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  1. #1441
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    No I just think that your idea of "medium" is so easy just about anyone can do it.
    Well yeah, ofc it should be. For normal to be normal, the centre of the bell curve should be the target base.
    And like I have said a bunch, I don't think raiding is for everyone. I agree there is a gap between LFR and Normal, but I think that's a good thing. So yes, I'm an elitist. I don't want the "masses" normal raiding unless they can handle it. Why should the content I enjoy get nerfed all to hell because a bunch of unskilled people can't hack it.
    Because you have HC modes and they (currently) have nothing.


    Ha. Sometimes your "best" isn't good enough.
    And where that line falls is an entirely arbitary one decided at blizz HQ. They could put the line way past anything you can achieve - leaving you with just LFR to play with. Would that be fair?

  2. #1442
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Like wise your idea of medium so hard that apparently next to no one is doing it and everyone is being driven to hard mode. Sooooooooooooooooooooooo where does that leave us? Well clearly the gap is to big between lfr and normal and should be shrunk. The thing is your already done normals so what the fuck do you care if they nerf it for folks that can hack it? How long did it take you to clear normals?

    Unfortunately you can't be an elitist when the world around you begins to decay. Nor can the developers continue to serve and cater you to this degree because you are an apparent shrinking minority. Enjoy it while you can
    We are 11/12 atm. So we are not done with normals. The best way to judge your own skill is by comparison to others. A school example. If I get an A, but the class average was an A as well, whoopty fucking dooo. But if I get a C, but the class average is an F, nice... I just beat alot of people. The only real measure we have in this world is how good we are relative to others. Without others to compare to, you have no point of reference. If I complete something but then its difficulty level gets nerfed all to hell, how can I judge my own place in the curve.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 11:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Well yeah, ofc it should be. For normal to be normal, the centre of the bell curve should be the target base.


    Because you have HC modes and they (currently) have nothing.



    And where that line falls is an entirely arbitary one decided at blizz HQ. They could put the line way past anything you can achieve - leaving you with just LFR to play with. Would that be fair?
    I would try my damnedest and if I couldn't hack it, I would go do something else. Not whine that the system is too hard.

  3. #1443
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    We are 11/12 atm. So we are not done with normals. The best way to judge your own skill is by comparison to others. A school example. If I get an A, but the class average was an A as well, whoopty fucking dooo. But if I get a C, but the class average is an F, nice... I just beat alot of people. The only real measure we have in this world is how good we are relative to others. Without others to compare to, you have no point of reference. If I complete something but then its difficulty level gets nerfed all to hell, how can I judge my own place in the curve.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 11:15 AM ----------



    I would try my damnedest and if I couldn't hack it, I would go do something else. Not whine that the system is too hard.
    That isn't the best way to judge or determine what should constitute normal raiding though. LIke your example is just to narrow. Your class may have gotten an F and you got a C but every other class may have gotten a B and the national average may be an A guess what that means? I agree without others to compare to you have no point of reference but your point of reference is so completely narrow that it may as well be ZERO. You completed most of the raid prior to any nerfs so you can judge your own skill fairly well I should think especially compared to what the statistics and figures are saying. Furthemore I'm not sure why it really matters to you what everyone else is doing.

    You'd go do lfr if normal was to hard. Now you know why everyone went to do lfr. Normal is to hard.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #1444
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I would try my damnedest and if I couldn't hack it, I would go do something else. Not whine that the system is too hard.
    That's what everyone else does too.

    It's why you see threads like "where have all the raiders gone" and this one. it's also why you see nerfs - people don't moan, they quit. The nerfs are to try and stop the leavers and bring some back.

  5. #1445
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post

    You'd go do lfr if normal was to hard. Now you know why everyone went to do lfr. Normal is to hard.
    Cool. Lets just leave it at that then. :P Can't they stay in LFR?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 11:30 AM ----------

    Meh. Personally I don't care if people leave. I know blizzard does, but im not them. WoW is in the last half of its life anyway, so I hope they keep the difficulty the same and when it does finally die. I'll find something else to play.
    Last edited by cabyio; 2013-04-21 at 05:48 PM.

  6. #1446
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Sure. I personally don't think that the last round of nerfs were needed, but they are done already so... no reason to cry over spilled milk.

    As for T14, I'm not sure what was needed. But if those people have quit playing then we don't need to worry about them now right?

    What specifically in T15 do you think still needs nerfed?
    Of course we need to worry about them.

    Blizzard knows that the people that leave dont always leave forever, and that if they change the things that were wrong, those subs may come back.

    Durumu and quon still needs nerfs, Lei Shen needs nerfs, because is hard even for a last boss.

    Tortos may use a nerf, specially since its way unfair for some healers.

    Then in one month they can see if there is something blocking too many people.

    By the way, the NEED to nerf the last bosses of HoF. Garalon is ok now, but the other 3 still require nerfs IMO, they are blocking too many people for an old tier (i know many guilds still attempting and failing to finish it).

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 07:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    Based on my experience some of the normal mode fights (Lei Shen) are more complex than some of the heroic modes (Jin'rokh), but the mechanics of the normal mode fights are still more lenient. That said, the more geared you are the easier the numbers fights become in comparison to the mechanics fights. I think ToT is mostly well designed in regards of the transition from the normals to the heroics.
    And i disagree. People killing twin consorts N will wipe a lot before killing Lei Shen N. People that had killed Lei Shen N will kin Junrohk H pretty fast.

    The transition is non existant, there is no decision to be made, you killed Lei Shen Normal, you WILL kill H Jinrohk in a few wipes, less wipes than the ones it took to kill Lei Shen Normal.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 07:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Whats the point of raiding if there is no bite in the fights. If you can just walk in and half ass it, ignoring or half paying attention to the mechanics.
    You dont understand. Fights that have a "bite" to your group, are almost IMPOSSIBLE for average raiders.

    Fights that have a "bite" for average raiders (which are a lot more than your group) would be a cakewalk for your group.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 07:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    We are 11/12 atm. So we are not done with normals. The best way to judge your own skill is by comparison to others. A school example. If I get an A, but the class average was an A as well, whoopty fucking dooo. But if I get a C, but the class average is an F, nice... I just beat alot of people. The only real measure we have in this world is how good we are relative to others. Without others to compare to, you have no point of reference. If I complete something but then its difficulty level gets nerfed all to hell, how can I judge my own place in the curve.
    The A is not finishing Normals, the A is heroic.

    Now if you require a C to pass the course, but only 20% of the students get it and the rest gets an F, i'm sorry to tell you this, but its not the studetns fault. Either you failed to teach them, ir you made the tests too hard.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-04-21 at 10:47 PM.

  7. #1447
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Now you know why everyone went to do lfr. Normal is to hard.
    That's not why.

  8. #1448
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    And i disagree. People killing twin consorts N will wipe a lot before killing Lei Shen N. People that had killed Lei Shen N will kin Junrohk H pretty fast.

    The transition is non existant, there is no decision to be made, you killed Lei Shen Normal, you WILL kill H Jinrohk in a few wipes, less wipes than the ones it took to kill Lei Shen Normal.
    I wasn't directly stating which one of the fights I feel is harder overall. Lei Shen likely takes longer to understand and is more complex overall, but the simple mechanics on Jin'rokh are still far more punishing. It will come down to the group which one is harder. The transition between the two I feel is appropiate. There isn't exactly a reason to discourage people from trying the easiest heroic modes once they're done with the hardest fight on normal. The challenge also ramps up soon after the initial step and the other normal mode fights are a step below Lei Shen.

  9. #1449
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    That's not why.
    Yes it is.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #1450
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    I wasn't directly stating which one of the fights I feel is harder overall. Lei Shen likely takes longer to understand and is more complex overall, but the simple mechanics on Jin'rokh are still far more punishing. It will come down to the group which one is harder. The transition between the two I feel is appropiate. There isn't exactly a reason to discourage people from trying the easiest heroic modes once they're done with the hardest fight on normal. The challenge also ramps up soon after the initial step and the other normal mode fights are a step below Lei Shen.
    Again, after you kill twin consorts the next step is lei shen, which is a big jump and it will take you many wipes.

    Once you get Lei Shen, you will kill Jinrohk very fast, because its easier than Lei Shen, you jsut need to get the feel of the fight.

    The transition not only is innapropiate, is non existant. You are actually killing an easier fight. Yes, you will wipe a couple of times untill you tune your strategy, but that will be very simple after doing Lei Shen N.

    I am not talking about discouraging, i am talking about being a jump up, something that involves a decision.

    The challenge doesnt ramp up that much, because you can choose the order in Heroic. H Ji Kun is not harder than Lei Shen N either.

    The thing is, the easiest heroic difficulties are easier than harder heroic ones. This was seen very clearly in T14, where some people that couldnt finish HoF had many MSV heroics completed.

  11. #1451
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes it is.
    No, it really isn't.

    I'll wager that there are a significant number of LFR players who have simply never set foot in a normal because they don't care about it. In fact, I'll say that that number is higher than the amount of players who feel that LFR is their only option because normals are too hard.

    Sadly, neither one of us has the actual data on such things, but you did say 'everyone', so I can guarantee that you're wrong.

  12. #1452
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    No, it really isn't.

    I'll wager that there are a significant number of LFR players who have simply never set foot in a normal because they don't care about it. In fact, I'll say that that number is higher than the amount of players who feel that LFR is their only option because normals are too hard.

    Sadly, neither one of us has the actual data on such things, but you did say 'everyone', so I can guarantee that you're wrong.
    Yes, it really is.

    I'll wager that difficulty of content as well as the lack of any serious or good catch up mechanic has created such a massive barrier to entry for players who would otherwise have tried normal raiding. So much so that they simply go to the most accessible and easy content available to them. LFR.

    Sadly, neither one of us has the actual data on such things, but you didn't clarify and simple said no it isn't, so I can guarantee that it is not NO unequivocally.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-22 at 03:17 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #1453
    Pls close this thread. It has completely no purpose - it is not on the B-net forums and crying for even more nerfs for a raid will not reach Blizzard's ears if you post here.

    Just pointless arguing back and forth with inflammatory posts from both sides.

  14. #1454
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    I am not talking about discouraging, i am talking about being a jump up, something that involves a decision.
    Why should the heroic modes be a clear jump instead of an extension to the difficulty?

    I am fine with either model on a personal level. However, having too big of a jump between the two formats would be quite a hindrance to guilds that aren't finding the appropriate challenge in the normal modes and are not yet on the level to get very far into the current heroic modes. If the initial heroic modes were too hard, these guilds would be in the same situation as the ones that couldn't get past the first normal mode encounters, the guilds that many here were supporting. Is that a good design?

    Taking into account the nerfs to the initial normal mode encounters, I do feel that the curve from LFR to normals to heroics is for the most part smooth and acceptable at this point. There are always few hiccups and that is acceptable. They also make the designs feel less clinical and streamlined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    The challenge doesnt ramp up that much, because you can choose the order in Heroic. H Ji Kun is not harder than Lei Shen N either.
    Being able to cherry pick the easier heroic modes merely means that the guilds can progress through the instance in a more linear fashion as far as the difficulty is concerned. This mostly helps the guilds that are not at the vanguard of progression. I would also be surprised if the difficulty was ramping up extremely fast considering the amount of bosses in the instance.

    It is also worth mentioning that Ji-kun posed a challenge on 25-man heroic. I've heard he was quite the pushover on 10-man from the get-go. That is inconsistent balancing and a mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    The thing is, the easiest heroic difficulties are easier than harder heroic ones.
    I'll take it you mean that they're easier than the hardest normal encounters.

    The easiest heroics modes are often devoid of mechanics. They are both overgeared fast and easy to understand, focusing more on the tuning of the numbers. This is one of the reasons why fights like Lei Shen and Lich King occasionally surpass such encounters in perceived difficulty. There is no doubt that sometimes these heroics modes are also tuned far too easy. Saying that this has been the case in ToT is still somewhat arguable from my point of view, though you did state that you would rather see the heroics as a bigger step up in difficulty.

    Looking at the overall situation none of the normal modes apart from Lei Shen can actually compare to the heroics. In Lei Shen's case he will end up posing a bigger challenge for some groups than the first one or two heroics modes that they complete. This seems appropriate due to them being completely different types of encounters that offer different types of challenges. The relative difficulties also vary depending on at which point of the tier you're looking at them.

    That said, I would support the idea of lifting the requirement of killing the last boss of an instance in order to access the heroic modes. This would prevent the scenario of an undertuned "prize" heroic being gated behind the final boss and give the guilds more alternatives. Despite some of the positives, the current model seems slightly unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    This was seen very clearly in T14, where some people that couldnt finish HoF had many MSV heroics completed.
    Difficulty-wise the MSV heroic modes became old content already during T14 because of the tuning to a lower item level. This made some encounters such as Gara'jal fairly basic.

  15. #1455
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    Closing this thread. 10-man NERFs have been discussed in depth by now. And as it seems nothing new or valuable will be added other then bashing each other.

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