Holy mother 10man nerf

[Glorious Leader]

Ulduar isn't really comparable. Have you not noticed that since LFR they have gradually increased the difficulty of normal modes? Ulduar had no LFR and so it made a lot of sense to make normal fairly accessible (especially if you consider that people were going there from Naxx which was ludicrously trivial). ToT has lfr, if your friends aren't all that great or you just want to go raid and dick around. Normal is really just LFR where things do non trivial damage and bosses have proportionally more hp. If you want to raid in a setting where you aren't punished for something like ignoring 2 entire mechanics on Mag, they have created that for you.

Yea I've heard that before to and I don't buy it. Why should normal mode raiders have to be subject to an increase in difficulty when lfr was released? THey were happy doing their normal mode raids and enjoying them with their friends when it was perfect for them. Why should they have expected an increase in difficulty because of lfr? Why should they accept that? What about lfr automatically says normals have to be harder?

[Deleted]

If meg was the only boss who did this you'd have a point. Tortos does this as well and going forward I'm sure we'll have to look forward to more cheese mechanics that don't make the fight feel hard, they make the fight feel cheesy or overwhelming. Like the shitty camera angles in Ninja Gaiden. DIdn't make ninja gaiden feel hard, it just made it feel cheesy and stupid.

We do the right strat. We killed meg and to be honest I don't need lectures on our strat from forum guys. Like I said before if the strat we choose to do wasn't meant to be viable then they ought not to let us do it that way. If they intend that we can do it that way then they ought to tune the fight so we can do it that way and it's still NORMAL.

No one said normals should be easy if you do it the hard way.
(see what i did there.)

[Glorious Leader]

You are, right here, arguing exactly what I'm saying. 2 months before the next tier comes out. We haven't even had patch 5.3 come out yet (/spoiler its not a new tier of raiding) We have a LONG time left in this tier, so you and your guild will have plenty of time to get your friends in to see the normal mode content.

What is your current progression? What are you stuck on? How is your raid geared? I seem to hear a lot of anger about the difficulty without questions about the raid itself. Is it possible your raids understanding of the mechanics isn't equal to your expectation of the bosses?

At this rate we'll be lucky to kill lei shen before the next patch comes out. The item upgrades will help. I doubt we'll get any alts or under performing friends in the raid.

Honestly I'm not asking for any of you to critique my raid and their ability. Their good. That's all you need to know. They were good in the past and if this raid tier wasn't so fucking off the wall we'd probably be 11/12 normal by now.

---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:19 PM ----------

No one said normals should be easy if you do it the hard way.
(see what i did there.)

We're not doing it the hard way. We're doing it the simple way. If Blizzard didn't want us to do it the simple way than they ought to not let us use that strat. In the same way we stack the council boss and cleave it the fuck down to make that fight a joke. Unless your gonna tell me that is the correct strat for that boss?

[SirReal]

We killed it the first week pre-nerf at ~494 ilvl, and we are just a casual guild (5/12 now). Horridon is just about doing what you have to do and not being a dps-whore.
First nerf was needed since it was obviously a bit too hard for a second encounter, after Jin'rok. But this one wasn't needed at all, fight was already a joke.

you guys have been sucking hard then since. If you killed it first week but you're only 5/12 now??? come on man, you should be 12/12 with ease. it sounds like ur bragging but then at the same time it sounds like your group needs the nerfs.

[isadorr]

Yea I've heard that before to and I don't buy it. Why should normal mode raiders have to be subject to an increase in difficulty when lfr was released? THey were happy doing their normal mode raids and enjoying them with their friends when it was perfect for them. Why should they have expected an increase in difficulty because of lfr? Why should they accept that? What about lfr automatically says normals have to be harder?

Learn2play? Learn your class. Sounds like a group of casuals actually had to use their brain for once and are now pouting. Go get better, read up on fights, look at peoples numbers i will bet ANYTHING that you raid isnt putting out the hps, dps, they should. I help some casual friends and each time i look at their logs, i see people doing horrible and they have doing it for weeks meaning they had tons of gear. Go look for someone else to blame for your piss poor play.

[Glorious Leader]

Learn2play? Learn your class. Sounds like a group of casuals actually had to use their brain for once and are now pouting. Go get better, read up on fights, look at peoples numbers i will bet ANYTHING that you raid isnt putting out the hps, dps, they should. I help some casual friends and each time i look at their logs, i see people doing horrible and they have doing it for weeks meaning they had tons of gear. Go look for someone else to blame for your piss poor play.

*sigh* and then you wonder where all the raiders go? Assholes in forums and on trade chat tell them they suck and of course nobody in their right mind puts up with it. Keep it up sparky, you'll see how fast these raids turn into EASY FUCKING JOKES because their are far less of you than their are players who would prefer easier content. You are a minority and shrinking one every day.

[Deleted]

At this rate we'll be lucky to kill lei shen before the next patch comes out. The item upgrades will help. I doubt we'll get any alts or under performing friends in the raid.

Honestly I'm not asking for any of you to critique my raid and their ability. Their good. That's all you need to know. They were good in the past and if this raid tier wasn't so fucking off the wall we'd probably be 11/12 normal by now.

---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:19 PM ----------



We're not doing it the hard way. We're doing it the simple way. If Blizzard didn't want us to do it the simple way than they ought to not let us use that strat. In the same way we stack the council boss and cleave it the fuck down to make that fight a joke. Unless your gonna tell me that is the correct strat for that boss?

As i alrdy explained to you, some strats will never be able to be done unless you are at a specific gear level and thats what blizzard did on their part to stop people from doing it, obviously some people come to the fight overgeared and then see that this is a possible strat so why not do it, pretty much like your guild. If you would not have the gear for it you would not be able to kill the boss until you farm some more gear. Sure you can do normals this way to but is it optimal in any way? No.
To be honest though i think you need to chill down a bit and face the fact that your raidgroup is way worse than it once have been and realize where you are at, you know raiding isnt only about personal skill, you also need to know what to do in fights and work as a team, if you cant do that then obviously your group will be worse, so as others have tried to point out, try critizing your co-players instead of the actual raid.

[Glorious Leader]

As i alrdy explained to you, some strats will never be able to be done unless you are at a specific gear level and thats what blizzard did on their part to stop people from doing it, obviously some people come to the fight overgeared and then see that this is a possible strat so why not do it, pretty much like your guild. If you would not have the gear for it you would not be able to kill the boss until you farm some more gear. Sure you can do normals this way to but is it optimal in any way? No.
To be honest though i think you need to chill down a bit and face the fact that your raidgroup is way worse than it once have been and realize where you are at, you know raiding isnt only about personal skill, you also need to know what to do in fights and work as a team, if you cant do that then obviously your group will be worse, so as others have tried to point out, try critizing your co-players instead of the actual raid.

Yes you explained that but that's piss poor development on their part. If they don't want you to do a fight a certain way they shouldn't let you do it that way regardless of item lvl. If they do intent that strat to viable then it ought to be tuned properly. It's extremely lazy development either way.

I'm chill, I just don't need or care to have me or my raid picked apart by random kids on a forum who insist this tier of tuning is proper and isn't overtuned. All of these fights feel like heroic bosses. When we killed meg you'd have thought we'd downed a heroic boss because they are that difficulty. The numbers say it's to hard. The developers nerfing it already suggests it's to hard. Anecdote and experience suggest its to hard. None of you can accept that because well some of you are just that full of yourselves and some of you just don't seem to think it's hard and that's fine. Their is no arguing with you about this though for whatever reason and it's a shame.

[isadorr]

*sigh* and then you wonder where all the raiders go? Assholes in forums and on trade chat tell them they suck and of course nobody in their right mind puts up with it. Keep it up sparky, you'll see how fast these raids turn into EASY FUCKING JOKES because their are far less of you than their are players who would prefer easier content. You are a minority and shrinking one every day.

Cant wait for Titan and leave the nerfed wow to you then you can feel like you are actually"good".

[Deleted]

*sigh* and then you wonder where all the raiders go? Assholes in forums and on trade chat tell them they suck and of course nobody in their right mind puts up with it. Keep it up sparky, you'll see how fast these raids turn into EASY FUCKING JOKES because their are far less of you than their are players who would prefer easier content. You are a minority and shrinking one every day.

Even though i didnt like how he put it either, you still cant neglect that the fact is true and to be honest. Anyone quitting the game because they get insulted once by someone is just silly because if you are one of those players that have no clue of what they are doing there are players that are nice to them and want to help them out, its just that the douchy ones are easier to identify. Also as a matter of fact you are also acting a lot like a douche yourself which makes some of us that just want to help also look at bad, so please as i usually say to my guildies, learn to take constructive criticism or let your stubbornness kill your fun in the game.

[isadorr]

Yes you explained that but that's piss poor development on their part. If they don't want you to do a fight a certain way they shouldn't let you do it that way regardless of item lvl. If they do intent that strat to viable then it ought to be tuned properly. It's extremely lazy development either way.

I'm chill, I just don't need or care to have me or my raid picked apart by random kids on a forum who insist this tier of tuning is proper and isn't overtuned. All of these fights feel like heroic bosses. When we killed meg you'd have thought we'd downed a heroic boss because they are that difficulty. The numbers say it's to hard. The developers nerfing it already suggests it's to hard. Anecdote and experience suggest its to hard. None of you can accept that because well some of you are just that full of yourselves and some of you just don't seem to think it's hard and that's fine. Their is no arguing with you about this though for whatever reason and it's a shame.

Sad if random "kids" are smarter than you and can actually chew bubble gum and walk through content while you whine here instead of learning and getting better.

Warning; Don't make "personal" posts. Reply to the post, not the poster. (Sonnillon)

[Deleted]

Yes you explained that but that's piss poor development on their part. If they don't want you to do a fight a certain way they shouldn't let you do it that way regardless of item lvl. If they do intent that strat to viable then it ought to be tuned properly. It's extremely lazy development either way.

I'm chill, I just don't need or care to have me or my raid picked apart by random kids on a forum who insist this tier of tuning is proper and isn't overtuned. All of these fights feel like heroic bosses. When we killed meg you'd have thought we'd downed a heroic boss because they are that difficulty. The numbers say it's to hard. The developers nerfing it already suggests it's to hard. Anecdote and experience suggest its to hard. None of you can accept that because well some of you are just that full of yourselves and some of you just don't seem to think it's hard and that's fine. Their is no arguing with you about this though for whatever reason and it's a shame.

If you recall earlier you know yourself that i actually also think normals are tuned a bit to high but i still cant neglect when someone is complaining on something being to hard when they do it in a harder way than supposed, but to end this part i think we should just agree to disagree because its not leading to anything constructive.

[Glorious Leader]

Even though i didnt like how he put it either, you still cant neglect that the fact is true and to be honest. Anyone quitting the game because they get insulted once by someone is just silly because if you are one of those players that have no clue of what they are doing there are players that are nice to them and want to help them out, its just that the douchy ones are easier to identify. Also as a matter of fact you are also acting a lot like a douche yourself which makes some of us that just want to help also look at bad, so please as i usually say to my guildies, learn to take constructive criticism or let your stubbornness kill your fun in the game.

Really? you think it's silly for someone who hops online into a game, get's called a scrub (and it's not just once) and leaves the game after being insulted and subjected to a bevy of assholes insisting that their bad and need to l2p? I get what I give. If kids want to come here and pick apart me and my raid then they shit in return. REally it was my fault for posting any of my information. Dumbest thing I ever did on this fourm.

[Keoren]

The issue is that if I'm busy moving from a bit of dmg then I'm not healing that dmg. It divides my focus up between having to run and avoid that dmg and automatically puts me at a defecit as a healer. Theirs only so much shit I can pay attention to. I can't divide my focus up a million ways and be asked to do any of those things effectively. If I move out of dmg I should not take that dmg because otherwise I'm not gonna do as good a job healing that dmg because my focus is set on constantly running an obstacle course, dodging shiit left right and center.

I was curious about this because there have been normal mode fights in the past where the raid took unavoidable raid damage while having to move. Have those been out of place in the past as well?

They don't make up a majorioty of the guilds in the game. You have to be kidding.

They make up a majority of the guilds that end up killing heroic bosses. As you said, most guilds are not raiding guilds at all.

The number of mechanics are actually greater and their impact is far more detrimental. We killed ULduar in a week. We weren't overgeared and we only raided one more day than we do now. The players (by and large) haven't changed. Their still just as good. This raid is off the fucking wall in terms of difficulty and I have a hard time understand why everyone is defending this.

Most of the normal modes in WotLK were quite probably easier than the ToT normal modes. One of the problems is that as time goes on steps need to be taken in order to keep raiding fresh, interesting, and adequately challenging. Modern players would likely destroy Ulduar in comparison to how they fared back in the days. Having to balance between this and making too hard normal mode content can be tricky.

As I pointed out previously, I think that most of the fights in ToT are appropriately challenging and the instance simply lacks a gradual beginning. Not only would the early bosses serve as a starting point for the raiders, but the loot would also help to gear them up. The item levels have jumped massively from T14 and even few upgrades will bring forth visible results.

[Glorious Leader]

Sad if random "kids" are smarter than you and can actually chew bubble gum and walk through content while you whine here instead of learning and getting better.

Yes it's all about being "smarter". You are everything that is wrong with world of warcraft and the best thing that could happen to the game is that people like you leave it.

[isadorr]

Even though i didnt like how he put it either, you still cant neglect that the fact is true and to be honest. Anyone quitting the game because they get insulted once by someone is just silly because if you are one of those players that have no clue of what they are doing there are players that are nice to them and want to help them out, its just that the douchy ones are easier to identify. Also as a matter of fact you are also acting a lot like a douche yourself which makes some of us that just want to help also look at bad, so please as i usually say to my guildies, learn to take constructive criticism or let your stubbornness kill your fun in the game.

Trying to be tactful for a few posts is fine but when someone looks for someone to blame, it is sad. They can look at their numbers which he wont link because he knows people would tear it apart finding the reason for the difficulty they are having there. Instead he whines about blizzard blaming them for their bad play or horrid raid comp or playing with bad friends. People choose if they progress and how fast by their raid comp, who they play with and the numbers they put up as a raid.

There is no one else to blame, just themselves.

---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:38 PM ----------

Yes it's all about being "smarter". You are everything that is wrong with world of warcraft and the best thing that could happen to the game is that people like you leave it.

Wrath babies were the start of the downfall of progression raiding. Whiners like yourself sit in a forum crying about how hard something is. You can go get better, you can mini/max, read on a fight, look at your logs seeing what people are dying to, their dps, heals, tanks standing in stuff, what arent people interrupting. A million things that YOU could do that would make you better instead of whining calling people "kids" in a forum.

[Glorious Leader]

I was curious about this because there have been normal mode fights in the past where the raid took unavoidable raid damage while having to move. Have those been out of place in the past as well?



They make up a majority of the guilds that end up killing heroic bosses. As you said, most guilds are not raiding guilds at all.



Most of the normal modes in WotLK were quite probably easier than the ToT normal modes. One of the problems is that as time goes on steps need to be taken in order to keep raiding fresh and interesting. Modern players would likely destroy Ulduar in comparison to how they fared back in the days. Having to balance between this and making too hard normal mode content can be challenging.

As I pointed out previously, I think that most of the fights in ToT are appropriately challenging and the instance simply lacks a gradual beginning. Not only would the early bosses serve as a starting point for the raiders, but the loot would also help to gear them up. The item levels have jumped massively from T14 and even few upgrades will bring forth visible results.

No but unavoidable in past tiers was just unavoidable. Now you can avoid being killed but you can't avoid that dmg. The unavoidable dmg in previous tiers didn't also kill you at the same time immediately if you didn't run from it. Like Bethilac. Bethilac has a rampage phase as well. That's unavoidable but you can heal through it and don't have to run from it. Meg the dmg you have to run from because it will insta gib you but when you from it you take the dmg anyway. I have ZERO problem with unavoidable dmg. I have problems with being asked to run from something and still taking dmg from that something.


It seems contradictory to say most of the fights are appropriately challenging but the instance lacks a gradual beginning. The fights can't be appropriately challenging if theirs no gradation. They are just HARD. I agree about the item levels as well but that's another whole ball of wax.
---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:40 PM ----------

Wrath babies were the start of the downfall of progression raiding. Whiners like yourself sit in a forum crying about how hard something is. You can go get better, you can mini/max, read on a fight, look at your logs seeing what people are dying to, their dps, heals, tanks standing in stuff, what arent people interrupting. A million things that YOU could do that would make you better instead of whining calling people "kids" in a forum.

You know I could give you the full resume but what's the point. You've labeled me a wrath baby anyway. I could certainly do alot better but so could the developers. I know what I need to do and I don't need forum children telling me otherwise. That doesn't exempt me from critiquing the developers and the over tuned content. I'm not giving up on the raid either fyi I'm still raiding in it.

[isadorr]

Originally Posted by Glorious Leader
They don't make up a majorioty of the guilds in the game. You have to be kidding.
They make up a majority of the guilds that end up killing heroic bosses. As you said, most guilds are not raiding guilds at all.

That is part of the problem, 10 people in a raid group doesnt make a raiding guild.

[Crashdummy]

I don't consider normals a roll over.. 7 weeks in and we got 6/12 bosses dead through wipes and allot of reading up! It's by no means a roll-over but to say things are overturned when sticking your head in the sand and not trying all the options / looking why your failing is laughable!

I'm sorry but some one saying they chose the strat that is akin to standing in fire so dps dont't have to move so they can do a better rotation to up dps and healers just have to heal it and then complaining it's overturned is crazy! And yes the G>R>G>R strat of mag is exactly that... we will take more dmg to do less movement and out heal it to burn it down.... so in essence the same as standing in fire and not moving and healing through it to avoid the motion mechanic of getting out of bad shit!

No, you consider current normal challenging, and nerfed current normals a roll over. 605 of the raiders would consider those nerfed current normals challenging, and current normals are just impossible for them.

[isadorr]

No but unavoidable in past tiers was just unavoidable. Now you can avoid being killed but you can't avoid that dmg. The unavoidable dmg in previous tiers didn't also kill you at the same time immediately if you didn't run from it. Like Bethilac. Bethilac has a rampage phase as well. That's unavoidable but you can heal through it and don't have to run from it. Meg the dmg you have to run from because it will insta gib you but when you from it you take the dmg anyway. I have ZERO problem with unavoidable dmg. I have problems with being asked to run from something and still taking dmg from that something.



It seems contradictory to say most of the fights are appropriately challenging but the instance lacks a gradual beginning. The fights can't be appropriately challenging if theirs no gradation. They are just HARD. I agree about the item levels as well but that's another whole ball of wax.
---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:40 PM ----------



You know I could give you the full resume but what's the point. You've labeled me a wrath baby anyway. I could certainly do alot better but so could the developers. I know what I need to do and I don't need forum children telling me otherwise. That doesn't exempt me from critiquing the developers and the over tuned content. I'm not giving up on the raid either fyi I'm still raiding in it.

So link your logs and lets see what is wrong then you can fix it. Odds are you wont do that.