RSK buff 20% now. Will that be enough?

[Deleted]

If we aren't thrown some kind of bone, there is no reason to bring WW to a raid.

Blizzard doesn't see this as a problem though, Rogues got really nicely buffed in the patch but nerfing Windwalkers this hard for the patch to 'prevent' us from the possibility of being a little too OP with the new gear was just jumping on the gun too fast considering it matters during progression and not really after on farm. As Requital just mentioned, Windwalkers are the spec that are the most appealing to bench sadly for progress. The RSK buff is nice, but not nearly enough.

[Partyhats]

Why don't you provide data you have gathered to show otherwise? As it is your comments are null and void as you provide absolutely no proof just meaningless text. Are you currently in Heroic progression? Do you have anything to show WW is better than bottom feeders?

I raid in a 9/13h 25m guild and have only been actually sat on is Durumu. Everything else I volunteered my spot to people that needed the gear more/were better suited to the fight (I don't want anything from Primordius, for example, and melee is kinda mediocre on that fight in general). I am competitive with the other melee in my guild (save for specific fights where our DKs disease everything in sight). Look up Valfar on WoL for a monk that does very good damage in general, not just for the class. Just because we're not topping meters on everything doesn't mean we're BAD. We just aren't the best.

Keep in mind I was talking purely from a DPS standpoint, I still agree we need utility. I wish Zen Med would actually just be turned into a useful raid CD. Our strongest asset is that we have probably the best personal CDs of any dps which is nice for fights like heroic Qon, and we're also incredibly mobile.

[Algroda]

Take a look at overall dps based off best spec for each role from each class. AKA Fury over arms because Fury is performing better, but both Feral and Balance since one is melee, one is ranged That provides a comparison of the top 100. WW is still very very low.

[Deleted]

The whole "no utility" thing is a little bit of a white lie don't you think? Zen Meditation, Dampen Harm, ToK, and Diffuse Magic all provide incredibly good cheesing ability. You also have the best snap AoE damage and mobility in the entire game. I agree monks lack something that's usable during a run of the mill encounter, but the aforementioned pretty much rule out any claim of a lack in utility of some sort.

[Lucetia]

But yet he DID confirm TODAY that it was an intentional change:

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...57810993635331

The problem with that is those buffs you see in the notes are already on Live and just are tooltip changes. I know a few are, so I would assume they all are especially since they aren't in the latest patch notes.

[facerollin]

The problem with that is those buffs you see in the notes are already on Live and just are tooltip changes. I know a few are, so I would assume they all are especially since they aren't in the latest patch notes.

What? No. Ghostcrawler tweeted confirming the incoming monk buff for 5.3...? They go into a discussion on why they aren't hotfix buffing the classes.

[Hinalover]

The problem with that is those buffs you see in the notes are already on Live and just are tooltip changes. I know a few are, so I would assume they all are especially since they aren't in the latest patch notes.

I'm not sure where your misunderstanding is. But he says "Buffs in 5.3 for...WW...are real, at least for now." He makes no mention what-so-ever about this being a "tooltip change." Where in Blizzard's Hotfix site does it say ANYTHING about RSK's change going live.

[Algroda]

The whole "no utility" thing is a little bit of a white lie don't you think? Zen Meditation, Dampen Harm, ToK, and Diffuse Magic all provide incredibly good cheesing ability. You also have the best snap AoE damage and mobility in the entire game. I agree monks lack something that's usable during a run of the mill encounter, but the aforementioned pretty much rule out any claim of a lack in utility of some sort.

In general, when people are talking about utility they are referring to raid wide utility. For example, before this patch rogues brought no raid utility, though they brought plenty of personal - cloak, evasion, feint, and so forth. Now rogues have Smokebomb, which that means they have that sought after raid utility.

[Tangra]

Being buffed from 10% to 20%.

Glad their "internal testing error" of 10% turned out to be bullcrap.

[Schaden]

Difference being Warlocks top the meters so I think a better comparison for WW would be Hunters who also are in very bad shape. I get what you are saying because for the first tier since I have been raiding I have less than 50% of the guild Heroic kills because I sit that much.

And hunters are ranged, which still puts them in a better position than Windwalkers.

And yeah, personal cooldowns means we require a little less babysitting than other melee, but a personal CD means nothing if your raid wipes because they brought you instead of, say, a warrior and their 34254 raid CDs or a Retadin or a Feral Druid or a Rogue and lost some vital tank/raid CDs.

[Exorte]

RSK will need to be 30-40% before I consider bringing a WW over a Warrior to my 10 mans. Def Banner, Crit Banner and Rally vs nothing.

40% might be a bit exaggerated but you are right. Even 10% is not going to get WW anywhere near the top.

Ench got 20% more Spell power and 20% more damage on Storm strike and lava leash.
Pally got 13% buff
WW got 9.1% buff

[Luneward]

Glad their "internal testing error" of 10% turned out to be bullcrap.

Well their 'internal error' was that they weren't accounting for the 10% of our damage that chi wave can potentially make up on bosses with normal hitboxes. Which also shows they weren't doing much in the way of practical testing. The 10% nerf wasn't so bad. It was them immediately nerfing us in a hotfix in such a hasty manner that indicated they hadn't thought of any other way to tweak our damage outside of a lazy across the board 10% nerf. I'm one of those that would prefer they start restoring our stance bonus a bit at first rather than work on the RSK debuff.

[NeverStop]

Let's see what each Melee class brings in terms of Raid CDs:

Ret - Hand of Protection / Purity, Lay on Hands, Devotion Aura, 20% magic damage reduction for 6 sec on 3 min CD, no positional requirement
Rogue (all specs) - Tricks of the Trade, Smoke Bomb, 20% all damage reduction for 7 sec (with glyph) on 3 min CD, must be in 8 yard radius
Feral druid - Heart of the Wild off-spec heals, 6 min CD
Warrior (fury and arms) - Rallying Cry, Demo Banner, Skull Banner
Death Knight (frost and unholy) - AMZ
Shaman (Enhancement) - Healing Tide totem
Windwalker - Tiger's Lust and Zen Meditation (crappier than glyphed Grounding Totem)

Based solely on Raid CDs, the only Melee DPS worth bringing to Heroic progression are Rogues (for Smoke Bomb) or Warriors (for Rallying and banners).

[Killuha]

Let's see what each Melee class brings in terms of Raid CDs:

Ret - Hand of Protection / Purity, Lay on Hands, Devotion Aura, 20% magic damage reduction for 6 sec on 3 min CD, no positional requirement
Rogue (all specs) - Tricks of the Trade, Smoke Bomb, 20% all damage reduction for 7 sec (with glyph) on 3 min CD, must be in 8 yard radius
Feral druid - Heart of the Wild off-spec heals, 6 min CD
Warrior (fury and arms) - Rallying Cry, Demo Banner, Skull Banner
Death Knight (frost and unholy) - AMZ
Shaman (Enhancement) - Healing Tide totem
Windwalker - Tiger's Lust and Zen Meditation (crappier than glyphed Grounding Totem)

Based solely on Raid CDs, the only Melee DPS worth bringing to Heroic progression are Rogues (for Smoke Bomb) or Warriors (for Rallying and banners).

Ret - Hand of Salvation / Sacrifice
Feral - Cyclone, Vortex,Tranquility, Stampeding Roar, Symbiosis
Warrior - Shattering throw
DK - Deathgrip, Massgripp
Shaman - Stormlash totem, Ancestral Guidance(conflicts with HTT), Glyphed Healing stream
Windwalker - 2 AoE stuns


That said, WW have great mobility and survivability

[Requital]

I raid in a 9/13h 25m guild and have only been actually sat on is Durumu. Everything else I volunteered my spot to people that needed the gear more/were better suited to the fight (I don't want anything from Primordius, for example, and melee is kinda mediocre on that fight in general). I am competitive with the other melee in my guild (save for specific fights where our DKs disease everything in sight). Look up Valfar on WoL for a monk that does very good damage in general, not just for the class. Just because we're not topping meters on everything doesn't mean we're BAD. We just aren't the best.

Keep in mind I was talking purely from a DPS standpoint, I still agree we need utility. I wish Zen Med would actually just be turned into a useful raid CD. Our strongest asset is that we have probably the best personal CDs of any dps which is nice for fights like heroic Qon, and we're also incredibly mobile.

Valvar are you kidding me? Ilevel 535 double Heroic TF Weapons, Heroic Juju and a TF Rune not to mention 5pc Heroic tier. That might have been the most illogical comment you could have made. You sitting there saying the #1 geared WW is putting up good numbers so the spec is fine.

If you are keeping up with equally geared melee then you have crappy melee in your guild the only melee you should be even with is Ret because they are pretty mediocre atm as well you could also beat Feral if they have shitty timing on applying dots.

Enhance is some of the best single target when played properly, DK's you can't touch them, Warriors hello execute range and wave to them as they fly past you. Mages? Warlocks? Boomkins? Shadowpriest? Seriously we are fighting with Ret and Feral for bottom of the melee.

We scale on Ji-Kun because of the buff same with Jinrokh those are our strongest two fights and we can do ok on Iron Qon, Magaera RoP is very valuable and everything else we are piss poor on.

9/13h meaning you are in 7th through 15th 25 man US same area I am in so I would believe you sat for progression sake but I bet you would rather be in for more kills then you are in for.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 08:32 AM ----------

The whole "no utility" thing is a little bit of a white lie don't you think? Zen Meditation, Dampen Harm, ToK, and Diffuse Magic all provide incredibly good cheesing ability. You also have the best snap AoE damage and mobility in the entire game. I agree monks lack something that's usable during a run of the mill encounter, but the aforementioned pretty much rule out any claim of a lack in utility of some sort.

None of those are raid utility they are personal utility I fail to see how they are valuable for the raid.

[Jawless Jones]

Dps-wise i think (*know) this is a good change

however we STILL need more utility as WW

granting WW Avert Harm would be a good start, maybe some sort of raid wide dps buff that causes everyone to use the monk animations =P

[Callimonk]

I admit that with a bit of gear, I haven't been seeing the bench as much.

However, let me chime in a bit to some of these "Low numbers" posts.

First, I'll toot my own horn. Last night, we had our second kill on H Megaera. For the longest time, I was my raid's least geared melee - I was 515 with mostly valor items, while others were 520+. That disparity is gone now somewhat after a few lucky bonus rolls and 4set, but even then - On Megeara, I clocked 172K DPS. This would have given me a top 40 rank for WW if our logs were not private. When I checked last night, Reqfu's last rank was 166K on that fight, and the ones that did not appear to AE worms full time were around 160-170K. Point being - I feel I know this class very well, and I acknowledge that I am very well geared compared to the "average" player (even with only 1 535 piece prior to this week - lucky on Jinrokh ), but not stupidly more geared than they would be (at least, I was not at the time of the Megaera log - keeping in mind that at the time, I believe I had the VP trinket, a 509 ring, and that I am using a 522 and a 510 weapon - so I was closer to 520 item level, which I will say is more "average" at the moment).

This put me as #6 on our personal meters, right between our rogues (item level 525 and 527, respectively). So, one would think - hey, WW must be pretty good! However, it's one fight. And, I have 4p and RoRO. And arguably, H Megaera is rather nice to melee, as compared to Council, where I was lucky to see top 10 late into the fight due to how horrible and hateful that fight is (I seriously just want a weapon and maybe Bad Juju and then never see it again).

I don't feel that our issue is "low numbers" so much as how dependent we are upon gear. I'll reiterate what I have said before. A class should not be balanced around their gear. Right now, that is what we are balanced around, and it makes me facepalm. Not every WW is going to be lucky and have RoRO or 4p. In addition, we should not be balanced around future gear - if developers are worried about us becoming too strong with more secondaries, then perhaps there is something else they should have done rather than hurt players without the same gear. Prior to being on the same level as the rest of my raid - I saw quite a bit of bench time. There was simply no reason to justify bringing me in. And I opted to be benched on some progression fights until I felt that I was competitive and could actually contribute something.

The 20% RSK buff is not enough. We need our mastery scaling adjusted if that is such a big concern, and our base 20% from stance back.

[Deleted]

im glad they are doing this, before the hotfix i was doing so much damage, it was crazy how high my dps was, i was expecting a nerf straight away, this should put us well above any other dps if Rune is used properly, should offset the fact we have no raid cd

[Deleted]

Let's see what each Melee class brings in terms of Raid CDs:

Ret - Hand of Protection / Purity, Lay on Hands, Devotion Aura, 20% magic damage reduction for 6 sec on 3 min CD, no positional requirement
Rogue (all specs) - Tricks of the Trade, Smoke Bomb, 20% all damage reduction for 7 sec (with glyph) on 3 min CD, must be in 8 yard radius
Feral druid - Heart of the Wild off-spec heals, 6 min CD
Warrior (fury and arms) - Rallying Cry, Demo Banner, Skull Banner
Death Knight (frost and unholy) - AMZ
Shaman (Enhancement) - Healing Tide totem
Windwalker - Tiger's Lust and Zen Meditation (crappier than glyphed Grounding Totem)

Based solely on Raid CDs, the only Melee DPS worth bringing to Heroic progression are Rogues (for Smoke Bomb) or Warriors (for Rallying and banners).

Don't forget Feral Druids and Death Knights can ress, which well in my guild at least they want to bring along them for as well as their other CDs.

[Justwait]

Perhaps someone wants to toss them the idea of a 'raid utility' along the lines of 'Harmless Touch'. Reducing the damage a target deals by 10% for 15s, something worth bringing if dps is equal to others! Also, there are no raid cooldowns like that one unless yo count Demo shout for warriors, but that's self only.