View Poll Results: Will Lordaeron be restored?

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  • Yes

    116 18.89%
  • No

    498 81.11%
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  1. #321
    The Patient SirMeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    That is an illusion of free will.
    I imagine a newly resurected forsaken that just wants to peace out to somewhere doing nothing would get killed or forced into service too.
    There are undead who are not Sylvanas aligned and currently there seems to be no one actively trying to eradicate them so...
    (some cases of this: Argent Crusade has undead members, as does Darkmoon Faire. I doubt no one really has bothered to recruit Augustus the Touched either. Meryl Felstorm has never been a part of the Forsaken either.)


    edit: my point is that since not all undead are Forsaken aligned I doubt undead would just kill someone for refusing to work with them initially. After all they could be converted later. Every undead IS quite probably risen to be a recruit, though.
    Last edited by SirMeo; 2013-04-14 at 05:06 PM.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Actually she does have a rightfull claim to the throne. But the fact that nobody cares kinda nullifies it.
    She must have some goddamn good reason to have not been showed up untill now, or noone will take her seriously. But being locked up in Undercity is kinda a good reason for not showing up anywhere. This said, I wonder why Sylvanas would want to keep alive a person that can rightfully claim ownership of her land.
    What makes you think she's locked up below Undercity? There's no proof to suggest she's locked up below. And Sylvannas didn't even take lordaeron till a little bit after Arthas' invasion, so if someone did lock her up, it couldn't have been the dark lady.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-14 at 12:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SirMeo View Post
    There are undead who are not Sylvanas aligned and currently there seems to be no one actively trying to eradicate them so...
    (some cases of this: Argent Crusade has undead members, as does Darkmoon Faire. I doubt no one really has bothered to recruit Augustus the Touched either. Meryl Felstorm has never been a part of the Forsaken either.)
    Meryl Felstorm is on self imposed exile for the demon inside of him.

  3. #323
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SherbertLand View Post
    What makes you think she's locked up below Undercity? There's no proof to suggest she's locked up below. And Sylvannas didn't even take lordaeron till a little bit after Arthas' invasion, so if someone did lock her up, it couldn't have been the dark lady.
    Copy from Wowwiki, article about Calia Menethil:
    The release of the RPG Horde Player's Guide may have shed some new light on this story. In one of many short stories, a paladin by the name of Andarin tries to infiltrate the Undercity to free prisoners. To his shame, he is quickly discovered by a fallen priest named Trevor. The undead makes him 'an offer he can't refuse': in return for helping Andarin, Andarin must help Trevor free some of the Argent Dawn's prisoners. The paladin ponders the situation but finally agrees, and together they descend into the city. After fighting guards and abominations, the strange duo decides fighting the prison guards will not work and come up with a plan: Andarin will distract the guards and Trevor will free the prisoners. Knowing he has no other choice, the paladin agrees. Trevor quickly manages to get ahold of a keyring and opens the door of a cell in which a girl was locked up. The girl recognizes the Forsaken and is shocked at his appearance, but Trevor simply bows, saying "Good evening, my princess." Given the statement and his standing before becoming one of the Forsaken, it is possible he is showing deference to Princess Calia.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Lilian Voss?
    She has power to back herself up. Plus enough of her original self remains. She is a somewhat special case and her interests do directly oppose the forsaken anyways because she wants to stop people from being trapped in the hellish state of undeath that she had forced upon her. My guess is that she knows she isn't strong enough to take on the forsaken yet so she attacks the remnants of the scourge first.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Copy from Wowwiki, article about Calia Menethil:
    RPG books are written by people that have same idea about lore as Northem, they just filled it with so much of their fanwank that Blizzard had to say that it is not a canon source of lore.

    There is only one place for Calia Menethil if she is alive, and that is on a chopping block in the Lordaeron City courtyard.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Copy from Wowwiki:
    The Warcraft rpg books aren't canon.

    It even says it at the top of the page you took that quote from.

  7. #327
    The Patient SirMeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SherbertLand View Post
    Meryl Felstorm is on self imposed exile for the demon inside of him.
    Yes I know, I was just pointing out that there are undead who are not Forsaken and have continued to exist despite this, so this "all undead must be on our side or they're against us" is not really a thing that is a thing.

    edit: please don't use this to derail this thread into anything stupid please please please i was just making a list out of undead who are undead and not "Forsaken" in that sense they'd serve Sylvanas and nothing else
    Last edited by SirMeo; 2013-04-14 at 05:12 PM.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    Keep in mind that only about 10 years have passed in-game since the events of Warcraft 3, if memory serves.

    Well consider this scenario:

    Alleria comes back. Cures Sylvanas from undeath against her will. The three sisters become the leaders of the High Elven race.

    Life seeps into Lordaeron slowly, as the efforts of the Cenarion Circle pays off, and the Forsaken are in a weakened state with Sylvanas gone.

    The Horde, with Garrosh presumably gone, is also less bent on controlling the land around Lordaeron. They struggle to get back on their feet and restore some of the damage done back in Kalimdor.

    The Forsaken (now even more Forsaken) move to Northrend (with phasing involved obviously). Undercity is abandoned due to some blight that simply won't disappear until years have passed. But the rest of the land is cured and end up partly to the Alliance and partly to the Horde. The Alliance reforms Stromgarde, while the Horde remains in Quel'thalas.
    That sounds awesome.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by SirMeo View Post
    Yes I know, I was just pointing out that there are undead who are not Forsaken and have continued to exist despite this, so this "all undead must be on our side or they're against us" is not really a thing that is a thing.

    edit: please don't use this to derail this thread into anything stupid please please please i was just making a list out of undead who are undead and not "Forsaken" in that sense they'd serve Sylvanas and nothing else
    There are some special cases but they seem to have found protection under new groups such as the argent crusade. The forsaken generally don't seem to allow those undead who aren't aligned with them to leave the bulwark. As for Meryl, he was never associated with the forsaken. He was fatally wounded during the original troll wars and used necromancy to keep himself "alive". I doubt the forsaken know he exists and if they do, they don't want to waste the effort on such a powerful individual.
    Last edited by delus; 2013-04-15 at 01:17 AM.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    There are some special cases but they seem to have found protection under new groups such as the argent crusade. The forsaken generally don't allow those undead who aren't aligned with them to leave the bulwark. As for Meryl, he was never associated with the forsaken. He was fatally wounded during the original troll wars and used necromancy to keep himself "alive". I doubt the forsaken know he exists and if they do, they don't want to waste the effort on such a powerful individual.
    It would also be the equivalent to the orcs deciding to go out and find Rexxar.

  11. #331
    The Patient SirMeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    There are some special cases but they seem to have found protection under new groups such as the argent crusade. The forsaken generally don't allow those undead who aren't aligned with them to leave the bulwark. As for Meryl, he was never associated with the forsaken. He was fatally wounded during the original troll wars and used necromancy to keep himself "alive". I doubt the forsaken know he exists and if they do, they don't want to waste the effort on such a powerful individual.
    I told you to not derail into discussion about him and yet you do ´_`
    but anyway maybe you are right maybe not - the point WAS that there is no real in-game evidence suggesting that there is "with us or against us" in regards of new forsaken and since there are undead that are not Undercity aligned... I mean if it makes sense for you then you are free to believe so I think, but because there was a blue post explicitly explaining that no there is not even that "charming" that was at one point under a big debate going on, people can also think that after getting over their initial confusion of being resurrected undead can do whatever they want, and until new evidence or retcons come up this is not really a debate that we can settle and you shouldn't really use your opinion as a fact. HEADCANON AWAY!! To me the evidence suggests otherwise.

    In a way it would make sense (after all they ARE risen as a recruits, they don't do it because oh I saw you had a huge accident with my sword getting stuck in your stomach and I thought you deserve another chance ) but on the other hand not (even if they decline initially they could be tried to be recruited later on, freedom is kind of a Thing for them)
    Last edited by SirMeo; 2013-04-14 at 05:39 PM.

  12. #332
    The Lightbringer leaks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    There are some special cases but they seem to have found protection under new groups such as the argent crusade. The forsaken generally don't allow those undead who aren't aligned with them to leave the bulwark..
    Yes they do, stop making this shit up. It's already been pointed out that the very first quests in forsaken starting area prove you wrong.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Yes they do, stop making this shit up. It's already been pointed out that the very first quests in forsaken starting area prove you wrong.
    You mean what the val'kyr say? You believe everything you're told?

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    You mean what the val'kyr say? You believe everything you're told?
    She's not the only one that says it and it's more evidence than you've presented to the contrary. So no I don't believe everything I'm told which is why I'm calling your bullshit right now. I'd like to see evidence of your claim.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  15. #335
    Parts of wpl and epl are already been ruined. I liked the atmosphere there, a dead and gloomy zone with zombies and the like roaming there. They better not ruin lordaeron too.
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  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    She's not the only one that says it and it's more evidence than you've presented to the contrary. So no I don't believe everything I'm told which is why I'm calling your bullshit right now. I'd like to see evidence of your claim.
    From the CDEV:

    Q:Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val'kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

    A:Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

    A blizzard intern later confirmed that returning to the grave means the forsaken will return you to the grave (with violence)
    Last edited by delus; 2013-04-14 at 06:11 PM.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not?
    They find out the truth. Some of them dont like it, so they die.

  18. #338
    The Lightbringer leaks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val'kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

    Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

    A blizzard intern later confirmed that returning to the grave means the forsaken will return you to the grave (with violence)
    Oh ok a "Blizzard intern" confirmed it. That's all the evidence I need!
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    They find out the truth. Some of them dont like it, so they die.
    That was a quote from cdev q&a, not my words.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-14 at 01:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Oh ok a "Blizzard intern" confirmed it. That's all the evidence I need!
    Omacron from scrolls of lore who was speaking on behalf of Blizzard if you must know.

  20. #340
    The Lightbringer Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    1) May be, but the dialogue they had heavily implied that Sylvanas was going to alter Koltira's mind to suit her wants and needs. How she's doing it is another question.
    2) Free will implies choice, but since Sylvanas is willing to go against this by altering Koltira's mind, then there are reasons to question her free will policy among the Forsaken. It's not the first time she has been hiding her true colours and considering what a hypocrite she has become since Cataclysm, her messing with other people's minds are far from being out of the question.
    What you're putting on the table are assumptions, educated guesses at best. Theorizing about stuff and discussing the possibilities with other people is fine, but you can't really argue for a theory with assumptions alone. You need something concrete. We have some very hard evidence on Forsaken being about free will, you're going to need more than guesswork to disprove that. When Blizz actually show Sylvanas with this 'mind-control machine' of yours ingame, in the books, in whatever canon material, then you have a case.

    Right now all that can be said with certainty about Koltira is that he was trusted with the command of a Forsaken operation along with troops and supplies, and he placed them all at an unacceptable risk and is now being punished for it, so that he won't do it again. A newly risen is given the power to do whatever they please, but Koltira had made his choice when he accepted the position in Andorhal. He can't change his course afterwards and expect it's fine with his superiors. That's not how organizations work.
    Last edited by Zuben; 2013-04-14 at 06:18 PM.
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