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  1. #1

    Ghostcrawler: "Hunter's Eyes of the Beast was 'bloat'"

    I have a lot of respect for GC, but his comments on Eyes of the Beast on Twitter were simply ridiculous.

    Eyes of the Beast, a skill that allowed hunters to channel a spell which gave them direct control of their pet, was a fun spell that many people enjoyed messing around with. You could play around with it in cities, you could use it for RP, and it was good fun running around as your favourite pet Yes it wasn't a DPS skill, or one you would even use in your rotation, but it was still a fun skill that thematically fitted the Hunter's kit of spells. Many classes have these type of spells, such as Mind Vision (Priests), Far Sight (Shaman), Water breathing (Warlock; used to be Shaman as well but that too got removed as 'bloat'). Spells that are just 'fun stuff' that sit on page 3 or 4 of your quickbar and are messed around with every now and again.

    I think GC seriously needs to examine exactly what he means by 'bloat' and be more precise in its definition, because his and my definition are very different. For me, Hunter bloat does not come from skills like Eyes of the Beast, which are almost out of combat fun stuff, but rather from in combat cooldowns like Bestial Wrath, Focus Fire, Rapid Fire, Dire Beast, Readiness etc. Especially ones with short to medium cooldowns of 30-120 seconds. This is why my hunter alt has taken some passive talents just to reduce the clutter - and whether I had Eyes of the Beast or not would make no difference. Bloat is not the total number of spells a class has but how many buttons and cooldowns we have to manage while fighting.

    Ultimately it effects us all, because from the sounding off which GC has given, I expect them to try and cut out more 'bloat'. I would be happy for them to merge my Druid's Swipe and Thrash abilities, but please lets not delete Aquatic Form because apparently it has no DPS gain in raids, and somehow 'overwhelms' the player with clutter. We don't need nannying, we can figure out what is and isn't useful in a competitive combat situation. :P
    "If you look out of the window as a human being, at nature, all of nature is unconditionally and absolutely beautiful wherever it is. Whether it's a jungle. Whether it's a desert. Whether it's the Arctic wastes. Or even your own back garden. The only ugly things you will ever see when you look out of the window are things made by man." - Stephen Fry

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire Yossarian's Avatar
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    I loved that spell, having it back like a glyph would be nice

  3. #3
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.

  4. #4
    So agreed, they should never cut down non-combat abilities, they are what gives a class identity. In combat we are all the same anyway. Bloat is caused either by too many abilities or by abilities that are worthless (like e.g. Holy Wrath for my prot pally). It was the use of fan skills like Eye of Killrog that made the BT scenario so awesome for locks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 08:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.
    Why on earth would you ever hot key eye of the beast?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I loved that spell, having it back like a glyph would be nice
    I know a few people who really loved that spell as well, and enjoyed running around as their pet. Unfortunately its probably not something GC and Blizzard considered when they decided to delete it, as sometimes they seem a bit too cold and mathematical in their decision making process. Speaking objectively, I don't think deleting Eyes of the Beast had any positive effect what so ever.

    But the debate does go a bit wider, I think we (as a community and the devs themselves) need to determine what we mean by bloat, before more cool stuff is lost to the void through developer recklessness. :P
    "If you look out of the window as a human being, at nature, all of nature is unconditionally and absolutely beautiful wherever it is. Whether it's a jungle. Whether it's a desert. Whether it's the Arctic wastes. Or even your own back garden. The only ugly things you will ever see when you look out of the window are things made by man." - Stephen Fry

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire RyokuchaMidori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    So agreed, they should never cut down non-combat abilities, they are what gives a class identity. In combat we are all the same anyway. Bloat is caused either by too many abilities or by abilities that are worthless (like e.g. Holy Wrath for my prot pally). It was the use of fan skills like Eye of Killrog that made the BT scenario so awesome for locks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 08:56 AM ----------



    Why on earth would you ever hot key eye of the beast?
    Yes, here the thing, while hunters have too many buttons to push in their rotation, eye of the beast is not one of them, so removing it does not solve the problem at all.
    "Skill, as the world of warcraft goes, is only in question between equals in pvp power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.
    Well Eyes of the Beast had a lot of fun uses, but boosting your DPS was not one of them. A lot of skills fall into that kind of bracket where their use is a bit more nuanced, lets not delete them all.

    I'm not against getting rid of bloat either, I can think of two examples from my Druid main already:
    Swipe and Thrash - two skills that basically do the same thing and could easily be merged.
    Sunfire and Moonfire - identical skills but with different graphics. Just double the damage and have the graphic change depending on what eclipse you are in.
    "If you look out of the window as a human being, at nature, all of nature is unconditionally and absolutely beautiful wherever it is. Whether it's a jungle. Whether it's a desert. Whether it's the Arctic wastes. Or even your own back garden. The only ugly things you will ever see when you look out of the window are things made by man." - Stephen Fry

  8. #8
    Bloodsail Admiral Well's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.
    You had Eyes of the Beast keybound?

    Since the answer is obviously no, your argument is invalid. The OP is right. They should not remove skills that are aesthetic or not to be used in combat. There's no justification for it.


    Pokemon X FC: 1435-4739-8696 Trainer Name: Evershade

  9. #9
    IT was a fun ability, too fun I'd imagine.

  10. #10
    I'd like to see eyes come back as a minor glyph. I'd be fine with them removing the ability to attack with the pet though when using it and would cancel the channel upon entering combat, either as pet or player.

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithshield View Post
    I have a lot of respect for GC, but his comments on Eyes of the Beast on Twitter were simply ridiculous.

    Eyes of the Beast, a skill that allowed hunters to channel a spell which gave them direct control of their pet, was a fun spell that many people enjoyed messing around with. You could play around with it in cities, you could use it for RP, and it was good fun running around as your favourite pet Yes it wasn't a DPS skill, or one you would even use in your rotation, but it was still a fun skill that thematically fitted the Hunter's kit of spells. Many classes have these type of spells, such as Mind Vision (Priests), Far Sight (Shaman), Water breathing (Warlock; used to be Shaman as well but that too got removed as 'bloat'). Spells that are just 'fun stuff' that sit on page 3 or 4 of your quickbar and are messed around with every now and again.

    I think GC seriously needs to examine exactly what he means by 'bloat' and be more precise in its definition, because his and my definition are very different. For me, Hunter bloat does not come from skills like Eyes of the Beast, which are almost out of combat fun stuff, but rather from in combat cooldowns like Bestial Wrath, Focus Fire, Rapid Fire, Dire Beast, Readiness etc. Especially ones with short to medium cooldowns of 30-120 seconds. This is why my hunter alt has taken some passive talents just to reduce the clutter - and whether I had Eyes of the Beast or not would make no difference. Bloat is not the total number of spells a class has but how many buttons and cooldowns we have to manage while fighting.

    Ultimately it effects us all, because from the sounding off which GC has given, I expect them to try and cut out more 'bloat'. I would be happy for them to merge my Druid's Swipe and Thrash abilities, but please lets not delete Aquatic Form because apparently it has no DPS gain in raids, and somehow 'overwhelms' the player with clutter. We don't need nannying, we can figure out what is and isn't useful in a competitive combat situation. :P
    I agree with the OP. I no longer play WoW, but when I did, I used EotB in raids for fun. I raided with a wolf pet called Morgenulv during WOTLK, and I used to EotB my pet, Shamans would use ghost wolf, and we used to chase each other while the RL was explaining tactics. Great fun.

    Also during Vanilla, I remember level 60 Horde Hunters using it to kill lowbies in Southshore, which was also fun in a way although I was the Alliance lowbie getting ganked.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

  12. #12
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Repeat rotations. Perform. Obey. Creativity will not be tolerated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    You had Eyes of the Beast keybound?

    Since the answer is obviously no, your argument is invalid. The OP is right. They should not remove skills that are aesthetic or not to be used in combat. There's no justification for it.
    No but it still took up UI space for a skill that never got used.

    What was its use? The only thing mentioned was larking around in cities, is that truly it?

  14. #14
    If you never used it, you didn't have to put it on your bars thus it used no UI space.

  15. #15
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.
    Well, Eyes of the Beast was mostly a fun skill first, not a very useful one, so if you found it fun you'd use it. Kind of like the rogue thing that makes you look like mobs, or like the druid travel skill, which, let's be honest, is not very useful either. However...
    It's not hard to find something useful for it:
    In PvP:
    -WSG, you're on the roof of enemy base, the flag is somewhere, but you don't know how many are with him, use eyes of beast, drop pet down and scout so you don't dive and die
    -Twin Peaks, same thing
    -AV, you know enemies are in your tower/bunker, but you don't know if you can take them, send pet, drop pet on side, some enemies will follow, drop control of pet and run in for flag

    In PvE:
    -using pet for pictures
    -using pet to check out hidden areas without having your character die from fall damage or not being able to go back, I remember using my pet to check the area behind Stratholme


    Overall, the possibilities are there, and the spell was useful. But first and foremost, it was fun, and that's what it was all about, wasn't it? That's what this game should be in the end, shouldn't it? Fun!

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 01:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    No but it still took up UI space for a skill that never got used.

    What was its use? The only thing mentioned was larking around in cities, is that truly it?
    So... you put all the skills on your bars, even those you never use? I don't, and here is your problem.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Repeat rotations. Perform. Obey. Creativity will not be tolerated.
    This. Street is a completely one-dimensional retard. He directs the game to cater to 5 or 10% of subscribers neglecting anything else, most likely he belonged/belongs to that minority. Wish Blizzard was as strict about getting rid of morons as Microsoft is...

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.
    ....wat?

    I use my rotation without the need for macros or hotkeys. People are so lazy!

    Back on topic, I want Eyes of the Beast back. I would love Pet Happiness too if I could (it was so fun and I found use for my food).

  18. #18
    Dreadlord Amirila's Avatar
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    Warlocks have Eye of Kilrogg, it basically serves the same purpose, but that's still in the game

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.
    http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=122825 - Start at 8:33

  20. #20
    I agree that spells like EotB is not what people consider bloat. Bloat are spells that you need to use in your rotation, but clutter it unnecessarily. Hunters have a reasonable main rotation/priority list, but add in on-use trinkets, dire beast, troll racial, readiness, etc. and it becomes horribly bloated.

    I never used EotB and don't miss it personally, but I never had a problem with it either. It just wasn't on my bars, like feed and tame pet, which I never use either. That's not bloat.

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