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  1. #1
    Blademaster deathsreaper's Avatar
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    How to make the world first race more competitive

    Lets face it, right now the world first race in raiding is not competitive or really exciting as it may have once been. This is due to the extremes that the world first guild go through. Due to this extreme it has pushed Blizzard to really put in some very extreme fights in hopes of slowing down the race. The world first guilds are burning through content at record pace which has forced Blizzard to release content at a faster pace than they ever have had to. The community is always saying that the content is to easy and that is just not the case. Guilds are just putting far more time into the game. Over a 100 hours a week for the world top guilds during the world first race.
    I believe that it would be healthy for the game if Blizzard would pull back on the world first guilds to slow their progression down and in that turn would bring more guilds into the race. This is how Blizzard could accomplish that. Blizzard should put in a max of 50 wipes per boss per week. How this would work is when a guild comes to a said boss and they wipe on it 50 times trying to progress through that boss every character on those players accounts would have to wait to the following week before they would be able to attempt the boss again. This would pull the number of attempts that the world first raiding guilds could do down forcing guilds to be much more efficient. This would also bring in a lot of guilds that are just as good as the world first raiding guilds but do not have the time to put in to stay in the race. This would create a much more competitive field and a longer race instead of this two man and one man sprints we have now.
    I really hope that Blizzard would take this approach. It may not be popular with many of the people in the community, however it has been shown that what the player base wants is not what is always best for the game. I truly believe this would be a huge step in the right direction for the raiding community.

  2. #2
    I like the idea.. in a vacuum. In practical application, it just wouldn't work. Part of why those guilds are world first guilds are because of the effort they put into not just the number of pulls, but the quality of pulls. Over a set period of time, most everyday guilds will put in about the same number of pulls (maybe a 1.3 or 1.5x deal) as world first guilds. The big difference is that world guilds will put in the time earlier, and will make better adjustments at each pull. Remember also that those guilds often find the bugs/issues that normal guilds will likely never experience, which is related to those long hours.

    World guilds will do all of this with less gear, less information, and more at stake (existentially), and so the pressure will always be there for them to do what ever is necessary to keep the edge.

  3. #3
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Faster release of new content and patches is not all about raiding.
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  4. #4
    Exactly. Never raided a day in my life. Full quest/lore player here. So when I complete a zone in a day, and have nothing to look forward too, I unsub after the first month, and come back when a patch hits, IF it's not a raid only patch.

  5. #5
    There really is an easy fix for this, but the community would hate it. Abolish ptr testing. Internal
    testing only. The race to world first probably would only last maybe a week longer, not the time
    it took back during the earlier expansions. Gamers have just gotten better, and have more tools
    now, then back then.

  6. #6
    The Patient
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    The community is always saying that the content is to easy and that is just not the case.
    Then find a way to make things harder on the community at large. How often do you hear the top guilds saying the content is too easy? It's always the people who read about the top guilds, then leap to conclusions that the game is too easy because they killed a boss in a few days/weeks. I don't watch basketball and think "LeBron James scores a lot of points, the NBA should raise the hoops."

    This would also bring in a lot of guilds that are just as good as the world first raiding guilds but do not have the time to put in to stay in the race.
    I think you're overestimating the number of guilds that are on a world-first level.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by deathsreaper View Post
    Lets face it, right now the world first race in raiding is not competitive or really exciting as it may have once been. This is due to the extremes that the world first guild go through. Due to this extreme it has pushed Blizzard to really put in some very extreme fights in hopes of slowing down the race. The world first guilds are burning through content at record pace which has forced Blizzard to release content at a faster pace than they ever have had to. The community is always saying that the content is to easy and that is just not the case. Guilds are just putting far more time into the game. Over a 100 hours a week for the world top guilds during the world first race.
    I believe that it would be healthy for the game if Blizzard would pull back on the world first guilds to slow their progression down and in that turn would bring more guilds into the race. This is how Blizzard could accomplish that. Blizzard should put in a max of 50 wipes per boss per week. How this would work is when a guild comes to a said boss and they wipe on it 50 times trying to progress through that boss every character on those players accounts would have to wait to the following week before they would be able to attempt the boss again. This would pull the number of attempts that the world first raiding guilds could do down forcing guilds to be much more efficient. This would also bring in a lot of guilds that are just as good as the world first raiding guilds but do not have the time to put in to stay in the race. This would create a much more competitive field and a longer race instead of this two man and one man sprints we have now.
    I really hope that Blizzard would take this approach. It may not be popular with many of the people in the community, however it has been shown that what the player base wants is not what is always best for the game. I truly believe this would be a huge step in the right direction for the raiding community.
    This idea has been tried and shot down because guilds circumvent by progressing on alts before going on mains. It was a pain.

  8. #8
    Brewmaster Advent's Avatar
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    I think the world first race would be more competitive if alts weren't in the meta game of hardcore world first raiding. But there's not practical, all-encompassing solution to that unless all the top guilds unanimously agreed to not participate in mandatory alt raiding.
    A typical raid leader command would be something like "Yo Scrub, why don't you YOLO 1337 yards to the left because the boss's Swag is about to hit us in 3 seconds".
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta View Post
    Oh my god, a company tries to put some lore flavor into the game mechanics, all is lost, whatever shall we do without a whole 1% of crit or haste.
    Quick, call Ukraine and Russia, let them know to put their conflict on standby because Touch of Elune is BULLSHIT!

  9. #9
    Blademaster deathsreaper's Avatar
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    I do agree that the world top guilds put in a lot of effort and are efficient. However to say that the best players in the world are in the world first raiding guilds is something that I can just not agree with. There are a lot of your best players in the world in the 60 ranked guilds. As far as saying that the world first guilds having less wipes than all the other guilds is just not true. While they may be close if you look you will find that there are a lot of guilds that are downing bosses in less attempts than the world first guilds. If Blizzard was to limit the amount of wipes per boss each week I bet you that the world first race would look different.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    This idea has been tried and shot down because guilds circumvent by progressing on alts before going on mains. It was a pain.
    Well in his idea, he mentions that it would be per account so if you wipe 50 times on your alt then you would have to wait until next week to do it on your main.

    Edit: I still doubt limiting attempts would help with competition. It would slow down the race for sure, but not only will it slow down the high end guilds, it will slow down the guilds who are trying to get in on the worlds first race as well.
    Last edited by Togarox; 2013-09-11 at 06:49 PM.

  11. #11
    Blademaster deathsreaper's Avatar
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    Cirque that is why their entire account would be locked after the 50 wipes that way they would be forced to play on their mains. Unless they just bought a second account.
    This may end the alt raiding mandatory unless all the top raiders would be willing to have two accounts and even then they would only get 100 attempts in on a boss in a week. I have seen some of the world first guilds spend over 300 wipes on a boss so I just don't see them going to that extreme.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by deathsreaper View Post
    While they may be close if you look you will find that there are a lot of guilds that are downing bosses in less attempts than the world first guilds.
    This has a lot to do with the fact that once the worlds first guilds down the bosses and release their strategy, other guilds copy it requiring less wipes to figure everything out.

  13. #13
    Blademaster deathsreaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togarox View Post
    This has a lot to do with the fact that once the worlds first guilds down the bosses and release their strategy, other guilds copy it requiring less wipes to figure everything out.
    While that is true, it is also true that a lot of bosses use old mechanics just thrown in a slightly different way. Every guild that downs all the heroic content has seen so many strats that figuring out new boss fights is not too much of an issue. I just don't think if they made this change that is would be a two man and one man race just longer. I see there being several guilds in the running. Just look at the races that the guilds have had through Dragon Soul heroic as one example. The World first guild did not win the speed race showing that if the content time is limited there would be much more competition during the world first race.

  14. #14
    artificially slowing ppl down is always a negative thing and will not help, but only frustrate me if I have to wait a whole week for 50 wipes. yes, this way wipes will matter more, but with resets being a whole week there's no way this goes through.

    world race is mostly boring because the competition is very small as most of the best guilds have quit bar couple still active. there used to be a time when top20 was filled with the absolute best guilds in the world, now you can even fill top5 with guilds of that caliber.

    not saying the current guilds in top20 are bad - they have deserved their spots there, but they simply don't have the presence the best guilds always had.

  15. #15
    The Patient
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    Just look at the races that the guilds have had through Dragon Soul heroic as one example. The World first guild did not win the speed race showing that if the content time is limited there would be much more competition during the world first race.
    It's not so much a question of speed on a world first, it's a matter of teamwork, responsibility, and intelligence. Saying that one guild is better than another because they downed bosses faster in months-old content is not a good measuring stick.

    From all your posts, it seems like you are implying that world-first guilds are not necessarily more skilled than anyone else, they simply have more time to devote than anyone else. I would argue they are more skilled AND have more time.

    However to say that the best players in the world are in the world first raiding guilds is something that I can just not agree with. There are a lot of your best players in the world in the 60 ranked guilds.
    How exactly are you quantifying "best players in the world?"

  16. #16
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I'm not sure, now that I've thought about it a while, that the problem of competition in the world first race is really a problem at all. It's such a tiny group of people competing for it I can't see any justification for having developers spend any time on it whatsoever. Even if you triple or quadruple the number of guilds viable for the race it's still a very tiny group of people.
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  17. #17
    Mechagnome Mr. Casual's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drobu View Post
    There really is an easy fix for this, but the community would hate it. Abolish ptr testing. Internal
    testing only. The race to world first probably would only last maybe a week longer, not the time
    it took back during the earlier expansions. Gamers have just gotten better, and have more tools
    now, then back then.
    yea was thinking this, even though in the end it wouldnt be a good idea because all the potential bugs that could slip through, but letting people beat the crap out of boss for "X" amount of time during ptr sure does dull the world first race

  18. #18
    It's not a race if they artificially slow down progress.

    If people want a chance at world first kills, they've got to sacrifice.

  19. #19
    Blademaster deathsreaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimson View Post

    How exactly are you quantifying "best players in the world?"
    The same way that the best players in the world are not always on the number one team in the world.

  20. #20
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    Not running the PTR would be the potential fix for the issue, but it would require more internal testing, which would lead to less communication with the playerbase among other issues.

    Really a catch-22 scenario no matter what solutions are proposed.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

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