. Thus you are choosing to eat more dmg for the benefit of less mobility req. This is the reason we toss in ONE blue head kill in the mix so at the end the tanks arent being anihilated and healers can focus on the entire raid > tunel visioning almost dead tanks!

One strat you will need to move more and the fight may go on longer however overall dmg to your tanks will be lower due to decreased dmg buff on head and less gear will be needed by your tanks to soak the dmg as such less HPS is also needed to keep them up.

They are both viable they just have there positive and negatives. If one is too hard then you do the other if that ones too hard then do a mix etc etc!


Edit: I just thought of it and not killign the blue head is like wars standing in fire for more rage to do more dps back in the day! Sure the good guilds with great healers were able to pull it off but the avg guild with avg raiders would have flipped shit on the war for trying that shit! Not sure why it should be any different now!

[cabyio]

The real crux of it is, what is the appropriate % of players able to complete normals in time for the next raid (which isn't what Glorious even wants). Glorious said himself that he wants to be done by 5.3 and possibly try some heroics.

[Deleted]

I think this can be mitigated by things like DBM. Can't remember to watch for mechanics? You will when DBM jumps up in your face and reminds you about something.

You still have to remember the thing you are being warned about.

DBM actually adds another layer of complexity if it really is a memory issue.

[Glorious Leader]

[QUOTE=cabyio;20881018]

Complex does not necessarily equal hard.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 03:43 PM ----------



Ahh, sorry got confused as to what you meant. I see now. You are saying that doing it the wrong way (cheesing) on some fights makes them easier, where on mergera it makes the gear part harder.

The definition of "normal raid" is not really set in stone, so no its not really the end of the story... sorry.

Unfortunately no but I suspect we'll see easier raids in the future. Or bye bye normal raids. Or another difficulty added. GC said they would consider beer league raiding. So we'll see.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:51 PM ----------

The real crux of it is, what is the appropriate % of players able to complete normals in time for the next raid (which isn't what Glorious even wants). Glorious said himself that he wants to be done by 5.3 and possibly try some heroics.

As it stands now we'll have cleared Lei Shen close the 5.4, just under the wire. The guild did the same thing last tier also just under the wire. In previous raids we'd have been done normals and we'd have a few heroics down, hell in heroic firelands we'd have cleared pretty much all the normals by now. However the difficulty curve is off the fucking whack this raid so I doubt we'll do very many heroics if any. In fact I think I probaby will just take a break by the time we complete normals. I'm sure I'll be exhausted and had my fill of raiding fucking ToT.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:53 PM ----------

[QUOTE=cabyio;20881018]

Complex does not necessarily equal hard.

Actually yes it does. In any real sense of the word increasing complexity equal increasing difficulty. The strat where we ignore the head makes it simple as hell but isn't tuned properly.

[cabyio]

You still have to remember the thing you are being warned about.

DBM actually adds another layer of complexity if it really is a memory issue.

I'll buy this any time in your first 5-10 pulls of a boss. After that... you've been slapped by it enough it should be committed to your memory. Its like learning for a test. If you study (wipe) enough eventually your brain will hold on to all of the info.

[Glorious Leader]

I'll buy this any time in your first 5-10 pulls of a boss. After that... you've been slapped by it enough it should be committed to your memory. Its like learning for a test. If you study (wipe) enough eventually your brain will hold on to all of the info.

No not really. Because you also have to remember all your dps rotations and cooldowns and proper management of resources and pretty much everything this game throws at your way. Even if you study for months for the LSAT or MCAT you still don't remember everything. When raiding starts to feel like a job or even worse exam week I stop having fun.

What gets lost in all of this is that the normals have now moved so fucking far into heroic difficulty we are now talking and acting and suggesting that normals NORMALS NORMALS entail all of the above. NORMALS I want to stress this.

[Deleted]

I'll buy this any time in your first 5-10 pulls of a boss. After that... you've been slapped by it enough it should be committed to your memory. Its like learning for a test. If you study (wipe) enough eventually your brain will hold on to all of the info.

Not if we are talking about a hard cap on the short term memory, no.

If it was a list of numbers or something yes, but due to the interaction with other members it'll be a fuzzy function and therefore not learnable by rote.

[Tharkkun]

I honestly agree with the tactic we chose, and it did work for us. We kept it simple and zerged the fuck out of the boss. It made the fight a massive gear check but a gear check is in many respects easier to overcome especially when your raid has really good dps. If that isn't an intended strat though then they ought to not make it a viable one. if it is one they intend you to do (and imo it is the simplest one) then they ought to tune it as such.

So realistically you are making your raid team less intelligent by choosing to ignore mechanics. This is hurting you because when it comes time to learn multiple mechanics you can't slam your face against the wall and win. Don't coddle your raiders. Ask them to learn.

I wish my raid group had your problem. We can learn mechanics extremely well but not all our dps are on the same page.

[melodramocracy]

This shows exactly the same logical error, ignoring the numbers involved to present a "false balance". Taken at face value, that comment implies that if there are even two players who enjoyed them, then Cata 5 mans weren't too hard!

But there were players who enjoyed them. In fact, polls here have reflected that.