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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by JhanZ View Post
    what about it is excuses? it's all facts, thrall has permanently damaged the Horde in various ways

    To deny this is to deny lore. You sound the worst, IMO. You cannot make one post that isn't completely biased.
    Thrall left the Horde in better shape than he found it

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezarus View Post
    Thrall left the Horde in better shape than he found it
    Yes, and he planted the seeds to make it terrible.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by JhanZ View Post
    Yes, and he planted the seeds to make it terrible.
    He's also saved Azeroth from being destroyed by Deathwing. Do you expect him to be perfect and never make mistakes?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezarus View Post
    He's also saved Azeroth from being destroyed by Deathwing. Do you expect him to be perfect and never make mistakes?
    And here is the irony of the playerbase with these BS opinions they've formed over the years, claiming that Thrall is a mary sue and perfect and green jesus, yet in the same leaf trying to make it publicly known the mistakes Thrall has made... what double standards, claiming a character is a mary sue AND YET makes mistakes.

    I think I just heard a universe implode.

  5. #65
    Nice vid. I wonder where the alliance story picks up, as this seems to take place before the Alliance spies make contact with Vol'jin.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    And here is the irony of the playerbase with these BS opinions they've formed over the years, claiming that Thrall is a mary sue and perfect and green jesus, yet in the same leaf trying to make it publicly known the mistakes Thrall has made... what double standards, claiming a character is a mary sue AND YET makes mistakes.

    I think I just heard a universe implode.
    Everything taken together, Thrall is most assuredly not a Mary Sue. He fucked up with Garrosh, he knows he fucked up with Garrosh, and he has ruined a lot of his relationships just on that one move. Not something that happens to a Mary Sue.

    But I wouldn't call those opinions BS. Most are saying he is one because of what happened in Cata. In Cataclysm, he was definetly a Mary Sue. He went from a good Shaman to THE Shaman within a couple of months for no explained reason, and we spend a questline making him perfect. Sounds pretty OP and outta left wing.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by babo7000 View Post
    Everything taken together, Thrall is most assuredly not a Mary Sue. He fucked up with Garrosh, he knows he fucked up with Garrosh, and he has ruined a lot of his relationships just on that one move. Not something that happens to a Mary Sue.

    But I wouldn't call those opinions BS. Most are saying he is one because of what happened in Cata. In Cataclysm, he was definetly a Mary Sue. He went from a good Shaman to THE Shaman within a couple of months for no explained reason, and we spend a questline making him perfect. Sounds pretty OP and outta left wing.
    its more the case people don't want to acknowledge the full story of events around characters or take account of the pros and cons, and just use pieces of information they hear or see.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    Not fishing for excuses just pointing out bad plotlines

    This whole arc has been a joke from the start and it only happened because people didnt take to garrosh prickly nature and that blizz needed a named baddie to end an expac that most was calling a joke when it was announced
    blizz was planning to make garrosh a villain since his step up as a warchief, maybe long before that:

    garrosh started his reign as a warchief by killing the beloved tauren hero. wether he should take the blame or not isn't the issue, he killed cairne in a duel he suggested it should be to death;
    you see vol'jin swearing to kill garrosh in the first 5 levels of gameplay if you roll a troll;
    many levels later, but still in the same expansion, you see morgor saying this: "Zaela ... treacherous fool ... have you sold your soul to the Horde? Are you and I so different? Cast your lot with Hellscream, then. See where he takes you."; when a fel orc criticizes you, it means you are that bad;

    garrosh was not chosen as a villain because people hadn't liked him as a warchief. he was chosen as the warchief so he could turn into the villain.
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  9. #69
    Yeah, this is what I wanted to see (the vid, not the inevitable bashing lol)! I'm so glad I roll both sides... and that my horde main is a troll lol. Watched the vid once all the way through to experience it, and then bounced through it a second time to study sections. I might just be reading into it too much, but from quest text in the Alliance version of this quest line and actions and emotes from this vid, Vol'jin might be getting a slight model update again. Quest text states he's wearing bandages over his neck, and an emote he does after talking to Baine in the horde vid has him stabbing a spear in the ground even though he's currently unarmed. Not counting on anything changing though lol.

    Ugh... the scene after defending Sen'jin.... in context...with the voice acting....the feels you are inducing Blizzard! *dies*

  10. #70
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    Garrosh falls into the same category as Arthas. This was even raised in tides of war, between Thrall, Jaina and Kelecgos, how Jaina knew well of one tyrent who rose to do unspeakable things, someone close to her, and so she knows the kind of person Garrosh is. This was Goldens way of more or less saying Garrosh is as bad As Arthas was.
    She also made a point in an interview just how weak and malleable Garrosh is at this core, and when someone is so weak on the inside, they are easily lead astray by things like power and influence.

    People, Garrosh's fans, have been strug over by Garrosh and his outward bravado, that they could never see how weak a character he was at his core. Speaks volumes when you don't even know the character you claim to love.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    blizz was planning to make garrosh a villain since his step up as a warchief, maybe long before that:

    garrosh started his reign as a warchief by killing the beloved tauren hero. wether he should take the blame or not isn't the issue, he killed cairne in a duel he suggested it should be to death;
    you see vol'jin swearing to kill garrosh in the first 5 levels of gameplay if you roll a troll;
    many levels later, but still in the same expansion, you see morgor saying this: "Zaela ... treacherous fool ... have you sold your soul to the Horde? Are you and I so different? Cast your lot with Hellscream, then. See where he takes you."; when a fel orc criticizes you, it means you are that bad;

    garrosh was not chosen as a villain because people hadn't liked him as a warchief. he was chosen as the warchief so he could turn into the villain.
    So you basically saying that this isnt badly handled fanservice, but blizzard is simply that bad at creating entertaining storyline ?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    So you basically saying that this isnt badly handled fanservice, but blizzard is simply that bad at creating entertaining storyline ?
    I believe this was planned all along, as tides of war gave very clear evidense to the fact of just what kind of a character Garrosh was, and when you take the time to look back on it, you see it as true. He is weak on the inside, he's that same crying little brat sat at the fire in nagrand crying for his daddy. All the rest is just outta bravado and people were so fixated on that they didn't see what weakness of character inside, just like they didn't with Arthas.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    So you basically saying that this isnt badly handled fanservice, but blizzard is simply that bad at creating entertaining storyline ?
    It's probably both. Blizz is getting better at storytelling, but it' going to be a while until we get another really great bad guy like Arthas. As for Garrosh...well... I'm just letting my Alliance side out and saying I'm more than ready to smear his face across the floor whenever the opportunity walks by. As for Horde side.... he's ugly and has a tiny head.

    K I'm done.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    So you basically saying that this isnt badly handled fanservice, but blizzard is simply that bad at creating entertaining storyline ?
    Well WoW certainly has its bad or cringeworthy moments, but all in all I'd say I'm still enjoying the storyline, regardless of whether they knew Garrosh was going evil all the way back in Wrath or whether the legitimately contemplated having him shape up. They have said though they always planned for him to be temporary, but didn't know WHEN he would leave the throne when they put him on it.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I believe this was planned all along, as tides of war gave very clear evidense to the fact of just what kind of a character Garrosh was, and when you take the time to look back on it, you see it as true. He is weak on the inside, he's that same crying little brat sat at the fire in nagrand crying for his daddy. All the rest is just outta bravado and people were so fixated on that they didn't see what weakness of character inside, just like they didn't with Arthas.
    The problem for me isnt that they killing garrosh. Its way they do.
    If story was handled more serious, showing us actuall difrences in mentalities of many orcs, and having real clash between thrall vision and garrosh vision, it would be cool. If theyactually managed to put some emotions there, some deepth showing that garrosh really does what he think its best it would be cool. Instead we have mind controlled kor'kron (who after mop will be Giant plothole), basically show orcs as mindless morons who follow the biggest guy. Oh and typicall everyone vs bad guy type of gangbang. Remember promises of real villain who is simply evil ? Nope, old gods. Remember when WE were supposed to be bad guys in MoP ? Nope once again we are godsent. My problem with this story that its not only generic to bone but also carries typical lesson/morale of 80's He-man show (drugs make your problem go away !!). + lets face it garrosh story is exactly same as kael'thas (note kael was a little more likeable before insanityzation), with a little grom twist. What's the point of repeating exactly same stories over and over again ?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    The problem for me isnt that they killing garrosh. Its way they do.
    If story was handled more serious, showing us actuall difrences in mentalities of many orcs, and having real clash between thrall vision and garrosh vision, it would be cool. If theyactually managed to put some emotions there, some deepth showing that garrosh really does what he think its best it would be cool. Instead we have mind controlled kor'kron (who after mop will be Giant plothole), basically show orcs as mindless morons who follow the biggest guy. Oh and typicall everyone vs bad guy type of gangbang. Remember promises of real villain who is simply evil ? Nope, old gods. Remember when WE were supposed to be bad guys in MoP ? Nope once again we are godsent. My problem with this story that its not only generic to bone but also carries typical lesson/morale of 80's He-man show (drugs make your problem go away !!). + lets face it garrosh story is exactly same as kael'thas (note kael was a little more likeable before insanityzation), with a little grom twist. What's the point of repeating exactly same stories over and over again ?
    In regards to the clash of orc mentalities, we may well be getting that in 5.4 considering what Thrall is up to.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    The problem for me isnt that they killing garrosh. Its way they do.
    If story was handled more serious, showing us actuall difrences in mentalities of many orcs, and having real clash between thrall vision and garrosh vision, it would be cool. If theyactually managed to put some emotions there, some deepth showing that garrosh really does what he think its best it would be cool. Instead we have mind controlled kor'kron (who after mop will be Giant plothole), basically show orcs as mindless morons who follow the biggest guy. Oh and typicall everyone vs bad guy type of gangbang. Remember promises of real villain who is simply evil ? Nope, old gods. Remember when WE were supposed to be bad guys in MoP ? Nope once again we are godsent. My problem with this story that its not only generic to bone but also carries typical lesson/morale of 80's He-man show (drugs make your problem go away !!). + lets face it garrosh story is exactly same as kael'thas (note kael was a little more likeable before insanityzation), with a little grom twist. What's the point of repeating exactly same stories over and over again ?
    I actually agree with most of this. I to am kind of pissed off that blizzard hasn't made any effort to show a split with the demographic of the orcs who side with the Thrall way of doing things and the garrosh way of doing tbings. The only example of this came from the orc shaman and orc warrior in the hut outside orgrimmar, who believed in two different means to understanding things, and it clearly showed the duality between the two kinds of orcs... and that was it, in all current events we've seen nothing of the kinds of orcs that follow Thralls example, yet in this current arch, now would be the most logical time to have this mentality brought into the story, show orc battling orc with two different beliefs.

    It just strikes me that with the troll uprising, the blood elves and planned attack on org, the devs ran out of room to do anything else, which is just poor writing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 07:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    In regards to the clash of orc mentalities, we may well be getting that in 5.4 considering what Thrall is up to.
    But of all times to have this, now would be the time for it to be shown, we've had all though cataclysm and mists of pandaria to have this kind of split between the two sides to develop, and instead all blizzard has done it cause the split to be about all other races of the horde against the orcs, which makes no dam sense given the example of the two orcs outside org I just mentioned.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    The problem for me isnt that they killing garrosh. Its way they do.
    If story was handled more serious, showing us actuall difrences in mentalities of many orcs, and having real clash between thrall vision and garrosh vision, it would be cool. If theyactually managed to put some emotions there, some deepth showing that garrosh really does what he think its best it would be cool. Instead we have mind controlled kor'kron (who after mop will be Giant plothole), basically show orcs as mindless morons who follow the biggest guy. Oh and typicall everyone vs bad guy type of gangbang. Remember promises of real villain who is simply evil ? Nope, old gods. Remember when WE were supposed to be bad guys in MoP ? Nope once again we are godsent. My problem with this story that its not only generic to bone but also carries typical lesson/morale of 80's He-man show (drugs make your problem go away !!). + lets face it garrosh story is exactly same as kael'thas (note kael was a little more likeable before insanityzation), with a little grom twist. What's the point of repeating exactly same stories over and over again ?
    Are there even any stories left to be told at this point? I'd argue that by now after centuries of writing all plots have been told in some form.
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  19. #79
    They did fail on the idea that 'WE are the villains' or even that both factions are equally responsible for the war.

    Why does this newest wave of escalation start? Garrosh mana bombs Theramore. Even though nobody in the Horde leadership but him and Malkorok was really into the idea. From day 1 this arc was planned to be pinned not on the entire Horde, but on Hellscream.

    Then we land on Pandaria. Ok, Jade Forest. We are the bad guys to an extent. We both befriend a race and wage a war by proxxy. But the Jinyu on alliance side were facing being wiped out entirely by the hozen without our help. Was there ever an explanation on why the hozen are being so aggressive to the Jinyu? I'm not sure, and my playthrough on horde side didn't really enlighten me as to WHY they were fighting in the first place either. But we wage our proxxy war and all hell breaks loose with the sha of doubt. Ok, we're to blame for that.

    But then we help clean it up, and all the other sha outbreaks. I've heard that supposedly some lore suggests the mantid queen being possessed by the sha of fear had nothing to do with us and was already going on, but I have yet to confirm that. In either case we help stop the sha, the mantid, the mogu invasions into the Vale and the Thunder King, the latter two we had nothing to do with starting at all, and the mantid swarm as well IF it's true their queen was already possessed and it wasn't us that set the sha of fear loose.

    Anyway after Jade Forest we're all doing nothing but good. Then comes 5.1, where we...wage a battle on the coast, but don't really do all that much damage to the land. This is where the biggest morality gray thing for the alliance happens all expansion, the purge of dalaran. Hate it or love it, condone or condemn it, it's really the only big 'bad' thing we've done.

    5.2? We deal with a returned evil.

    5.3, we're off Pandaria. And there's a hole in the vale which is pinned on Hellscream in the Taran Zhu conversation.

    Garrosh is set up be the big bad, with even 5.0 having hints of this, and cementing it in 5.1. In 5.3 even horde players are rebelling openly.

    So are we the bad guys? No. Is the Alliance portrayed as equally morally gray as the Horde for fighting in this war? No. Is the Horde portrayed as the bad guy? Only the Garrosh loyalists, who are npc bad guys now. Where is the alluded to destruction our war will leave on Pandaria? The goblins dug a hole in the vale. That's it really.

    Blizzard had promised, or at least advertised, something different this expansion. But really the only thing different about it is that the big bad is splintering off from a playable faction throughout the storyline as it unfolds rather than being the obvious last boss from day 1.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 01:14 PM ----------

    And now orcs know how it feels to oddly enough have their own races lore development on the back burner. Never thought I'd see that day.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    So you basically saying that this isnt badly handled fanservice, but blizzard is simply that bad at creating entertaining storyline ?
    garrosh crazy dumbasseness started in the comics at the peace summit btw thrall and varian, from that point on he has gone down and in cata he was completely ruined becoming absolutely not credible.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

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