Enhance Orc vs. Troll

[Refridge]

I'm well aware that throughout the years Orc has been the mainstay, but from a pure ToT numbers perspective, which is currently better? The amount of beasts in ToT, combined with my high ilvl making haste become my top stat (by far), make the Troll racials, 5 percent beast dmg, and 20 percent haste, extremely attractive.

If anyone has already crunched these numbers feel free to let me know, I have a raid this weekend and my schedule doesnt look like ill have the time to babysit my sims like I like to do. Thanks anyone.

And any new enhance shamans feel free to ask me for help... about anything other than which race is currently better :P

[Coraulten]

I'm well aware that throughout the years Orc has been the mainstay, but from a pure ToT numbers perspective, which is currently better? The amount of beasts in ToT, combined with my high ilvl making haste become my top stat (by far), make the Troll racials, 5 percent beast dmg, and 20 percent haste, extremely attractive.

If anyone has already crunched these numbers feel free to let me know, I have a raid this weekend and my schedule doesnt look like ill have the time to babysit my sims like I like to do. Thanks anyone.

And any new enhance shamans feel free to ask me for help... about anything other than which race is currently better :P

Also take into the account the added pet damage from an orc, and the stun reduction. There are alot of stuns this time around and if you take 15% less of a stun thats more uptime you have which would be somewhat impossible to factor in.

[TechLife]

I'm well aware that throughout the years Orc has been the mainstay, but from a pure ToT numbers perspective, which is currently better? The amount of beasts in ToT, combined with my high ilvl making haste become my top stat (by far), make the Troll racials, 5 percent beast dmg, and 20 percent haste, extremely attractive.

If anyone has already crunched these numbers feel free to let me know, I have a raid this weekend and my schedule doesnt look like ill have the time to babysit my sims like I like to do. Thanks anyone.

And any new enhance shamans feel free to ask me for help... about anything other than which race is currently better :P

I have been debating this as well, The problem is with so much haste it starts to devalue itself. EX: and these numbers are very rough.. When I use EM + UF + blood lust + flurry I have around 400% haste and my MH is swinging around .73 at this high of haste its extremely devalued because 900% haste would put my MH at .31 so to go from 2.6 down to .71 I only need 400% haste but I need another 500% haste to reach half of the .71. there is a ceiling on haste where mastery becomes better again I am just not sure what it is and the theorycrafting I cant find any on it. I Think once you are sitting in 1300-1400 haste the extra 20% from the troll racial is devalued alot. Especially during bloodlust + EM combo's.

If you want to test out what I did on the island get the 10 stack of haste to 100% from the electrocutioners once you have a 10 stack it lasts 2 minutes haste bonus pop EM BLoodlust and wait till flury is up and hit UW and see what your haste % is to swing speed.


I hope that makes sense. Also you lose the expertise bonus from axe and fists which is stats itemized elsewhere haste or mastery.

[Refridge]

I have been debating this as well, The problem is with so much haste it starts to devalue itself. EX: and these numbers are very rough.. When I use EM + UF + blood lust + flurry I have around 400% haste and my MH is swinging around .73 at this high of haste its extremely devalued because 900% haste would put my MH at .31 so to go from 2.6 down to .71 I only need 400% haste but I need another 500% haste to reach half of the .71. there is a ceiling on haste where mastery becomes better again I am just not sure what it is and the theorycrafting I cant find any on it. I Think once you are sitting in 1300-1400 haste the extra 20% from the troll racial is devalued alot. Especially during bloodlust + EM combo's.

If you want to test out what I did on the island get the 10 stack of haste to 100% from the electrocutioners once you have a 10 stack it lasts 2 minutes haste bonus pop EM BLoodlust and wait till flury is up and hit UW and see what your haste % is to swing speed.


I hope that makes sense. Also you lose the expertise bonus from axe and fists which is stats itemized elsewhere haste or mastery.

As I understand it there are a few things we need to understand about haste, how it affects weapon speed, and how that weapon speed affects our dps. For instance, if windfury weapon didnt scale with weapon speed that extra 500 percent haste would still be worth it, but alas, it does not. So we're left with a large portion of our dmg being tied to our weapon speed, even without windfury. Lightning shields, white dmg, legendary meta, maelstrom procs, whole buncha shit. Even if the haste cap at which mastery is valued over haste is reachable with a 522 ilvl (assuming you get more haste than this, to push you over this threshhold, from heroic gear) the answer seems to be that orc would be better for fights where you lust at the start, and troll where you lust for a burn phase or through an execute phase. My thoughts make sense, even if this post does not, apologies.

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 08:18 PM ----------

The pet dmg is a joke of a buff lol, 2 percent on the fire ele totem, which pulls approximate 1.3 mil per minute of CD amounts to a total gain of approx 100k dmg per 5 minute ele totem. 20k per minute, its a gain of about 340 dps. Thats poo poo when i pull around 150k patchwerk and should be pulling 217ish full heroic. The only stun of note for enhance to worry about would be lei shen stun, which we should all be sham rage glyphing, and losing milliseconds of uptime. No big ish, naaa mean?

[Drebbin]

When fire elemental is glyphed Berkerking becomes an incredibly useful cd as it has an identical cooldown to both fire elemental and ascendance. I have run both AS and EM and both are pretty much viable, I simply prefer EM because I don't like dealing with the on use effect of AS.

As for the beast racial, its very useful on all the beast bosses except horridon, since you will be attacking the adds for the majority of that fight. It is definitely a noticeable difference since on most fights the other dps in my guild do pretty similar damage but on the beast fights I pull ahead. Using Megaera as an example, I did 53,849,419 damage over the whole fight on our last kill attempt, 5% of that is approximately 2,700,000 damage, which is a little more than how much I beat our second highest dps by.

[Wrap]

Just throwing this in there. Would the % pet damage would apply to wolves too?

[Aleksej89]

Take into consideration that Troll racials are very very op at the moment - almost every class in PvE has Trolls listed as the "best pick" race, both due to their CD and their bonus % against beasts.

So i would not be surprised if troll racials really got a nerf very soon, or at least other racials got boosted.

On a side note race model also plays a critical role in (at least my) gameplay, and since trolls are definitely one of the ugliest models out there (those feet omg) you are definitely better off picking Orcs.

[Deleted]

Take into consideration that Troll racials are very very op at the moment - almost every class in PvE has Trolls listed as the "best pick" race, both due to their CD and their bonus % against beasts.

So i would not be surprised if troll racials really got a nerf very soon, or at least other racials got boosted.

I would be extremely surprised if Troll Racials got a nerf at all. They've shown almost zero interest in attempting to balance PvE racials - Tauren have had SHOCKING racials since forever for example

[Aleksej89]

I would be extremely surprised if Troll Racials got a nerf at all. They've shown almost zero interest in attempting to balance PvE racials - Tauren have had SHOCKING racials since forever for example

I agree that racials are really outdated and unbalanced - but the MAIN reason for picking Troll is that they got SICK racials (unless you got a 2 finger foot fetish).
Orcs got a good mix of offense and defense racials and a useful expertise racial - and both male and female look good.

[Deleted]

its hard to say what the best race is. as mentioned, orcs got something good, and trolls got some great.
unless you are in a "world leading guild" like method etc , which race you should chose, should be based on which race you like the look on , mostly.
they might nerf trolls or buff other races - but as it look right now, i guess the trolls are a bit better in some situations and orcs in others where stuns are a part of it.
uptime on dps vs haste/dpsboost

[Drebbin]

On a side note race model also plays a critical role in (at least my) gameplay, and since trolls are definitely one of the ugliest models out there (those feet omg) you are definitely better off picking Orcs.

Not everyone agrees with that. Even considering the giant toes I happen to think trolls are the coolest looking enhance shaman race and I think orcs are one the worst, shaman gear looks weird on them with their giant shoulders and the swing animations for all 1 handed weapons are clunky not to mention their faces are ugly as hell.

But that's all opinion, if you like orcs that's great. We're talking about the mechanics of racials and xzeve is right, while troll racials are better than orc, it isn't really worth race changing for it unless you are really trying to squeeze out that extra damage or, you know, just want the look of a different race.

[Aviators]

Remember most BiS weapons are fist weapons that go in line with the Orc Racial as well. And the 4 set is affected by the Orc Racial as well.

And on the topic of visuals, Both Orc and Troll are due for model rehaul.

[iggie]

It'd be nice if they balanced pve racials. I hate myself for loving my dwarf female too much.

[Drebbin]

Remember most BiS weapons are fist weapons that go in line with the Orc Racial as well. And the 4 set is affected by the Orc Racial as well.

The expertise thing actually becomes somewhat of a hindrance when you consider the bis trinket for enhance this tier is the soul charm which cause most people to go far over the expertise cap even when they reforge out of as much as possible. Until I got some upgrades without any expertise on them i had 9.5 exp just as a troll.

[Wrap]

Honestly it won't make the biggest difference. Orc's is an ATK power CD with 5% pet damage. Trolls is a Haste CD with 5% beast damage. 5/12 bosses are beasts (from memory) so its up to you. With the 4 set, you will be getting more feral spirits, which means more use of the 5% pet damage.

Fighting a Beast? Troll
Fighting a non beast? Orc

[Relapses]

Good advice, Wrap! Just race change for every other boss fight in ToT. Blizzard will love the residual income.

[Wrap]

Yes because that's what i clearly meant. What a completely useless post by Ota. I'm saying on a beast boss trolls will most likely be ahead, and on a non-beast, Orc's might pull slightly higher. I think there is 5 beast bosses, so its up to the OP to decide which will be worth it. If you can't add anything to the conversation don't waste everyone's time.

[Puupi]

@Wrap and otaXephon
Keep it civil. If you don't agree with someone, that's fine. You don't need to start flaming anyone for that, though. *flexes infraction-finger*


On the topic - if I were an enhancement shaman, I would probably go for orc. Troll might be situationally better, but overall orc racials are winners. Not basing this on any facts, just my guts.

[Wrap]

Which is exactly why I had to state that his post was pointless. We're all shaman here, and we're all trying to help each other. I gave my opinion on which race would be best for each type of boss, and he insinuated that the OP should change race for every fight based on what I said. It doesn't help the OP in the slightest.

On Topic: Building on what I mentioned, I realized that it is only 2% pet damage instead of 5%. However I still think Orc's will generally be stronger for most fights/adds in TOT. With Bloodlust and Flurry going off, you would have to be careful when you pop Berserking (to minimize haste waste). Whereas Blood Fury can simply be stacked with Bloodlust etc. It's lazier, but I much prefer the AP/SP cooldown But it is definitely a preference thing.