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  1. #1

    Our Blood DK gets wrecked. Help me understand why.

    Edit: I've gotten all the information i need. Thanks folks.
    Last edited by Gerudo; 2013-04-14 at 12:57 AM.

  2. #2
    Just off of glancing at her armory, she is using T14 DPS for her two-set. If she is using this for tanking then something is seriously wrong.
    Secondly, she's got a mix-gem situation going, in my opinion Mastery outweighs Stamina when it comes to gemming; however it depends on your play style. Try having her switch to full-out Mastery or Stamina (Mastery : Puissant, Fractured,Fine || Stamina : Solid in everything unless 270+stamina bonus).
    Her reforging could handle some tweaking as well.

    Looking over her gear, on top of the DPS T14, she's also using the 522 VP DPS neck, not sure if a mistake but something she should look in to.

    Going to take a look at logs... Looking at over-all for your kills on 11-04 :

    1. Rune Tap usage seems low, but I don't raid in a 10 man environment so it may be on par. Same goes for AMS, IBF, and VB.

    To me it doesn't appear as she is getting hit as hard as you say, but since I haven't raided in a 10m environment I may be wrong.

  3. #3
    That was something I noticed. She honored one socket bonus that gave strength (chest) but ignored another one that gave the same amount of strength per socket (legs). Should she ignore those slots and pick up full mastery or stamina gems?

  4. #4
    she's also using the 522 VP DPS neck, not sure if a mistake but something she should look i
    iirc the only other mastery neck is from trash, gl with getting taht one, so I don't see a problem with using the haste/mastery dps one over the parry hit one

    dps 2 piece is strange since the tank t14 one is quite good, was she dps before switching to tanking?

    I'm no expert on logs but looking at dmg taken doesn't seem like she is taking that much more while doing a lot more self healing, any more specific problems with dying?

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire
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    Hit to cap>Expertise to soft cap>Mastery>Mastery>Mastery>Mastery>Mastery>Parry Drill that into her head until she cries.

    As a blood dk mastery trumps all after hit and expertise cap. Also, she should be using rune of sword-shattering (at least until heroic modes) for the 4% parry increase as it yields higher mitigation overall. After looking the logs you posted, Jaz seems to be executing her rotation correctly, however, I am concerned that I do not seem higher death pact, rune tap, and health stone usage. Furthermore, looking at the logs on a fight to fight basis; both dancing rune weapon and vampiric blood usage are quite low.

    As a blood dk you have so many cool downs to micro-manage and failure to do so negatively impacts your raid and stresses your healers for even more mana. So basically, your dk needs to learn the most effect way to weave her cds into her rotation so she can be what most blood dks are: a self-sustaining ass-kicker who the healers regularly do NOT have to worry about. Unfortunately, that is something that comes from experience in raiding environment so she will be learning as the raid progresses. But all-in-all I believe she can be an effective tank with some practice and a few tweaks.

  6. #6
    High Overlord Falling's Avatar
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    Least damage reduction of all tanks from passives (blood presence), no way of constantly reduce damage taken via for example block. If memory serves me right warriors got 20% damage reduction and DK's got 10% reduction from their "stance". All they have are their shields, which is why mastery is SO important
    Last edited by Falling; 2013-04-13 at 03:17 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    dps 2 piece is strange since the tank t14 one is quite good, was she dps before switching to tanking?
    Yes. And perhaps I had poor word choice when I said she was getting wrecked. I just had our other tank telling me how spiky the dmg is on her and how much more she takes than him. So I guess I'm posting on his behalf, on her behalf. But a lot of this information you guys are giving me is helpful.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerudo View Post
    Yes. And perhaps I had poor word choice when I said she was getting wrecked. I just had our other tank telling me how spiky the dmg is on her and how much more she takes than him. So I guess I'm posting on his behalf, on her behalf. But a lot of this information you guys are giving me is helpful.
    Spike damage will always be there at times, it's just the nature of the spec but the spikes can become quite predictable and blood dks pretty much have a series of cds for each case.

  9. #9
    going mastery isnt wrong, but saying you must go mastery is totally wrong. im tanking since ulduar as stam tank and never had any issue, neither 10m oder 25m.

    some reasons he could take more dmg than he should are:
    forgetting boneshield. uptime at jikun was fine for the first half, second half of the fight was bad.
    no ibf used
    no drw used

    have to work now so i dont have much time for analysis, but his cd management is bad plus his gear is not optimal, like using dps gear. purgatory is btw the best talent for tanks in every fight. i also prefer vampiric blood without glyph in 10m

  10. #10
    Overall damage taken for a blood dk will always be higher than any other tank since our model is based on healing ourselves after damage is taken rather than shielding it up front. We have also been the spikiest tank due again to the same model. We are spiky, but how we deal with the spikes is what matters, so as long as your blood dk isn't dying from the spikes, then it's not a big deal. If your wiping on raids because your blood dk keeps dying, then it's an issue. Honestly, on a few fights I looked at, your blood dk's damage taken combined with healing done means she is taking less overral damage than your warrior.

    I'm always leery of players that try and point out faults in other players when they don't know that players class. In my experience, they are trying to blame someone to cover for their own bad play. However, that's just in my experience.

    Dancing rune weapon usage seems to be low. This is normal for new blood dk's, because it costs so much rune power and we get into dumping all our rune power into rune strike mode, it's usually not a button that's lit up. You have to consciously want to use it and store the rp for it's use. So have her concentrate on using DRW more for both both the survivability and dps benefits.

    Needs to use JC mastery gems instead of stam ones unless she is specifically gearing for a magic damage fight.

    Also, getting hit to cap is nice, expertise to soft cap isn't a big deal since expertise only affects heart strike, outbreak, icy touch and plague strike.

    Glyph of vamp blood is allright, but I've been preferring it unglyphed for fights that have predictable spikes since unglyphed it gives us a nice proactive cooldown rather than reactive. Kinda depends on your healers though since glyphed vamp blood can just lead to a bunch of overheals.

    I also prefer unglyped AMS to reduce magic damage taken from mechanics that last around 7 seconds or more. Think i had the glyphed ams briefly because it sounded awesome, but then in practice realized it was shit. Maybe there is a fight that it is good for and that's why your bdk has it specced. Talents and glyphs can be changed on a fight per fight basis afterall.
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  11. #11
    why is she reforging into dodge and not out of it in most cases. The DR on dodge rating compared to parry rating is pretty massive. It literally should be all parry and the JC gems should be mastery over stamina. Also if I'm not mistaken for 10 man, she wants to go hit > expertise > mastery > haste > parry as the control build is better in ten man than an avoidance build. I may also be very outdated but I thought Runic Corruption was the tanks rune management system due to the mechanics of improved blood presence? Overall from what I gather just seems like a shitty usage of death strike(properly) and cooldowns. Take what I just said with a grain of salt as my information could be very dated.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerudo View Post
    I just had our other tank telling me how spiky the dmg is on her and how much more she takes than him.
    can't say anything about the being spikey part, but you can tell your warrior that he's wrong about the taking more dmg part. To make such a statement you have to go deeper into WoL than looking at the damage taken part. The problem that Blood DKs and Brewmaster Monks have with WoL is that Blood Shield and Stagger are listed in the combat log as absorbs, which WoL doesn't take into account on the Damage Taken statistic. For an accurate value you have to go into the players information in subtract absorbed damage from damage taken.

    The best fight imho to compare 2 tanks in ToT is Maegera, as each head does about the same amount of melee dmg. as you switch tanks for the blue head that you leave alive after every head the amount of raw melee dmg each of the tanks take should be about equal.

    Làmy took 9733228 melee dmg over the fight of which 4153880 dmg were absorbed resulting in 5579348 melee dmg taken.
    Jazryel took 12541011 melee dmg over the fight of which 7644917 dmg were absorbed resulting in 4896094 melee dmg taken.

    Of course healer absorbs count towards that as well, but looking at healing taken it shows that healers favored Làmy far more than Jazryel with their absorbs pushing the numbers even further towards Jazryel taking less dmg.

  13. #13
    pretty much everything everyone else has said, she also needs to use Soul Reaper for more Damage tho, for every attempt in the first night she used 5 times LESS then i did on Jin'Rohk and that was 1:13 fights

    she should be getting Mastery, stamina is completely useless for gems in a 10 man setting. and that includes the hand enchant, should be mastery not stam
    her gems should be mastery, parry/mastery and stam/mastery, reforge to hit/exp to 7.5 (exp is only for threat and dmg) and then more mastery, dont EVER reforge to dodge and parry unless absolutely unnecessary

    she should be using CD's ALOT more, especially for jin'rohk AMS more, it absorbs the static burst making tanks not have to swap and lessening damage, stuff like that is what makes DK's so powerful. a DK is a CD based class more then any other tank.

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerudo View Post
    I'm not too familiar with Blood DK, which is why I've come to you guys for help. She seems to take much much more damage than our warrior tank and deals a significant amount less damage.
    A Blood DK will take more damage than a warrior, and it`s more spiky as well. That`s how the class works. Two important questions (in this order):
    1) Is she actually dying? (if so, details, where is it on the log, etc)
    2) Assuming she stays alive, are healers struggling to keep her up? (if so, again, details will be needed)
    If the answer is "no" to both then she`s doing "ok" at a base level. Other posters have given good tips about cooldown usage, etc. On the whole stats debate, there will be various opinions, but the idea is to pick something that fits both someone`s playstyle and their progression level. For 10N, my vote goes for a mastery-heavy "offensive" build: hit+exp to 7.5% > mastery > haste > parry > dodge , with Fallen Crusader.

    Also, on the tank DPS part, it`s all highly dependant on vengeance, so you can`t just go and say "other tank does way more DPS".

  15. #15
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    She seems to take much much more damage than our warrior tank and deals a significant amount less damage.
    I checked the full reports, and:
    Overall damage taken she took 1% more damage than your warrior. That's not much. Also notice that she did 9% more healing than your warrior.
    She did 0.30% less damage overall than your warrior. It's less damage, but farm from significant.

    There are some weird choices at her gemming (Like you mentioned the socket bonus on legs etc) otherwise it looks to me.
    Also it's fine not to go for hit cap, it doesn't grant DK's anything that will make them get hit less. DS also heals&shields even if it misses.
    Dk's are spikier because they rely on active migitation (Blood shield). Bloodshield goes down, and runes are on CD at some point, that's when they get spiky.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    why is she reforging into dodge and not out of it in most cases. The DR on dodge rating compared to parry rating is pretty massive. It literally should be all parry and the JC gems should be mastery over stamina. Also if I'm not mistaken for 10 man, she wants to go hit > expertise > mastery > haste > parry as the control build is better in ten man than an avoidance build. I may also be very outdated but I thought Runic Corruption was the tanks rune management system due to the mechanics of improved blood presence? Overall from what I gather just seems like a shitty usage of death strike(properly) and cooldowns. Take what I just said with a grain of salt as my information could be very dated.

    Parry should be around a 2:1 ratio currently, there's a macro that you can use in-game on the EJ blood thread which tells you how much parry you need to balance with your current dodge rating (with and without SS).

    As for 10m raiding I have found it almost completely un-necessary to get the hit/expertise cap. Expertise is far lass important as your RS cannot be dodged or parried and you still get mitigation from DS even if it misses/dodges/parries. The only reason you would go for accuracy is if you're desperate for that extra tank dps (never had that problem in my current guild).

    Looking at the 'spike' damage that's just how the spec plays. Shield tanks mitigate the damage before it comes in, blood DK's heal it after it comes in.
    I think the largest part of being a good blood DK is managing your DS's and knowing when to hit it and when to save it, an addon like Blood Shield Tracker can help with stuff like that (shows an estimated heal and your current blood shield etc).

    If she's having issues managing BT then RC is a perfectly viable choice and provides a much more even rate of runic return which can help out if you feel like you're taking too much 'spike' damage but that's entirely down to playstyle imo.

    Gear-wise, losing the stam gems for mastery would be advantageous, the dodge/stam going to mastery/stam is a better choice imo (dodge/parry balance is nice but there's no need to gem for it). Rising winds is a bit of a crappy trinket but if it's the best choice available then meh. There's another thread on this forum somewhere with a good evaluation/discussion on the current tier's trinkets.

    Overall, good DS management is the single most important factor in how much damage you're taking. You can help out with gear/gems/addons but managing instead of spamming will do the most good.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Damyou View Post
    As for 10m raiding I have found it almost completely un-necessary to get the hit/expertise cap. Expertise is far lass important as your RS cannot be dodged or parried and you still get mitigation from DS even if it misses/dodges/parries. The only reason you would go for accuracy is if you're desperate for that extra tank dps (never had that problem in my current guild).
    I would have to disagree with that. Firstly, tank DPS can make a huge difference in 10 mans, but the main reason for capping hit/exp is that you get a lot more stacks of Scent of Blood which overall means you'll be healing for a lot more and that equals more blood shield.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkner View Post
    I would have to disagree with that. Firstly, tank DPS can make a huge difference in 10 mans, but the main reason for capping hit/exp is that you get a lot more stacks of Scent of Blood which overall means you'll be healing for a lot more and that equals more blood shield.
    Increase healing done doesn't translate into higher blood shields.

    Also, the argument can be made for or against hit cap. Just depends on the group. I like getting close to hit cap, exp cap only matters when i'm slightly annoyed over an outbreak missing.
    The more of my behavior you accept, the less you will have to forgive.

  19. #19
    As I said, what I posted was a personal opinion and (ok I didn't directly say it but I thought it was implied well enough) in my raid group I have never had to push my personal dps to the point where i've needed to get those extra few hits per fight. I run with 5% odd hit/exp from gear after i've reforged it away and find that my dps is absolutely fine. It's not like I rank for dps regularly but equally I push more than what some websites/guides use as 'average' tank dps for encounters.

  20. #20
    Overall from all my looking into the logs and her gear I agree pretty much with what everyone has said.

    Honestly, I would see this as a personal problem between them compared to a tanking problem. Everyone that's broken it down has shown a either slight slight difference in dmg done, dmg taken, and even had less healing done to her and more healing done by herself in some cases. If the other tank is blowing smoke saying he's doign so much better maybe he's trying to get her out in place of another. That's just the way I would see it based on my experiences with people in WoW though ~

    All in all though, def could work on getting some more tank items compared to dps (neck is fine though) and then also using some CD's better.

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