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  1. #41
    Part of the problem that pallies/monks are viewed so strong this tier is they can use offensive stats (haste) to help with active mitigation, without sacrificing too much survivability, all while ignoring gemming/trinketing stamina. (~Edit: Survivability as in spike damage, which previously you usally get more stam/block)

    Druids try to use this model too (crit) but they don't have the same consistent damage-mitigating tools (SoTR and Stagger mainly), instead relying more on RNG and pure stamina to survive. Since the other 2 tanks have much higher dps and survivability with the offensive stats, druids are viewed as weaker compared to them.

    DK's and Warriors don't gem/reforge into an offensive stat yet do about just the same as the other tanks, however they can't bring the high dps and same raid utility so they also aren't as 'good' as the other 2 tanks.

    Also, worth mentioning those pallies/monks have the better raid utility this tier, with pallies leading the charge to being able to 1 tank bosses thanks to HoP, which makes them even more valued if you don't have a holy/ret in your 10m.
    Last edited by Scubascythe; 2013-04-17 at 04:45 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    The chance that you don't have a T&C up for this exact circumstance (assuming hit/exp caps, and 20% melee haste with raid buff which is completely reasonable) is about 8%, or 0.6 (chance it doesn't happen on melee) ^ 5 (avg # of melee swings between puncture).

    Of those 8% chances, you won't dodge say 45% of the time, give or take depending on gear and procs. Down to 3.6%.

    Give say an average encounter length of 12 minutes (grabbed from Something Wicked's last kill) and a triple puncture every 10 seconds,
    you get 72 punctures (again give or take depending on dino movement). Of those, 3 will go through a Savage Defense and T&C. Plenty few for cooldown usage.
    The problem isn't that your math is bad. The problem is that you don't know which 3 will go through SD and T&C ahead of time, so you /can't/ specifically CD those 3. And when you're talking Heroic progression, "The tank will probably die 3 times this fight" is another way of saying "We aren't killing this boss today". Ultimately that's the problem. Guardians are actually a really good tank on the macroscopic level when you get to average everything over a long period of time, but we are completely at the mercy of RNG streaks in the short term and we have very limited ability to use skillful play to counter bad RNG. Made worse in this tier by abilities that invalidate the tools we do have. (Hard Stare, I'm looking at you. Hard.)

  3. #43
    The problem is that you don't know which 3 will go through SD and T&C ahead of time, so you /can't/ specifically CD those 3.
    Well you will definitely know which ones don't have a T&C on them, and cooldown all of those if you need to.

    This danger can also be completely negated by simply switching to favouring more of a Mastery/Stamina build.

    I'm beginning to think that heroic raiding in T15 requires more of an adjustment to our way of thinking than it did in T14 where we could continue to go full RPS without any issue.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Well you will definitely know which ones don't have a T&C on them, and cooldown all of those if you need to.

    This danger can also be completely negated by simply switching to favouring more of a Mastery/Stamina build.
    .
    Specifically with H Horridon, after getting insta-gibbed a couple of attempts I made the conscious decision to boost my EH more, which did solve the problem of going from 100% to dead. I generally tend to gear both ways, prioritizing crit and stamina (and I like hit cap and exp hard-cap, I'm spoiled) for heroic content... pretty much allows good RPS with a little extra room to take spike damage. However, it will still likely fall onto the individual Guardian to determine what is best for their group. My build was to allow for healer error and minimal reliance on external CDs, since we tend to bring in trial raiders on heroic content and progression... don't ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    I'm beginning to think that heroic raiding in T15 requires more of an adjustment to our way of thinking than it did in T14 where we could continue to go full RPS without any issue.
    T15 may require an adjustment to our way of thinking, or we might have to go back to how we discussed Guardian tanking survival back in WotLK. Back then, for those of us that remember, boss auto-attacks were much bigger ratio of a tank's HP, and there was a focus on getting our EH high enough to survive a certain amount of melee hits or a big special attack w/o external help. H Horridon after the War God dies is sort of how tanking felt back then, and while Blizz has moved away from that tank damage mentality as a whole (more towards smaller hits adding up over time, allowing more healer reaction time, etc), heroic content moves back towards that WotLK-style tanking damage. Ironically our only real tanking mitigation tools were our major damage reduction cooldowns back then, feels sort of similar on the heroic front today.

    I honestly haven't really changed my overall way of gearing my druid tank since WotLK, as I still aim to get my EH to a comfortable level before I start pushing to maximize my RPS to reduce the damage I'll take over time via SD and/or allow me to heal up via FR. There's certainly nothing wrong with going full RPS even on heroic T15 content, I personally like to be self-dependent and rely as little as possible on external help (which pushes me towards more EH so I don't always have to use a CD to survive some spike damage situations, i.e. Ji-Kun's first Talon Rake on heroic). I found going full RPS left me feeling slightly uncomfortable and reliant on healers if I ran into some bad RNG or my active mitigation abilities weren't enough to deal with certain situations. Again, this is just a personal playstyle, nothing more.

    *edit* - On slight off-but-related note, the legendary tanking meta is godly for helping Guardians deal with some of this spike damage and increasing our EH temporarily. Yes, it's on the RPPM system, but I'm having uptimes of the proc around 30%. If you start tracking when you get this buff, you can use the proc to potentially save a DR cooldown for another time (since the buff basically replaces the use of Barkskin).
    Last edited by exochaft; 2013-04-17 at 10:11 PM.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  5. #45
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    Keep in mind English is not my first language.

    This post is addressed to Arielle. Why do you defend Guardians being ok so much? Especially when we are not, it has clearly been pointed out on this thread why, so I wont mention it again. I see you on every guardian post I check and I know you do the guide as well, so being one of the most influential guardians in the community why do I think you are unaware of the problems guardians have? based on your posts. I MT for my guild, the other day our other tank did not make it, the pug we found was another guardian, Tortos was a nightmare, we wipe over and over and over, because I simply died, the lead just called it as it was just frustrating to keep me alive. I have tank him before and we eventually kill him but bad rng affects us just too much to be considered reliable. I feel the dodge mechanic should be attached to something else, say either we dodge an attack or mitigate a percentage of the damage. Anyways the point of this was to ask you, why are you so defensive, it does not help the Guardian community if blizz were to read your post they might even think we are OP.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearmaster View Post
    Keep in mind English is not my first language.

    This post is addressed to Arielle. Why do you defend Guardians being ok so much? Especially when we are not, it has clearly been pointed out on this thread why, so I wont mention it again. I see you on every guardian post I check and I know you do the guide as well, so being one of the most influential guardians in the community why do I think you are unaware of the problems guardians have? based on your posts. I MT for my guild, the other day our other tank did not make it, the pug we found was another guardian, Tortos was a nightmare, we wipe over and over and over, because I simply died, the lead just called it as it was just frustrating to keep me alive. I have tank him before and we eventually kill him but bad rng affects us just too much to be considered reliable. I feel the dodge mechanic should be attached to something else, say either we dodge an attack or mitigate a percentage of the damage. Anyways the point of this was to ask you, why are you so defensive, it does not help the Guardian community if blizz were to read your post they might even think we are OP.
    Normal Tortos? Though his snapjaw or whatever hurts, it was not an instant kill shot. Were you using a lot of frenzied regen? That really helped to keep me alive, I'd pop it right after snapjaw...

  7. #47
    This post is addressed to Arielle. Why do you defend Guardians being ok so much? Especially when we are not, it has clearly been pointed out on this thread why, so I wont mention it again. I see you on every guardian post I check and I know you do the guide as well, so being one of the most influential guardians in the community why do I think you are unaware of the problems guardians have?
    Mainly because the problems are exclusive to 25m Heroic raiding, and I don't raid 25ms. Once you get to that level of content there's a certain assumption that you will adjust whatever strategy you are using to play in accordance to the content you are doing. Further there has to be evidence that those who are doing 25m heroic raiding are actually making said adjustments.

    While I have seen none of the latter, I have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence that our raid toolkit is lacking once we get to a 25m heroic setting. The recent change to Tranquility and the nerf to Battle Healer will serve to "narrow the gap" as it were. Is it enough? I don't know, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. Time will tell if more changes are needed.

    I MT for my guild, the other day our other tank did not make it, the pug we found was another guardian, Tortos was a nightmare, we wipe over and over and over, because I simply died, the lead just called it as it was just frustrating to keep me alive. I have tank him before and we eventually kill him but bad rng affects us just too much to be considered reliable. I feel the dodge mechanic should be attached to something else, say either we dodge an attack or mitigate a percentage of the damage. Anyways the point of this was to ask you, why are you so defensive, it does not help the Guardian community if blizz were to read your post they might even think we are OP.
    Assuming proper use of Frenzied Regen (do you have your 2pc?) and T&C this should never really be an issue. Guardians are an entirely different kind of tank from the other 4, in that we excel and making regular Melee attacks relatively harmless. Having T&C up to prevent "combos" and using FR to recover from big tank hits (Snapping Bite) are part of the way we work.

    Do Guardians have a higher skill cap than other tanks? Maybe. Is that a bad thing? No. I will tell you that Blizzard is 100% aware of the concerns raised here, and they are committed to making sure that no tank has any unfair advantages over another.

    We're not broken by any stretch of the imagination though.

  8. #48
    As I've said before, the reason I've moved away from playing guardian and more towards feral is that we're outclassed on a lot of the fights this tier: not so much on survivability, but on mechanics that other classes are just better for.

    Horridon hc is the example everyone loves here: I struggle even to pick up all of the adds on every gate due to a lack of ranged pick up; by default the mobs run to the tankadin who gets agro from healing... Warriors have endless mobility, dk's have d&d, monks have keg smash(?) - I have faerie fire... oh and taunt!

    Again, the night before last I was tanking Primordius hc and was taking less damage than our warrior I was in with - on average about 4% less damage. Nevertheless I was benched to drag in a tankadin last night - the thinking being that the insane raid healing they put out would help with overall raid damage. My suggestion of people learning to play better (and thus not needing the extra healing) is of course the less popular measure.

    I suppose the problem is twofold: One is that our survivability while very strong is not guaranteed. Second, our toolkit is lacklustre relative to other tanks: Be that ranged pick up, raid cd's, or outright negating fight mechanics (paladin on horridon, dk on jinrok).

  9. #49
    I hope you are talking about Tortos hc cause nh you should never die except you are at 485 ilvl or somethin like that. Did you really die from snapping bite all the time or bite + something else. And if you know guardians are RNG on that fight and you struggled with it why do you invite another guardian pug.

    And Arielle is absolutely right, so is kaiadam.
    You cant compare hardcore raiding with most raiding guilds. I totally get why kaiadam changed to monk, but he raids with a undergeared raid maybe even have to drop a healer to meet beserk or make some parts of the fight easier. Was the tactic they used easier with a monk? probably. They would have made small changes if he tanked as a bear, and still managed to kill jikun hc, migh have taken a bit more tries but i am very confident they would have killed it anyway. Most guilds will have much better gear on every raider in 25s once they try jikun, which may result in maybe taking an aditional healer, maye three tanks i dont know. Most people have LMGs now, more Tf items especially in 25s. Top raiding 25s druids are behind the other tanks but its still possible, and top raiding guild want to kill the boss asap, switching tanks dps or heal from tier to tier to get the best Raidcomp is normal while progressraiding.

    In 10m its a totally different story, last tier druids were op on some hc fights, now some other classes are op other fights. most fights need two tanks, so you still ahve another one (maybe not if you have two druids). In 10m tank dps is a much higher amount of the total dmg done, and druids do alot of dps and they dont even need that high vengeance uptime. And thats why most 10s think druids are fine. If other tankclasses would be so OP that you wouldnt be able to kill the boss if you dont have both of these specs than they would do something like they always have.

    We finally got a Protpala, and he MTs most of the fights, and i love how druids work now, beeing very stong OT in 10m, think its sad they nerfed thrash dot not proccing NV, but still using HotW, if tanking then pop Incarnation or beserk and almost needin no heal in that time and doing alot of dps, using tranq using ToC to lower the dmg on the other tank, having a strong selfheal on some fights is really strong maybe not as strong as absorbs from some classes but still. Symbiosis for tanks or someone else. giving Healing touch to our mage was one of the reasons we didnt have any problems during transitions while fighting leishen. Plus druids are the class with the highest passive Magic and melee mitigation

    I think thats how you play guardian if you dont like it you should reroll. Druids are totally viable on all fights, some classes are better on some fights, but for 95% of the raiding guilds can kill every boss with a bear, i play druid since vanilla still if i had the time and motivation to raid in a guild like kaiadam does i would reroll too or atleast get a toon monk pala or you something like that if i would have too. And if druids would become a bit better than monk he would reroll on his druid


    Quote Originally Posted by Themessiah View Post
    Horridon hc is the example everyone loves here: I struggle even to pick up all of the adds on every gate due to a lack of ranged pick up; by default the mobs run to the tankadin who gets agro from healing... Warriors have endless mobility, dk's have d&d, monks have keg smash(?) - I have faerie fire... oh and taunt!

    Again, the night before last I was tanking Primordius hc and was taking less damage than our warrior I was in with - on average about 4% less damage. Nevertheless I was benched to drag in a tankadin last night - the thinking being that the insane raid healing they put out would help with overall raid damage. My suggestion of people learning to play better (and thus not needing the extra healing) is of course the less popular measure.

    I suppose the problem is twofold: One is that our survivability while very strong is not guaranteed. Second, our toolkit is lacklustre relative to other tanks: Be that ranged pick up, raid cd's, or outright negating fight mechanics (paladin on horridon, dk on jinrok).
    On horridon trust me unless you are a protpala picking up adds is a pain for all classes if you have hunter and maybe a balancedruid that really helps but i think we outperform wariors monks and are equal with dks , we have low cd cleaves, ff, a long range charge, short range charge, vortex. not saying it is easy and a protpala heal aggro is totally insane sometimes.

    On primordius, not 100% certain but the raidhealing affect from protpalas ist not that much stronger than good timed NV if your RL wanted more raidhealing it would have been alot better to exchange the Warrior with the tankadin. and 4% lessdmg is alot especially cause we selfheal alot too, so i think it was the wrong choice, and since the stacking debuff on primordius is applied while beeing meleed a druid takes less stacks then a other classes (we taunt each time the other tanks stacks dropped and i always have alot less then the other tanks and i tanked it nh with erveryone except monk).

    EDIT: Btw i wanted to know if the FR glyph also raises the absorbs from shields (monkshield, priest...). which would help alot on fights like horridon while tanking or maybe even jikun. Maybe they will give a boni next tier that 50% of our overheal with FR is transformed into a shield i dont know. Or make ToC buff stack up twice to get a stronger absorb with one maul. These will not make us op but help alot especially in 25s. Or add to mastery that ToC gets buffed with mastery, %of our heal shields us, or as someone wrote adding a small effect on SD for hits like jikun or horridon which you cant dodge. Cause our mastery is really bad, if you compare it to other tank mastery its even worse.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-04-23 at 10:56 AM.

  10. #50
    Btw i wanted to know if the FR glyph also raises the absorbs from shields (monkshield, priest...). which would help alot on fights like horridon while tanking or maybe even jikun.
    I don't actually know. The glyph is so terrible that I never bothered to test that. Even if it does, it doesn't interact with the 2t15 bonus at all.

    Nevertheless I was benched to drag in a tankadin last night - the thinking being that the insane raid healing they put out would help with overall raid damage. My suggestion of people learning to play better (and thus not needing the extra healing) is of course the less popular measure.
    This has nothing to do with Guardians being "bad", and everything to do with Battle Healer being completely broken. Don't confuse the two.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    I hope you are talking about Tortos hc cause nh you should never die except you are at 485 ilvl or somethin like that. Did you really die from snapping bite all the time or bite + something else. And if you know guardians are RNG on that fight and you struggled with it why do you invite another guardian pug.

    And Arielle is absolutely right, so is kaiadam.
    You cant compare hardcore raiding with most raiding guilds. I totally get why kaiadam changed to monk, but he raids with a undergeared raid maybe even have to drop a healer to meet beserk or make some parts of the fight easier. Was the tactic they used easier with a monk? probably. They would have made small changes if he tanked as a bear, and still managed to kill jikun hc, migh have taken a bit more tries but i am very confident they would have killed it anyway. Most guilds will have much better gear on every raider in 25s once they try jikun, which may result in maybe taking an aditional healer, maye three tanks i dont know. Most people have LMGs now, more Tf items especially in 25s. Top raiding 25s druids are behind the other tanks but its still possible, and top raiding guild want to kill the boss asap, switching tanks dps or heal from tier to tier to get the best Raidcomp is normal while progressraiding.

    In 10m its a totally different story, last tier druids were op on some hc fights, now some other classes are op other fights. most fights need two tanks, so you still ahve another one (maybe not if you have two druids). In 10m tank dps is a much higher amount of the total dmg done, and druids do alot of dps and they dont even need that high vengeance uptime. And thats why most 10s think druids are fine. If other tankclasses would be so OP that you wouldnt be able to kill the boss if you dont have both of these specs than they would do something like they always have.

    We finally got a Protpala, and he MTs most of the fights, and i love how druids work now, beeing very stong OT in 10m, think its sad they nerfed thrash dot not proccing NV, but still using HotW, if tanking then pop Incarnation or beserk and almost needin no heal in that time and doing alot of dps, using tranq using ToC to lower the dmg on the other tank, having a strong selfheal on some fights is really strong maybe not as strong as absorbs from some classes but still. Symbiosis for tanks or someone else. giving Healing touch to our mage was one of the reasons we didnt have any problems during transitions while fighting leishen. Plus druids are the class with the highest passive Magic and melee mitigation

    I think thats how you play guardian if you dont like it you should reroll. Druids are totally viable on all fights, some classes are better on some fights, but for 95% of the raiding guilds can kill every boss with a bear, i play druid since vanilla still if i had the time and motivation to raid in a guild like kaiadam does i would reroll too or atleast get a toon monk pala or you something like that if i would have too. And if druids would become a bit better than monk he would reroll on his druid




    On horridon trust me unless you are a protpala picking up adds is a pain for all classes if you have hunter and maybe a balancedruid that really helps but i think we outperform wariors monks and are equal with dks , we have low cd cleaves, ff, a long range charge, short range charge, vortex. not saying it is easy and a protpala heal aggro is totally insane sometimes.

    On primordius, not 100% certain but the raidhealing affect from protpalas ist not that much stronger than good timed NV if your RL wanted more raidhealing it would have been alot better to exchange the Warrior with the tankadin. and 4% lessdmg is alot especially cause we selfheal alot too, so i think it was the wrong choice, and since the stacking debuff on primordius is applied while beeing meleed a druid takes less stacks then a other classes (we taunt each time the other tanks stacks dropped and i always have alot less then the other tanks and i tanked it nh with erveryone except monk).

    EDIT: Btw i wanted to know if the FR glyph also raises the absorbs from shields (monkshield, priest...). which would help alot on fights like horridon while tanking or maybe even jikun. Maybe they will give a boni next tier that 50% of our overheal with FR is transformed into a shield i dont know. Or make ToC buff stack up twice to get a stronger absorb with one maul. These will not make us op but help alot especially in 25s. Or add to mastery that ToC gets buffed with mastery, %of our heal shields us, or as someone wrote adding a small effect on SD for hits like jikun or horridon which you cant dodge. Cause our mastery is really bad, if you compare it to other tank mastery its even worse.
    Bite + something else of course, I had such a horrible rng with SD that I don't think I dodge a single bite in a few tries. My main problem with SD is that is a chance, nothing for sure. You could technically use SD 100 times and not dodge a single time, see my point?

  12. #52
    I think people put too much stock in the "hardcore guilds try to kill stuff while very undergeared" school of thought. If I swap to the EH trinkets I have instead of my dps ones, I'd be at ilvl 533. Our prot paladin is at ilvl 534, as are the tanks for Method & BL. That's pretty damn close to bis unless you expect to have half thunderforged heroic gear when facing the same bosses as we were. I also don't get the "druid weaknesses only matter in super-high end raiding" statement. I mean, it's not as if bears magically become weaker based on content, a bear is just as much weaker as a paladin on LFR jin'rokh as he is on heroic lei shen. The difference is less meaningful since the content is easier, and more easily covered by healers or good play, but bears are simply weaker across the board right now.

    People also tend to pass around the "druids deal good damage while OT'ing" line as well. Why would druids do more damage as an OT over a paladin or a monk if they don't do as much damage as them while MT? It's not as if druids scale horribly with AP, or that they go cat and do damage, that logic is horribly outdated and an expansion behind.

    Picking up adds on horridon seems to be the same for either my bear or my monk - results-wise at least. The actual add picking is way easier on a druid due to the cast sequence macros I use for my rotation. Also, I'm sure we would've killed Ji-kun as well, or any other boss if I had stuck with my druid. It's just that it would've taken more attempts, more precise play on my part, and I wouldn't have been the last tank standing on 5/13 bosses this tier, or be able to say that I've only died once on our first kills due to a derp death on Jin'rokh while my partner tanks have died a dozen times over.

    Plus druids are the class with the highest passive Magic and melee mitigation
    Magic, tied for best, sure (along with monks & warriors), but definitely not correct for melee if a monk has shuffle up.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-04-23 at 05:49 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    People also tend to pass around the "druids deal good damage while OT'ing" line as well. Why would druids do more damage as an OT over a paladin or a monk if they don't do as much damage as them while MT? It's not as if druids scale horribly with AP, or that they go cat and do damage, that logic is horribly outdated and an expansion behind.
    While it might be anecdotal on my part, I've done 10 and 25man with the same Guardian-spec druid (aka myself) on some fights with the same gear, so I've been able to compared my own parses (usually I'll try to sit myself on farm content if I don't need gear, hopefully gearing up other ppl). I will say it appears that tanking the same boss, some tank classes scale better with Vengeance, and it's likely due to which abilities scale better. The short answer is that all abilities do not scale with Vengeance equally, and while Guardians tend to start out with decent damage at lower Vengeance, certain classes can edge out Guardians at higher Vengeance doing the exact same job. From my personal experience, paladin tanks have been the only tank that could consistently beat my DPS output when doing the same job as me (insert the general disclaimer of skill and gear disparity, etc).

    From an "OT" perspective, all one has to do is put their tanks in a low Vengeance situation. Again, purely anecdotal, doing the same encounter on 10 v 25, assuming lower Vengeance on 10man, I've found myself contributing much more to the raid's total damage output on 10man, especially compared to my tanking partners (heck, I can give some DPS classes a run for their money as Guardian on 10man even if Vengeance isn't completely ridiculous).

    However, let's just throw out everything I said, because it really is just anecdotal and my personal experience. The REAL problem is likely the stigmas that get attached to certain classes/specs, whether they're likely true or not. It's not uncommon that I hear in my guild's post-raid chatter about "Well X sims better than Y, so we should do this instead!" or "Well I read from MMO-Champ/EJ/Method/Paragon/my stepsister/the mailman/etc. that this is how things should be done or this class/spec is horrible!" I constantly have to remind my guild to take all external information with a grain of salt, no matter how reputable the source may be. I'm still a firm believer that skill > all, barring some extreme situation where something is literally impossible.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Yes i know, but since most fights need two tanks its ok for me, If i use your example on jikun the reason you let paladin take so much stacks is cause he will get alot of vengeance and Paladins sclae best with vengeance. then a OT with strong dps is very good for that fight, maybe some druids dont like it that way but thats how it is.
    You may remember the uproar in WotLk when Bears had way more EH and a crappy toolkit. Now bears have the same or less EH and a crappy toolkit. I see no reason Guardians should not complain as vehemently as Warriors did.

  15. #55
    Now bears have the same or less EH
    We actually still have the most EH, except versus physical damage which bypasses armor. Please don't use terms in a manner that doesn't match their definition. Other people who may read it will become confused.

    As for our "toolkit", I do agree there are some things (primarily utility stuff like Innervate and LotP) that could be better or need a redesign. I still do not believe we are as "broken" as people claim though.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    We actually still have the most EH, except versus physical damage which bypasses armor. Please don't use terms in a manner that doesn't match their definition. Other people who may read it will become confused.

    As for our "toolkit", I do agree there are some things (primarily utility stuff like Innervate and LotP) that could be better or need a redesign. I still do not believe we are as "broken" as people claim though.
    I misworded that, I meant after the nerf not now.

    It doesn't matter if Guardians are as broken as claimed. What does matter is Guardians are the weakest and the vast majority of raiders know it.
    Last edited by teddabear; 2013-04-23 at 10:28 PM.

  17. #57
    What does matter is Guardians are the weakest and the vast majority of raiders know it.
    The important question to ask here is "Why?"

    Part of it (at least) is because of Battle Healer. Another part is how useless Tranq is in a 25m group. Since those are both being addressed (jury remains out on whether or not BH nerf is enough), what else could we look at?

    Innervate and LotP are 2 obvious targets. Are there others?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearmaster View Post
    Bite + something else of course, I had such a horrible rng with SD that I don't think I dodge a single bite in a few tries. My main problem with SD is that is a chance, nothing for sure. You could technically use SD 100 times and not dodge a single time, see my point?
    Yes ok but still even when not dodging any bite on nh you could still use say FR to heal up or use cd and not die even with a few hits after that. I would still survive goind füll DPS build on tortos.

    To battlehealer, its really not that strong . NV wasjust nerfed real hard due to the fact it doesnt proc of Thrash dot anymore, still BH is way more powerful now and really broken due to the fact that paladin can tank alot of stuff alone or longer than other tanks. BH is not way paladins are so much stronger than druids

    the OT part: IF you have a tank like monk or pala who can use his stuff so he tanks most of the time, a druid with critbuild next to it will do the alort of dmg without vengeance, plus if you tank the boss and get vengeance and you use incarnation, you will do so much dmg which no other tank will do playing with a pala. Plus using incarnation with nv with high vengeance is a nice raidheal, or you use HotW wrath spam with a good casterweapon the dmg is insane, especially with intpot and maybe agi trinket procs. and beeing able to use the dps LMG which is really broken on druids. in 25m thats maybe not so important but in 10m it is. druid is the only tank beeing able to reduce the dmg done to the current MT

    to kaiadam: i think you missunderstood, its not hardcore raiding guilds are undergeared all the time. what im trying to say is this.

    Raid A) Lets say has a tankcomp Druid and Pala, bot have ilvl 519 average guild is say 515. They try jikun they cant meet berserk or some of the dps are not at their best. they switch to pala monk, while monk maybe at 512. he has so strong cd they can drop maybe a disc and not have PS for the tank and take another dps instead. they kill the boss.

    Raid B) Same tankcomp pala druid both at lets say atleast 525 while raid average is 522, they cleared nh multiple times, and their DK dps has good tankgear. Now they see ok why not take three tanks make it easier or take a disc for PS and drop a DPS. or maybe not even doing anything but due to the fact both tanks have higher ilvl they have more HP more dodge armor crit haste dont know, maybedruid tank has tankLMG. They kill jikun easily with that comp cause they can afford to change strat to tank the boss with a druid. Which Raid A cant.

    And most of the guild are type B. I know topguilds have high ilvl on most of their chars some people actually think they cleared mogu nh with green and blues while most of them having a ilvl higher than 465 or 470 back then. but still what im trying to say is alot of guild will have a much higher ilvl throughout the raid while first killing the boss than your guild. Especially in 25s cause of the automatic nerfsystem they impelemented with TF.

    Monks and pala are best tanking class atm, but still having one with a druid is not that much worse like some people believe. Yes BH is strong but looking at logs its alot of overheal, Monk has very hard cds.

    I just dont like the fact that most of the people are like, pala is so stong with vengeance their shield is insane, BH alone heals the raid for 20k hps, they can solo tank every fight, they have strong selfheal. Then saying a druid can only dodge. Druids have alot of stuff they can do too, and yes they can tank some bosses solo too with a healpala, now someone will say not all 10m have a healpala but if you are into HC raiding and not having a single pala, or going with 2 tank druids, and a shitty raidcomp, of course you will have alot of problems but its a raid with 10 or 25 people that can assist you in alot of ways.

    Druids are fine, they might need a little something for a few boss attacks. Monk and most of all paladins shine in tot yes, but some druids act like you only have SD. HotW is a really strong so is NV on some fights, ToC with vengeance is really stong too, druids can outheal dks with selfhealing. You take alot lessdmg from abilities that dont pass armor, cause you have so much. Plus taifun and that vortex thing can help on adds. high dodge chance giving is really op on fights where you get stacks from melee attacks. Alot just see their druid dying seeing a top tank from a top raiding guild say monk is alot better than druid on 25m, and think druids sucks. Would like to see logs from some people here posting druid suck so hard, uptime on SD ToC used and so on.

    Kaiadam you argue on a very high lvl why monktank is superior to druid, some post here i think some dont even know what their druid can do
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-04-23 at 11:10 PM.

  19. #59
    i love how people are arguing with the Daught. Dude tanks for the #7 guild in the world (west) and has given many, thorough examples of why he says the things he says. At some point people should realize that it's not just 'his opinion' but rather a pretty decent conclusion of real in-game testing at a very very high level with very very high level players around him.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    The important question to ask here is "Why?"

    Part of it (at least) is because of Battle Healer. Another part is how useless Tranq is in a 25m group. Since those are both being addressed (jury remains out on whether or not BH nerf is enough), what else could we look at?

    Innervate and LotP are 2 obvious targets. Are there others?
    Yes, regarding survivability itself - savage defense, T&C, and frenzied regen are overall weaker abilities than their counterparts. Druid EH is definitely higher but when a paladin can chain SoTR as much as savage defense is up, the paladin becomes far harder to kill.

    Self healing: LoTP and frenzied regen aren't anywhere comparable to seal of insight, death strike, monk level 30 talents/gift of the ox, etc. This is an area where warrior is weak as well, but it's depressing to use frenzed regen as your AM for an entire fight and see that you healed yourself for less than half of a paladin's seal of insight + sacred shield, a passive + a free spell you use every 30 seconds.

    Damage prevention is shoddy - T&C is just not enough when compared to spells like AMS, diffuse magic, guard, sotr/divine shield, shield barrier, etc. Other tanks can AM large predictable hits, druids will take them to the face, often with no armor protection, or use their major/minor survival cds.

    Raid cds: Even with the tranquility buff, you're looking at maybe 3 million healing in a 25m raid. Sounds like a lot but that's only ~100k per person. A demo banner takes a single gcd and prevents roughly as much for any significant raid aoe. Tranq doesn't scale off of attack power which almost every other tank healing ability uses, plus it's (generally) unusuable while tanking. But then again, a lot of tank raid cds aren't very powerful, so lets lump them in the same area: devotion aura, avert harm, tranquility, demo banner, and amz for dks.

    Off-healing: Paladins, monks, and dks do a decent amount of healing to the raid, roughly one third as much as an actual healer. NV can't compare, and warriors don't have anything of note.

    Raid damage: Warriors are the clear winners here with banner & shatter (we estimated that a warrior was worth ~15 mil damage in the first 3 minutes, and about 7 mil damage every 3 minutes thereafter in a 25m raid with their shatter + banner.) Yeah, that's roughly 70-100k dps purely from checking warrior at the character creation screen, even if their personal dps isn't huge. Monks do a beastly amount of personal damage and paladins are great at single target as well, but druids again have nothing to offer here, aside from decent all-around damage. Dks suck here.

    Oddball utility spells:
    DK - gorefiend's grasp is absolutely invaluable and vital to some encounters, and at the very least a large dps boost on many others.
    Warriors - rallying cry fits here I guess? heroic leap and intervene gives them some great mobility.
    Paladins - salvation, divine shield, hand of purity, we all know how good these are.
    Monks - somewhat lacking here too, I guess dizzying haze is good for the aoe snare, and you might opt to use transcendence for some weird strats on animus/lei shen. Aoe stun is nice, as is ring of peace.
    Druids - stampeding roar is very useful as well, almost integral to most p3 lei shen strats, plus symbiosis is a useful tool - some of the times. Typhoon is a great control ability as well. Innervate? eh, I think having other people innervate you is a thing of the past. I've used this spell significantly more for regenning mana to rez people than in combat.

    So this has rambled on longer than it should've, but I think druids are somewhat balanced around their raid cds, personal damage, and oddball utility spells. Their survival is fairly weak, about as bad as dks, their raid healing is pretty bad, they have no raid damage ability, and their damage prevention is pretty abysmal.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-04-23 at 11:30 PM.

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