Help buying my first Graphics Card

[FraterN]

Hello MMO, I finally have enough pocket change to buy my first Graphics Card, and aside from installing them I know practically nothing about choosing one.

My ideal budget for the GPU is around $200-$250, give or take a few bucks- And what I'm looking for is for it to be able to (hopefully) play WoW: MoP on Ultra, along with smoothly playing other games such as Skyrim and Diablo 3.

Currently what I've got Computer-wise was an "Out of the box" computer I bought a year ago for schoolwork from best buy, and while I know it's not "great" for gaming, I don't have the means to invest in building a gaming supercomputer at the moment.

What I've got is the Asus Essentio Desktop / AMD Phenom™ II X6 Processor / 8GB Memory (As seen Here on the best buy website) Which I've been using with on-board graphics to play WoW at lowest settings.

Here are some of the technical specs:

System Information

   Operating System: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit (6.1, Build 7601) Service Pack 1 (7601.win7sp1_gdr.120330-1504)
           Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: ASUSTeK Computer INC.
       System Model: CM1730/CM1830
               BIOS: BIOS Date: 04/13/11 16:46:35 Ver: 04.01
          Processor: AMD Phenom(tm) II X6 1065T Processor (6 CPUs), ~2.9GHz
             Memory: 8192MB RAM
Available OS Memory: 7936MB RAM

Current Display Device Information

    Card name: ATI Radeon 3000 Graphics
       Manufacturer: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
          Chip type: ATI display adapter (0x9616)
           DAC type: Internal DAC(400MHz)
         Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9616&SUBSYS_83881043&REV_00
     Display Memory: 3063 MB
   Dedicated Memory: 252 MB
      Shared Memory: 2811 MB
       Current Mode: 1600 x 900 (32 bit) (60Hz)
       Monitor Name: Generic PnP Monitor

If there's any more information that's needed, just let me know.

Thank you for your help!

[yurano]

WoW on Ultra requires more than just a fancy GPU unfortunately. You'll need an overclocked i5-3570K as well.

If your rig uses the ATX PSU standard you should swap out the PSU (~$50). Otherwise, the stock PSU might not be able to handle cards more powerful than a 7750.

A $180 650 Ti boost will most likely push a CPU bottleneck, but you mentioned other games as well which makes this a reasonable choice.

[Deleted]

Do you intend to slowly upgrade the machine bit by bit, Ninjota?

In such cases, bottlenecking can sometimes not be prevented in order to achieve a greater goal in the future. However, if you're looking for the best possible graphics card that will work fine in cooperation with your current CPU, that's a whole 'nother story.

Like Yurano said, your power supply unit may not have the oompf nor the right plugs (although there's adapters for that) to install a high end card. And with your budget, you start looking at the somewhat stronger cards already. (Which is a good thing! )

Lastly, also like Yurano said, WoW is sadly one of those prime examples that's dependant on the CPU a lot. Mostly in crowded areas (ie stormwind or a 25/40man raid), the CPU starts playing a big part. And will have to warn you right off the bat, getting a stable 60fps on all ultra on a 1080p screen in a 25 or 40 man raid requires quite a hefty setup. Arguably that goal can't even be reached, although opinions differ on that.

[Deleted]

any chance you could check the PSU sticker/post what you can read on it ? (or picture even via imgur)
if it's a decent psu a 7870 XT could be a good choice.

[ElvenArcher]

WoW on Ultra requires more than just a fancy GPU unfortunately. You'll need an overclocked i5-3570K as well.

If your rig uses the ATX PSU standard you should swap out the PSU (~$50). Otherwise, the stock PSU might not be able to handle cards more powerful than a 7750.

A $180 650 Ti boost will most likely push a CPU bottleneck, but you mentioned other games as well which makes this a reasonable choice.

You don't need an overclocked i5 for WoW. i3s, i5s and i7s didn't even exist when WoW first game out, and the engine hasn't changed since. The graphical improvements are child's play compared to games that actually require and i3 or better.

His CPU is more than capable of handling WoW at Ultra, it's his GPU that's lacking. You can run WoW at Ultra with a good GPU on a Core 2 Duo at 2GHZ+. I do it with a GeForce 560 GTX @ 1980x1200 no problem.

First poster, to answer your question, buy a GeForce 660GTX, it will more than suit your needs.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...82E16814125443

^ Never goes beyond 59 C at full load in Firefall/WoW/Bad Company 2. Firefall is a game that looks 5x better than WoW, and I run it at max settings with 40+ FPS in huge battle scenes. The last time I tried WoW 2 months ago (uninstalled now) I was sitting in the middle of Valley of the Four Winds at Ultra with like 120+ FPS, and every quality setting turned at max from the Nvidia Control Panel.

Never buy a graphics card for its looks, buy it according to reviews. I personally own this card and it's whisper quiet and utterly badass.

The price doesn't show but it's 230$ + 7.49$ shipping.

Your monitor is 1600 x 900 max resolution that's nothing for today's cards.

For Nvidia cards the second number indicates the performance factor. Ex: 640, 650, 660, 670, 680, 690. The numbers ending with 40 and 50 are low end to entry level cards. The numbers ending with 60 and 70 are more performance oriented and a very good value/$ ratio. The number ending with 80 is for enthusiasts who want to run multiple monitors and such with insane settings and good FPS, and the number ending with 90 is for people with a lot of money.

The RADEON/ATI/AMD numbers have a similar pattern but it's fucking confusing. It's like 7790 is better than 7860 or some shit I can't remember but don't buy ATI their drivers are shit atm.

[Killora]

You don't need an overclocked i5 for WoW. i3s, i5s and i7s didn't even exist when WoW first game out, and the engine hasn't changed since. The graphical improvements are child's play compared to games that actually require and i3 or better.

Are you -kidding- me? WoWs engine is pretty much a completely different engine compared to release. It's been updated and improved so many times that saying it's the same engine is insane.The game is significantly more demanding than even TBC. It has DX11 for crying out loud.

His CPU is more than capable of handling WoW at Ultra, it's his GPU that's lacking. You can run WoW at Ultra with a good GPU on a Core 2 Duo at 2GHZ+. I do it with a GeForce 560 GTX @ 1980x1200 no problem.

Sorry, but not many CPU's can handle WoW on Ultra (that means shadows) very well in raids and populated areas. AMD CPU's especially fall behind of intel in general in WoW.His CPU isn't terrible, and it'd run Ultra in open world, but not that well in raids.

First poster, to answer your question, buy a GeForce 660GTX, it will more than suit your needs.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...82E16814125443

^ Never goes beyond 59 C at full load in Firefall/WoW/Bad Company 2. Firefall is a game that looks 5x better than WoW, and I run it at max settings with 40+ FPS in huge battle scenes. The last time I tried WoW 2 months ago (uninstalled now) I was sitting in the middle of Valley of the Four Winds at Ultra with like 120+ FPS, and every quality setting turned at max from the Nvidia Control Panel.

For one, we don't know what PSU he has yet, so we can't recommend any video card until we know that. And secondly, since when does how cool a GPU runs determine if one should buy it or not? Temperature is also highly subjective as temperatures will vary depending on case ventilation and ambient temperature.

Never buy a graphics card for its looks, buy it according to reviews. I personally own this card and it's whisper quiet and utterly badass.

The price doesn't show but it's 230$ + 7.49$ shipping.

Your monitor is 1600 x 900 max resolution that's nothing for today's cards.

So, you're saying not to buy a 7870 XT, because it looks good? What? The GPU is faster than your 660 you linked. It's based off of a tahiti chip that's on a 7950/7970. It's simply cut down a little. It's the best price/performance card on the market.

[Lathais]

You don't need an overclocked i5 for WoW. i3s, i5s and i7s didn't even exist when WoW first game out, and the engine hasn't changed since. The graphical improvements are child's play compared to games that actually require and i3 or better.

His CPU is more than capable of handling WoW at Ultra, it's his GPU that's lacking. You can run WoW at Ultra with a good GPU on a Core 2 Duo at 2GHZ+. I do it with a GeForce 560 GTX @ 1980x1200 no problem.

First poster, to answer your question, buy a GeForce 660GTX, it will more than suit your needs.

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...82E16814125443

^ Never goes beyond 59 C at full load in Firefall/WoW/Bad Company 2. Firefall is a game that looks 5x better than WoW, and I run it at max settings with 40+ FPS in huge battle scenes. The last time I tried WoW 2 months ago (uninstalled now) I was sitting in the middle of Valley of the Four Winds at Ultra with like 120+ FPS, and every quality setting turned at max from the Nvidia Control Panel.

Never buy a graphics card for its looks, buy it according to reviews. I personally own this card and it's whisper quiet and utterly badass.

The price doesn't show but it's 230$ + 7.49$ shipping.

Your monitor is 1600 x 900 max resolution that's nothing for today's cards.

For Nvidia cards the second number indicates the performance factor. Ex: 640, 650, 660, 670, 680, 690. The numbers ending with 40 and 50 are low end to entry level cards. The numbers ending with 60 and 70 are more performance oriented and a very good value/$ ratio. The number ending with 80 is for enthusiasts who want to run multiple monitors and such with insane settings and good FPS, and the number ending with 90 is for people with a lot of money.

The RADEON/ATI/AMD numbers have a similar pattern but it's fucking confusing. It's like 7790 is better than 7860 or some shit I can't remember but don't buy ATI their drivers are shit atm.

You are wrong on so many levels here. First, there have been graphical improvements since Vanilla, with each expansion requiring a more powerful CPU/GPU. Each time an expansion came out my FPS dropped noticeably, until I upgraded. It does in fact get updated and does in fact require at least an i3 nowadays, especially to pull Ultra. Having said that, saying a 3570k is required is a little over the top, as an OCed 2500k will produce similar results. As long as you have a decent, OCable intel CPU you should be fine. Now that is talking pushing settings at Ultra. Modifed Ultra, with things like Shadows and AA turned down a bit, that's a different story.

While his CPU may be capable of pulling Ultra, it's gonna be at 10 FPS during raids or content with lots going on.

On which Video Card to choose, I would likely stick with yuranos suggestion of the 650ti Boost. The performance is near the same as the 660, especially in a single monitor setup at that resolution, and is slightly cheaper.

[Toffie]

I agree Killora, he couldn't be more wrong.

Saying WoW's engine is the same at release couldn't be more wrong.

Mop


Vanilla

[ElvenArcher]

@Ninjota: believe who you want in this thread, I've been building computers for years and I'm talking out of actual experience. Everything I mention here I own and tested. I suggested the GTX 660 cause you'll get the most life out of it while remaining in your budget range. You may have to upgrade your Power Supply Unit (PSU), but it's worth to do for this card, a good 650W PSU like Cooler Master Bronze is like 70$.

@Toffie: on what level of mental retardation am I supposed to descend here to talk to you? You show me two different screenshots and make engine comments.
a) Show me the same screenshot with the pre-BC and today's engine if you want to show me differences.
b) Your second screenshot shows me two high hills which I can find for you in Theralas, Thousand Needles, Arathi Highlands and about 20 million other places in WoW. What's your point? STV is probably more difficult to render than those 2 hills.

@ Lathais: just because i3s, i5s and i7s exist doesn't mean you NEED to use them. I played with a Core 2 Duo @ 2.5 GHz and have no problem in BGs/Raids with a 560 GTX at 1980x1200 at 120+ FPS, the 660 is even better.

Here's a random Youtube video to prove my point (GeForce 560 and the original poster's CPU, at that):



@Killora:
- DX11 has nothing to do with the CPU. Its purpose is also to optimize, not to make things harder to render, unless you use its advanced features like tessellation, which are once again the GPU's job.

- He shouldn't upgrade his CPU just cause cause he maybe might not be able to run Ultra shadows in raids. Everyone knows WoW shadows are horribly optimized at High and Ultra, it's documented in many places on the Internet. If he turns Shadows down to High or Medium he won't even notice the difference, there's not much shadow usage in raids anyway, and you hardly notice it during fights. Asking to pay 220$+ just for something that's barely noticeable is insane. Once again, this is assuming he has problems.

- So if he has a poor PSU you're gonna recommend him a GeForce 640 instead of first recommending to upgrade his PSU then get a 650ti/660? Wow, you're a ton of help.

-I mentioned not to be impressed by looks of a card since I see people often comment on the 660 that it's "ugly" and they'd rather buy the EVGA counterparts with closed casings. Except looks don't matter, so he should learn early not to look at that first.

- Temperature is subjective? Really? So you're gonna recommend him an Ivy Bridge CPU instead of Sandy Bridge even though Ivy Bridge CPUs all run a standard 20-25 C hotter than Sandy because of their shitty soldering? Or are you gonna tell him radiators are just big paper weights? Heat management is important for reducing the risks of failure, increasing the lifespan of your components and avoiding slow downs during gaming sessions due to high heat in components, especially when using a computer in summer, unless you're constantly running the A/C in the house. NEVER again tell someone that heat management is subjective. It's goddamn objective through countless documentation and guides on the Internet on how and why you should keep your components cool.

It's important to know a graphics card will run cool under load, otherwise you're at risk of getting stuttering and performance drops for no obvious reason, while your GPU fan is spinning its heart out to keep the card from shutting down.

Also, here's a good thread full of competent advice: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/34...0t-intel-3570k

[Killora]

@Ninjota: believe who you want in this thread, I've been building computers for years and I'm talking out of actual experience. Everything I mention here I own and tested. I suggested the GTX 660 cause you'll get the most life out of it while remaining in your budget range. You may have to upgrade your Power Supply Unit (PSU), but it's worth to do for this card, a good 650W PSU like Cooler Master Bronze is like 70$.

First, we're all speaking out of experience here. Second, no one can doubt that the 7870XT is better than a 660, in price and performance. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. I'm not saying Nvidia is bad or that the 660 is bad, but it's none of the things you're saying it is; better than the 7870XT. And third, 650w Cooler Master PSU for a GTX 660? You don't need a 650w PSU for ANY single GPU. 550w is all you need, and 450W can run a 660 fine.

@Toffie: on what level of mental retardation am I supposed to descend here to talk to you? You show me two different screenshots and make engine comments.
a) Show me the same screenshot with the pre-BC and today's engine if you want to show me differences.
b) Your second screenshot shows me two high hills which I can find for you in Theralas, Thousand Needles, Arathi Highlands and about 20 million other places in WoW. What's your point? STV is probably more difficult to render than those 2 hills.

*facepalm* the point was to illustrate graphics have significantly improved. And they have. The engine is pretty much NOTHING like the engine from Vanilla. If you think that then i have no idea what to say to you.

@ Lathais: just because i3s, i5s and i7s exist doesn't mean you NEED to use them. I played with a Core 2 Duo @ 2.5 GHz and have no problem in BGs/Raids with a 560 GTX at 1980x1200 at 120+ FPS, the 660 is even better.

I will never understand how people can expect to make up wild numbers with some crap CPU and expect us to believe them. You're not a sole exception of anything here. A Core 2 Duo will not, i repeat, WILL NOT run WoW at ultra in BG's/raids. Hear that? It won't. ever.

Here's a random Youtube video to prove my point (GeForce 560 and the original poster's CPU, at that):

Proving what point? This is in wrath of the lich king, in EoE. EoE is one of the least intensive raids ever.

@Killora:
- DX11 has nothing to do with the CPU. Its purpose is also to optimize, not to make things harder to render, unless you use its advanced features like tessellation, which are once again the GPU's job.

Where did i say anything about it having to do with the CPU? I was illustrating that WoW is NOT the same engine as in vanilla, since it supports DX11. Which unless theres some magic that allows DX9 to gradually morph into DX11 without any modification to the game engine, then it's been modified, and thus is not the same engine by any stretch of the word.

- He shouldn't upgrade his CPU just cause cause he maybe might not be able to run Ultra shadows in raids. Everyone knows WoW shadows are horribly optimized at High and Ultra, it's documented in many places on the Internet. If he turns Shadows down to High or Medium he won't even notice the difference, there's not much shadow usage in raids anyway, and you hardly notice it during fights. Asking to pay 220$+ just for something that's barely noticeable is insane. Once again, this is assuming he has problems.

Do you even know what Ultra Shadows do? It casts full dynamic high resolution shadows on the ENTIRE terrain. Shadows are also used plenty in raids. How can you possibly say otherwise? every player in your raid has a shadow to case, the terrain, the boss, all the mobs, etc. And, i'm not saying i agree with that the notion that a OC'd i5 is needed, but i don't think that's what he intended. It is true that in order to play at ultra in raids smoothly as possible, you need an i5 or better.

- So if he has a poor PSU you're gonna recommend him a GeForce 640 instead of first recommending to upgrade his PSU then get a 650ti/660? Wow, you're a ton of help.

Where did i say that? If he has a 300w PSU he can run a 650 TI boost, but not a 660. Which by the way, the 650 TI boost is almost on par with your precious 660, for ~$70 less.

-I mentioned not to be impressed by looks of a card since I see people often comment on the 660 that it's "ugly" and they'd rather buy the EVGA counterparts with closed casings. Except looks don't matter, so he should learn early not to look at that first.

Then your comment was irrelevant in this case, because it served literally no purpose.

- Temperature is subjective? Really? So you're gonna recommend him an Ivy Bridge CPU instead of Sandy Bridge even though Ivy Bridge CPUs all run a standard 20-25 C hotter than Sandy because of their shitty soldering? Or are you gonna tell him radiators are just big paper weights? Heat management is important for reducing the risks of failure, increasing the lifespan of your components and avoiding slow downs during gaming sessions to to high heat in components, especially when using a computer in summer, unless you're constantly running the A/C in the house. NEVER again tell someone that heat management is subjective. It's goddamn objective through countless documentation and guides on the Internet on how and why you should keep your components cool.

Yes, it's subjective, your numbers at least are. You can't advertise temperatures in a well ventilated case and expect it to run as cool in a more restrictive case. How hot the GPU runs shouldn't make you decide to buy a 660 instead of a 7870XT. Between manufacturers of the same card? Hell yes. Between two different cards? No. Obviously temperature is important, but if your GPU is overheating, then theres something else going on rather than the fact you bought a 7870XT instead of a 660. So yes, i'll tell you again, your numbers are subjective.

It's important to know a graphics card will run cool under load, otherwise you're at risk of getting stuttering and performance drops for no obvious reason, while your GPU fan is spinning its heart out to keep the card from shutting down.

Do you not know what Middle ground is? Theres a spot between cool and overheating that the GPU will run just fine.

[Toffie]

120+ Fps at 1980x1200? I'm at loss by words.
Also throwing insults at people who have spent a long time helping people in the computer section is not the wisest way to go to show your point. I don't agree with your points and rather help the OP decide on which component he needs most, untill he responds I wont return to the " I can run the game on my low end hardware perfectly". Sadly my setup in my signature is struggling in raids and battlegrounds at 1980x1080p, I find it hard to believe your setup can do it better.

[Deleted]

@OP: Get back to us once you find out what PSU the build has. In the mean time, ignore everything that was posted between ElvenArcher's first post and the one above Toffie's latest post.

I enjoy a pissing contest as much as the next guy, although I'm not sure why they happen so much on these forums lately. Makes it much harder to actually give assistance in these threads. Perhaps sometimes we have to accept that there's several roads that lead to Rome, and some of us are never going to agree with each other.

[ElvenArcher]

First you complain stoically about disagreements in the forums then you tell him to ignore everything I said. If you're running for hypocrite of the year award the people defending crapdaria as a legitimate Warcraft expansion already got it, so tough luck.

Also, GeForce 460/Phenom X6, /thread:

[chazus]

Also, GeForce 460/Phenom X6, /thread:

...Seriously?

Empty zone with nothing going on, of course you're going to get good frames. My system probably would get about 200fps doing that same video/location (non vsync), but still drops to ~50 during heavy raid stuff.

People are saying an i5-3570K overclocked is needed for close to max frames on ultra in places like raids, which is eventually what MOST people do.

Ivy Bridge CPUs all run a standard 20-25 C hotter than Sandy because of their shitty soldering?

This is proof that you have no idea what you're talking about, and any 'computer experience' you likely have is from reading yahoo answers or some such.

Ivy Bridge runs only -marginally- hotter, and the only time real heat issues come into play are in extreme overclocking. It has nothing to do with soldering. These are not XBox 360s (Which I personally repair, due to crappy soldering). The heat is due to die size, and more transistors on a smaller plate. Moores law, etc.

[ElvenArcher]

Why the hell would you suggest an unlocked processor then if you EVEN AGREE overclocking causes it to overheat? An i7 Ivy runs close to 100C when pushing towards the 4.5 GHz because of the horrible Thermal Interface Material.

[chazus]

Why the hell would you suggest an unlocked processor then if you EVEN AGREE overclocking causes it to overheat? An i7 Ivy runs close to 100C when pushing towards the 4.5 GHz because of the horrible Thermal Interface Material.

*looks at his i7*
*looks at 50c temps while gaming*
*looks at his 4.4ghz*
wat?

Also, most TIM's are the same. You're probably confusing TIM (i.e. thermal paste/grease/arctic silver) with the heat plate connected to the die. But that's also unrelated, as it's the IB die that is the heat difference. Marginal as it is for -most- people.

I also didn't 'agree' that overclocking causes it to overheat. I simply pointed that a lot of people confuse "SB runs cooler at extreme overclocks than IB" with "My IB CPU runs hotter than a ham and cheese hot pocket at idle". Anything below like 4.6ghz is likely going to be the same.

[Killora]

Why the hell would you suggest an unlocked processor then if you EVEN AGREE overclocking causes it to overheat? An i7 Ivy runs close to 100C when pushing towards the 4.5 GHz because of the horrible Thermal Interface Material.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, really. An i7 ivy pushing 100c at 4.5ghz? Maybe with the worst cooler on the planet/improperly seated cooler.

Really, nothing more needs to be said. At this point let's just help the OP. Something we can't do till he replies with PSU information.

[Taotaisei]

Assuming your power supply can take it, for two separate price ranges I would choose either a 650ti Boost, or 7870 XT.

Using a forum thread that doesn't show any real data isn't much proof. This is a comparison of the 1075T vs 3570k. Specifically look at the Single Thread performance as core count will be equal in WoW (no more than 4 threads used).
http://anandtech.com/bench/Product/185?vs=701
It is nearly half. Now take into account that the FPS run in which WoW was tested is normally on a flight path to allow for as-close-to-identical runs as possible, and you can see that the CPU will definitely fall behind in raids or high pop areas to ~60% performance. A new gpu will certainly help in increasing FPS, but is it worth it to spend $250 or so upgrading the system? Frame rate will be higher than you currently have, but will probably still be choppy in WoW. In games other than WoW you will probably see a higher increase of speed as it becomes less CPU and more GPU bound.

Or at least I like to think I'm not a total fool.

I actually just got back from OCing a 3770k to 4.4ghz on air floating at about 64 degrees with a HAF 932 using prime95.

[ebah]

Get 7870 / gtx660 + some good 30$ cpu fan and oc the cpu and your good to go. With those u will run ultra 1600x900reso, atleast if you put useless shadows,sunshafts+ssaod off/low.

[Deleted]

ebah just gave you the best answer OP.