Holy mother 10man nerf

[Glorious Leader]

Originally Posted by Glorious Leader
They don't make up a majorioty of the guilds in the game. You have to be kidding.
They make up a majority of the guilds that end up killing heroic bosses. As you said, most guilds are not raiding guilds at all.

That is part of the problem, 10 people in a raid group doesnt make a raiding guild.

Again I could give you the entire resume but go back through the forum and look through for the WoL from my guild. They're all good players. We left alot of folks behind this tier. I'm not sure why I keep responding to you though. Your posts reek of elitism.

---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:46 PM ----------

So link your logs and lets see what is wrong then you can fix it. Odds are you wont do that.

I did actually, you can go back earlier and take a look see. It was the stupidest thing I ever did. Kids in forums just pull you apart and ignore your arguments. Like I said I know what I hve to do better and my guild is always working to do better. We're not quitting and we've all refused to quit even though this tier is CLEARLY OVERTUNED FOR NORMALS. That doesn't mean I can't critique the developers and their inability to understand what normal means.

[Keoren]

Like Bethilac. Bethilac has a rampage phase as well. That's unavoidable but you can heal through it and don't have to run from it.

On Beth'tilac the fire pools from the webs come at the same time as the unavoidable damage, though they are quite ignorable. Lord Rhyolith also makes the players move from the fire lines while there is constant AoE ticking. I really don't see the mechanics themselves being the issue, but rather the numbers involved if anything.

It seems contradictory to say most of the fights are appropriately challenging but the instance lacks a gradual beginning. The fights can't be appropriately challenging if theirs no gradation. They are just HARD. I agree about the item levels as well but that's another whole ball of wax.

With "appropriately challenging" I meant that I feel like the difficulty properly resembles that of normal mode encounters, and that if there are issues with the design then they are elsewhere. If the phrase in question was extended to "appropriately challenging for the position", I might shift my opinion. Placing some of the bosses at a later point in the instance and making the gearing easier would help to alleviate the issues and speed up the gradual nerf on the later encounters.

This said, the slow gearing might not be an issue at all if the developers are trying to encourage the players to try the heroic content of the previous tier before stepping into the normal modes of the new tier. Whether that is a good design is a whole another question.

[royals]

At this rate we'll be lucky to kill lei shen before the next patch comes out. The item upgrades will help. I doubt we'll get any alts or under performing friends in the raid.

Honestly I'm not asking for any of you to critique my raid and their ability. Their good. That's all you need to know. They were good in the past and if this raid tier wasn't so fucking off the wall we'd probably be 11/12 normal by now.[COLOR="red"]

This is all conjecture and what ifs at this point though. I believe you that you cleared previous tiers quicker. Probably because you had more gear from the other previous tiers you cleared even quicker. I would also agree that a 496 raid had a HELL of a time the first few weeks in ToT... Like really bad. There were some really unforgiving timers, mechanics, health pools etc. *heres looking at you council 10m". We wiped almost a whole night just on council the first week and we were lucky enough to have ~500 ilvl going into ToT progression.

But again, "Its too hard" is so subjective you are only welcoming argument. And saying "My raid is good thats all you need to know" is just asking people to pick you apart. Words like Good, hard, off the wall hard, the hard way, the easy way, compared to last tier.. all this stuff is going to be a personal opinion and differ greatly on the forums. In MY opinion, our raid had an easier time finishing normal mode ToT than Sha of Fear and/or Empress. But I had way more fun doing it.

EDIT: I'm a little confused why we keep refrencing Firelands as a raid we want things to be tuned like. Overall, that wasn't a spectacular tier, followed by Dragon Soul which seems to have the reputation as being even worse. Every raid encounter is going to have something to dodge, something happening to tanks, something aoeing the raid down and possible buffs/dbuffs to manage. The quantity and frequency of these and how they are used is the tuning knob that should be used to seperate difficulty.

As for the bosses this tier. I have NO clue why Twin Consorts is a tier boss right before Lei Shen which has NO tier. This baffles me. The Twins I see as the 2nd easiest boss in the instance to Jin'Rokh. Thinking back to bosses before end bosses as comparison in difficulty to their relative end bosses: Ambershaper, Elegon, Spine, Majordomo, (Brain farting the elemental council boss name before Chogall)... all quite a good ramp up to their End tier counterparts. Blizzard definitely missed the mark on that one.

I think with a slight rearrangement of the bosses they could have alleviated a lot of this discussion.

[Glorious Leader]

On Beth'tilac the fire pools from the webs come at the same time as the unavoidable damage, though they are quite ignorable. Lord Rhyolith also makes the players move from the fire lines while there is constant AoE ticking. I really don't see the mechanics themselves being the issue, but rather the numbers involved if anything.

The pools of fire didn't always come at the same time as the unavoidable dmg. The majority of the unavoidable dmg on H Bethliac was from her version of rampage at the end of the fight. Ember flare and meteor burn rarely happened at the same time and meteor burn was so small compared to the big green cloud of megara crap. A significant (majority?) of unavoidablde dmg from meg and tortos comes from the exact same mechanic that you have to avoid. Moving to avoid the pool for fire in bethilac resulted in NO DMG TAKEN . Moving to avoid green shit on Meg results in DMG TAKEN. Theirs a big difference. Asking someone to move from being killed by the exact same mechanic that gives out raid dmg just makes your healers constantly have to play catch up. Again I have alot to deal with and pay attention to as a healer. If I move to avoid being one shot by a mechanic (which absorbs my immediate attention when I see it coming) I shouldn't also be asked to raid heal at the same time. If it was seperate it would be one thing. But dodging an obstacle course while trying to 9 players alive is asking me to divide my focus up to much, especially when you combine it with all the other crap I have to pay attention to.

I'm all for stuff to dodge. I'm all for one shot mechanics. I'm all for unavoidable dmg. I'm not for the combination of all of those into one mechanic. I mean I guess in heroic modes but certainly not in normals.

[Crashdummy]

Okay, but if you tune it so the bottom of that 75% can get through in the time you want, the top 30% of the 75% are going to just faceroll the shit out of it. It will be barley worth doing. Then they go onto heroics, but if heroics are tuned up like some in here want then im sure a good chunk of those will hit a wall because normals were so easy and heroics are super hard. Congratulations, you just covered up one rift by creating another.

No, the top 30% have HEROIC raids, and right now, you are making Normal raids for 25% of people trying, heroic raids for around 20% and NOTHING to 75%

---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 06:16 PM ----------

I don't understand the "Cock block after Cock block" comment. Horridon initially was quite rough I will admit and pre-nerf council was difficult as well. But for our raid group once we passed council the next "Road block" was Durumu and then Iron Qon.

So you dont understand the comment yet you admit that the 2ndand 3rd bosses were cock blocks...

---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 06:18 PM ----------

Whatever the difficulty of the normal modes, the initial heroic modes especially can not be too far ahead. One of the purposes of normal mode raiding is to prepare people for the heroic modes. If you make the normals easier, it will indirectly affect the heroic designs. This is worth taking into consideration.

No, this would actually improve. Right now, some heroic bosses are easier than some normal ones. That is wrong. Nerfing normal would actually give meaning to the first heroic bosses again, and would actually make jumping from Normal to Heroic a decision to be made, and not just "Oh, we finish NOrmals, lets start heroic since some bosses are easier than what we have already done"

When you change the difficulty in a game, it should mean something, it should invovle a decision.

---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 06:24 PM ----------

Learn2play? Learn your class. Sounds like a group of casuals actually had to use their brain for once and are now pouting. Go get better, read up on fights, look at peoples numbers i will bet ANYTHING that you raid isnt putting out the hps, dps, they should. I help some casual friends and each time i look at their logs, i see people doing horrible and they have doing it for weeks meaning they had tons of gear. Go look for someone else to blame for your piss poor play.

You cant be so stubborn to say that 75% of people should Learn2Play instead of realizing that if 75% of people trying cant do something then that something is overtuned.

Look at people numbers, 75% of the target audience (and i would say 90%, since heroic raiders are NOT the NOrmal difficulty target audience) is not finishing the tiers...

[KaPe]

Look at people numbers, 75% of the target audience (and i would say 90%, since heroic raiders are NOT the NOrmal difficulty target audience) is not finishing the tiers...

And where does this number come from? Going by wowprogress, there's roughly 50% completion rate on T14. T15 isn't even halfway done, so you can't tell "75% is not finishing the tiers". And that's even ignoring the fact that previous tier got nerfed so you can finish it easily now and it will probably be the same in 5.4. With people finishing earlier being awarded Feats of Strength - which pretty much indicates they did something special. But nah, 90% should do it.

[royals]

So you dont understand the comment yet you admit that the 2ndand 3rd bosses were cock blocks...[COLOR="red"]

If you read what I said... INITIALLY Horridon and Pre Nerf Council... This was before heavy tuning by Blizzard. Then the next road blocks were Iron Qon and Durumu. Durumu has since been nerfed as well. Having some checks in the instance is good so you can't just steam roll it. My question was "Block after block after block", every boss isn't horribly tuned or overly difficult. There are a few sticking points, but what raid doesn't have those?

[Crashdummy]

And where does this number come from? Going by wowprogress, there's roughly 50% completion rate on T14. T15 isn't even halfway done, so you can't tell "75% is not finishing the tiers". And that's even ignoring the fact that previous tier got nerfed so you can finish it easily now and it will probably be the same in 5.4. With people finishing earlier being awarded Feats of Strength - which pretty much indicates they did something special. But nah, 90% should do it.

Numbers are from wowprogress at the time 5.2 launched. Of course that now, with people getting 522 gear and with a 10% nerf more people finished it.,..

The Feat of Strength thing was to calm down the special snowflakes whining about nmerfs being applied

[Deleted]

Numbers are from wowprogress at the time 5.2 launched. Of course that now, with people getting 522 gear and with a 10% nerf more people finished it.,..

The Feat of Strength thing was to calm down the special snowflakes whining about nmerfs being applied

Aren't all achievement for this ? Feeling special ? Come on don't be that guy.

[Crashdummy]

Aren't all achievement for this ? Feeling special ? Come on don't be that guy.

They are, i was just pointing it out for the guy saying that since that achievement is there the content was not targeted for normal players to be downed before next expansion.

[Deleted]

They are, i was just pointing it out for the guy saying that since that achievement is there the content was not targeted for normal players to be downed before next expansion.

Well yeah its always nice to have a "reward" for the effort you put in.

And I can understand this logic, if there's a "rare" (and then unobtainable later) achievement for doing/killing something before a set date, its probably because its not targeted at everyone.

[Crashdummy]

Well yeah its always nice to have a "reward" for the effort you put in.

And I can understand this logic, if there's a "rare" (and then unobtainable later) achievement for doing/killing something before a set date, its probably because its not targeted at everyone.

No, its because they want room so they can nerf things but they wanted to stop the special snowflakes whining.

Remember one thing, the achievement intially was to kill the bosses before the NERFS, then Blizzard decided to try the item upgrade route as "nerfs" and se what happens, but initially the nerfs were going to be delivered BEFORE the next tier.

Blizzard made a decision to not nerf T14 in the middle of it, and we are saying here that it was a mistake. And IMO, the mistake was to make the tiers so overtuned in the first place.

[NeverStop]

I can't wait to see what Glorious Leader thinks of Lei Shen. "I moved out of Thunderstruck but it still hit me for 200k!! Boss is overtuned. Blizzard nerf please."

[Deleted]

No, its because they want room so they can nerf things but they wanted to stop the special snowflakes whining.

Remember one thing, the achievement intially was to kill the bosses before the NERFS, then Blizzard decided to try the item upgrade route as "nerfs" and se what happens, but initially the nerfs were going to be delivered BEFORE the next tier.

Blizzard made a decision to not nerf T14 in the middle of it, and we are saying here that it was a mistake. And IMO, the mistake was to make the tiers so overtuned in the first place.

The biggest mistake was to gate ToeS behind empress. I'm sure it would've been a looooooooooooooooooot smoother if people could've done ToeS before killing the Empress.
All ToeS bosses were not even close to the difficulty of the Empress, not even 50%.

[Crashdummy]

The biggest mistake was to gate ToeS behind empress. I'm sure it would've been a looooooooooooooooooot smoother if people could've done ToeS before killing the Empress.
All ToeS bosses were not even close to the difficulty of the Empress, not even 50%.

Which is something they did because people said the tiered raiding days were better.

But, the biggest mmistake was to make the last 4 bosses of HoF so freaking hard. If those bosses would have been of the difficulty of MSV and Terrace many more people would have finished that tier.

But the thing is, they did a similar mistake in this tier with bosses like Horridon, Council and Durumu.

[Deleted]

Which is something they did because people said the tiered raiding days were better.

But, the biggest mmistake was to make the last 4 bosses of HoF so freaking hard. If those bosses would have been of the difficulty of MSV and Terrace many more people would have finished that tier.

But the thing is, they did a similar mistake in this tier with bosses like Horridon, Council and Durumu.

Can't do anything but agree

[Osmeric]

Cant wait for Titan and leave the nerfed wow to you then you can feel like you are actually"good".

I thought we already debunked the "Titan is going to be for hardcores" rumor.

[Glorious Leader]

I thought we already debunked the "Titan is going to be for hardcores" rumor.

Let him dream will you. A man has to dream.

[melodramocracy]

Yea I've heard that before to and I don't buy it. Why should normal mode raiders have to be subject to an increase in difficulty when lfr was released? THey were happy doing their normal mode raids and enjoying them with their friends when it was perfect for them. Why should they have expected an increase in difficulty because of lfr? Why should they accept that? What about lfr automatically says normals have to be harder?

Because prior to LFR, normals were the sole entry point to raiding. Now that entry point has 2 potential skill levels. Also consider how much more effective LFR gear is than what was available to players before hand. Normals were the only way to get set bonus gear back then, and that is no longer true.

You'll notice that LFR is also getting tougher as time goes by as well.

[Glorious Leader]

Because prior to LFR, normals were the sole entry point to raiding. Now that entry point has 2 potential skill levels. Also consider how much more effective LFR gear is than what was available to players before hand. Normals were the only way to get set bonus gear back then, and that is no longer true.

You'll notice that LFR is also getting tougher as time goes by as well.

None of which should need apply to raiders running normal. LFR was not made for them. They shouldn't be subject to increased difficulty because of it's introduction. The second part is also not true. Their was quite a long period where you could buy set gear with valor (or it's analogous currency), it wasn't until DS tier that they stopped that.