1. #1

    Prejudice blizzard?

    I see:
    Death Knight (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    Unholy
    Sudden Doom now requires the Death Knight to be in Unholy Presence to activate the effect that causes Death Coil to cost no Runic Power.

    the first thing i say is, well i kinda saw that one coming because you needed to be penalized for staying in a tanking stance. But heres the thing... what happened to frost? shouldn't they be penalized for staying in blood presence? (yes frost gets a more higher cost in frost strike, but unholy loses a good amount of haste) maybe like no killing machine procs?

  2. #2
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    Frost is complete crap when sitting in Blood Pres. They were already penalized enough, Unholy wasn't. Not sure what the problem is here.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    Frost is complete crap when sitting in Blood Pres. They were already penalized enough, Unholy wasn't. Not sure what the problem is here.
    Actually, they do fine in BP, i went frost and the only prob was lack of rune regen but i was still able to pull off a decent amount of strikes, but you should be penalized a lot. Personally i think unholy was penalized just as good as frost before the 5.3 nerf, lack of death coils = no dmg output and lack of Necrotics, a free death coil means ALOT to unholy.

  4. #4
    Yes, clearly its prejudice. Clearly Blizzard just hates Unholy DKs, but love Frost DKs, and therefore came up with a way to punish UH spec players. /eyeroll

    Do some of you even think before you post? Or do you glimpse unfinished patch notes and just run with the first kneejerk reaction that comes to mind? Here's a fact: Blizz has worked harder, by far, to balance UH and make it competitive than they have Frost (because Frost is usually in a decent/good place). So to insinuate that their addressing a rather major problem with one spec without randomly nerfing the other is 'prejudice' is kinda ookin' stupid.

    Frost is all but crippled in BP, there is a big difference between 'pull off a decent amount of strikes' and actually being able to use the spec to its fullest. Either you don't play Frost, or are just uninformed in general.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Frost is all but crippled in BP, there is a big difference between 'pull off a decent amount of strikes' and actually being able to use the spec to its fullest. Either you don't play Frost, or are just uninformed in general.
    Exactly. Frost suffers a big loss of damage in BP, compared to Unholy. Now Unholy feels it a bit more as well.

  6. #6
    Because unholy dks had massive survivability in the first place /sarcasm

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterdestod View Post
    Because unholy dks had massive survivability in the first place /sarcasm
    Well it still has more survivability than Frost, in Blood Presence or out, and this change is less of an impact than the +75% Frost Strike cost.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterdestod View Post
    Because unholy dks had massive survivability in the first place /sarcasm
    Frost didn't have more survivability than unholy did...and unholy fared a lot better than frost by going into BP.

  9. #9
    When I swapped to Unholy I was surprised at how well they could sit in Blood compared to frost.

    With full resil and Blood pres you get a massive damage reduction, in a random Twin peaks BG I ran the flag and when backed up with a healer the enemy had to send a massive chunk of their team to even attempt to kill me.

    I expected this or another nerf to rebalance things for UH.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    Personally i think unholy was penalized just as good as frost before the 5.3 nerf

    Not even remotely true. Unholy damage comes from diseases, pets, and DC, none of which are affected by blood presence. Frost loses almost all of its offensive pressure in BP. No frost strikes, no rune regen, no obliterate

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Unholy DKs were sitting too much in blood presence with barely switching to unholy presence while still doing a lot of pressure. Just like warriors were start MoP. Blizzard did something about it, but IMO they should make Glyph of Swapping Presences baseline so we don't have to waste a glyph for it with this change.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    I see:
    Death Knight (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    Unholy
    Sudden Doom now requires the Death Knight to be in Unholy Presence to activate the effect that causes Death Coil to cost no Runic Power.

    the first thing i say is, well i kinda saw that one coming because you needed to be penalized for staying in a tanking stance. But heres the thing... what happened to frost? shouldn't they be penalized for staying in blood presence? (yes frost gets a more higher cost in frost strike, but unholy loses a good amount of haste) maybe like no killing machine procs?
    We lose our rp reduction to frost strike when we switch to blood presence (which pretty much destroys dw frost and drastically reduces the performance of 2 hand) so we were in fact already penalized. Unholy wasn't (they still had the ability to fire off their rotation with very little interruption and most importantly keep a buttload of pressure with their ghoul), now it is, end of story and welcome to the club.

    P.S. One could make the claim that frost being penalized from jump and unholy having over 6 months of being able to pvp in blood presence with little to no penalty was prejudice against frost dks NOT unholy dks.


    Edit: Just felt it was worth stating that while a frost dk in blood presence will live longer, he will still get whittled down and killed before he can do any serious damage whereas an unholy dk in blood presence is able to kite, survive etc and pretty much be unkillable while his ghoul keeps pressure and he stands back and fires off death coil after death coil after death coil. But clearly that's balanced pvp right? Clearly frost needs to have their attacks completely disabled all together when they pvp as to prevent this "prejudice" against unholy right? /End Sarcasm
    Last edited by Samsarathedk; 2013-04-12 at 02:41 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    We lose our rp reduction to frost strike when we switch to blood presence (which pretty much destroys dw frost and drastically reduces the performance of 2 hand) so we were in fact already penalized. Unholy wasn't (they still had the ability to fire off their rotation with very little interruption and most importantly keep a buttload of pressure with their ghoul), now it is, end of story and welcome to the club.

    P.S. One could make the claim that frost being penalized from jump and unholy having over 6 months of being able to pvp in blood presence with little to no penalty was prejudice against frost dks NOT unholy dks.


    Edit: Just felt it was worth stating that while a frost dk in blood presence will live longer, he will still get whittled down and killed before he can do any serious damage whereas an unholy dk in blood presence is able to kite, survive etc and pretty much be unkillable while his ghoul keeps pressure and he stands back and fires off death coil after death coil after death coil. But clearly that's balanced pvp right? Clearly frost needs to have their attacks completely disabled all together when they pvp as to prevent this "prejudice" against unholy right? /End Sarcasm
    Wait... the patch that made unholy truly playable again has been out since... March? It is now April... Hmmm... I don't see a 6 month period in there, just 4 weeks. What was the most represented dk spec in pvp ALL of last season? OH YEAH! FROST WAS! Wow, I'll be damned. What a twist this is! Regardless of the ability to sit in Blood presence, Unholy was more aggravating than OP last season. You had to spend twice as many runes to even begin pressuring the enemy, you had no burst and had to sacrifice transforming your ghoul in order to use gargoyle. What kind of handicaps did frost have exactly? None that I can think of.

    With the current state of DK survivability in general, they probably could have gone a different route with this and made frost slightly better in BP than it currently is instead of making both specs a complete joke in BP. It was ghostcrawler after all who when asked about survivability for dks said "you have blood presence".

  14. #14
    So in 5.3 Unholy will have to choose:

    Play in Bp - > Survival
    or
    Play in Up -> Sudden Doom Procs

    Well guess what, i think in the end of the day Unholy Dk's will still prefer the survival aspect of Bp, rather then those Sudden Doom Procs.
    The gains you get in your survival surpass the gains of dps of Sudden Doom.
    So and since Blizzard don't want us to play in Bp, and since they won't buff our survival because they argue that "we have blood presence" (it's a bit of counter intuitive, they say we have blood presence and we don't need defenses, but they don't want us to play in Blood presence) my expectation is that they will penalize even more Blood Presence use, to completely remove it from unholy game play, without adding anything to compensate it.

    Blizzard stubborn always amaze me.

    On Topic: Frost is way more penalized if you play in blood Presence, especially if you play Dw.
    Last edited by Spiritvs; 2013-04-13 at 01:11 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uglytoes View Post
    Wait... the patch that made unholy truly playable again has been out since... March? It is now April... Hmmm... I don't see a 6 month period in there, just 4 weeks. What was the most represented dk spec in pvp ALL of last season? OH YEAH! FROST WAS! Wow, I'll be damned. What a twist this is! Regardless of the ability to sit in Blood presence, Unholy was more aggravating than OP last season. You had to spend twice as many runes to even begin pressuring the enemy, you had no burst and had to sacrifice transforming your ghoul in order to use gargoyle. What kind of handicaps did frost have exactly? None that I can think of.

    With the current state of DK survivability in general, they probably could have gone a different route with this and made frost slightly better in BP than it currently is instead of making both specs a complete joke in BP. It was ghostcrawler after all who when asked about survivability for dks said "you have blood presence".
    Hmm skilled players were able to crank out nearly the SAME damage as frost last tiers? Perhaps you should actually look at actual logs instead of sims which do not take fight mechanics into account? As for the most represented spec being frost? That doesn't mean that it was the spec that performed the best now does it? It merely means that a lot of people simply did not know how to play unholy. As for handicaps that frost have in pvp? Two words: Glass Cannon. The moment you can kite us or cc us we are dead as no one in their right mind will let us run around spreading diseases and spamming howling blast long enough for us to be very effective. Whereas, unholy has the ability to keep pressure with their ghoul and gargoyle while range attacking with death coil. So you see you're attempt at trumping my argument was really nothing more than a straw man/ red herring fallacy in disguise.

    As to your last point, yes they could have but they didn't so why bother complaining about it now? We all know that Blizz as a whole are quicker to nerf a spec than buff it when they find it outperforming the other specs in a given way whether it be in pvp or pve.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    Hmm skilled players were able to crank out nearly the SAME damage as frost last tiers? Perhaps you should actually look at actual logs instead of sims which do not take fight mechanics into account? As for the most represented spec being frost? That doesn't mean that it was the spec that performed the best now does it? It merely means that a lot of people simply did not know how to play unholy. As for handicaps that frost have in pvp? Two words: Glass Cannon. The moment you can kite us or cc us we are dead as no one in their right mind will let us run around spreading diseases and spamming howling blast long enough for us to be very effective. Whereas, unholy has the ability to keep pressure with their ghoul and gargoyle while range attacking with death coil. So you see you're attempt at trumping my argument was really nothing more than a straw man/ red herring fallacy in disguise.

    As to your last point, yes they could have but they didn't so why bother complaining about it now? We all know that Blizz as a whole are quicker to nerf a spec than buff it when they find it outperforming the other specs in a given way whether it be in pvp or pve.

    I'm starting to question your literacy level. At what point in my post did I even bring pve or encounter mechanics into my argument? Hmm... yep, can't find the part where I mentioned pve, probably because I didn't. Then you go and state that I should look at logs blah blah blah when my argument was geared toward PVP and had nothing to do with PVE. Its called reading comprehension, try it some time. The fact that the majority of players played frost is an indication that it was the best performing spec. If a spec gets the desired results, wouldn't it make sense that more people would play that spec? Who is really going to handicap their performance when one spec is easier to play and gets the results? You talk about the ghoul as if it is some heavy hitting pet. Turns out the ghoul is not much of anything but an annoyance when its not transformed. I don't really see the "keeping pressure while being kited" argument here. I love how you assume that people just coincidentally didn't know how to play unholy in 5.1 and then magically once 5.2 came out all sorts of people suddenly learned how to play unholy over night. The fact is, people knew how to play it but frost got the results more often and required less work.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritvs View Post
    Well guess what, i think in the end of the day Unholy Dk's will still prefer the survival aspect of Bp, rather then those Sudden Doom Procs.
    The gains you get in your survival surpass the gains of dps of Sudden Doom.
    That's fine. It's a tradeoff, while before it was nearly free. That's the design goal.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uglytoes View Post
    I'm starting to question your literacy level. At what point in my post did I even bring pve or encounter mechanics into my argument? Hmm... yep, can't find the part where I mentioned pve, probably because I didn't. Then you go and state that I should look at logs blah blah blah when my argument was geared toward PVP and had nothing to do with PVE. Its called reading comprehension, try it some time. The fact that the majority of players played frost is an indication that it was the best performing spec. If a spec gets the desired results, wouldn't it make sense that more people would play that spec? Who is really going to handicap their performance when one spec is easier to play and gets the results? You talk about the ghoul as if it is some heavy hitting pet. Turns out the ghoul is not much of anything but an annoyance when its not transformed. I don't really see the "keeping pressure while being kited" argument here. I love how you assume that people just coincidentally didn't know how to play unholy in 5.1 and then magically once 5.2 came out all sorts of people suddenly learned how to play unholy over night. The fact is, people knew how to play it but frost got the results more often and required less work.
    Well let's see bro in my original post I discussed both pve and pvp so by quoting my post you opened the door for discussion so thanks for trying to attack me personally when you had nothing left to do. As to your second point, the 'annoyance' of the ghoul which you like to speak of is a lot more than that, you clearly underestimate the power it can bring against healers and ranged especially when you effectively use gnaw to interrupt. As to your third point, I retort your question with a question: Why would people handicap themselves by playing an inferior spec in pvp simply because it requires more work and planning to yield higher results. And lastly, being able to play a spec and being able to play a spec effectively are two very very very different things all together whereas you try to lump them together which simply does not work. Simply because a spec requires less work does not make it the more effective spec all that shows is that people are lazy and prefer the game to be as easy as possible. Cheers and have a nice day.

  19. #19
    Increased cost of frost strike pretty much cripples frosts damage potential. Just go hit a dummy with BPres up, you'll notice it.

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