The Power of Fistweaving

[Deleted]

Doesn't make his point any less valid, SZ heals for a pittance and is just bloat at this point.

[Deleted]

Quick question : How do you cleave ? I mean i get a MM for a SCK when i hit 3 Targets. But for BoK i need 2 Chi. So just use BoK after SCK + EH/RM or just SCKx2 and BoK ?
It seems like a waste for me to SCKx2 because of the lost MM procc

[Chuupag]

Quick question : How do you cleave ? I mean i get a MM for a SCK when i hit 3 Targets. But for BoK i need 2 Chi. So just use BoK after SCK + EH/RM or just SCKx2 and BoK ?
It seems like a waste for me to SCKx2 because of the lost MM procc

You've got to get the first chi of the pair from either Expel Harm or ReM. So you are sorta limited to 3 every 16ish seconds.

[Avada Kedavra]

I have found that I am only fistweaving during heavy AOE fights where I can SCK+BOK

I try not to use jab unless i have to.

Is there a traditional rotation for feast weaving?

[Astraios]

Keeping SZ up and autoattacking is not fistweaving as the forums here, on EJ, and battle.net define it. Last tier some of us called it "Zealweaving", but as of 5.2 it does so little healing (remember, it was cut in half) that "keeping SZ up" is nowhere near any theorycrafter's mind. The entire 30 seconds of the SZ buff will barely do more healing than the original Blackout Kick itself, that's how small it is now. The fact that you consider this healing at all is a joke, you're just standing there getting mana back. Just because numbers are popping up doesn't mean you're doing any more healing than a Shaman standing there with Healing Stream down. No one refers to AAing with SZ up as Fistweaving anymore, if you'd taken a little bit to observe the forums before jumping in and telling everyone that they were wrong, you'd know that.

If the raid is topped then extra smart healing from SZ is better than wasting chi. Whether that's better than hardcasting EnvM on a tank (Which actually gets you to your next globals faster, if you're trying to chi dump before ReM/EH come off CD) is debateable, but still a use of it.

[Hottie4Hire]

Of course it's better than wasting chi. It's like saying a billionare would rather spend $1 instead of $5. It's pretty much irrelevant. The chances of it making a difference are incredibly small. You might as well do it over wasting chi, sure, but it shouldn't be considered a viable strategy worth comparing to something else.

[Totaltotemic]

If the raid is topped then extra smart healing from SZ is better than wasting chi. Whether that's better than hardcasting EnvM on a tank (Which actually gets you to your next globals faster, if you're trying to chi dump before ReM/EH come off CD) is debateable, but still a use of it.

Oh no I completely understand that, and it's not like I've taken Jab, TP, and BoK off my bars, I use them all the time whenever I need to dump excess chi or just know that I'm going to have way too much mana for the fight (damn meta gem, how do I get rid of that much spirit at 521 ilvl?) and start fistweaving for shits and giggles. The stance I've been trying to hold onto is that there's nothing inherently beneficial about fistweaving besides the damage, whether you use that extra chi or extra mana on fistweaving or whether you use it on unnecessary Uplifts and SCKs really doesn't matter.

[Thedave]

The stance I've been trying to hold onto is that there's nothing inherently beneficial about fistweaving besides the damage

I'll agree to that.

Cleaveweaving, on the other hand...

[Astraios]

Oh no I completely understand that, and it's not like I've taken Jab, TP, and BoK off my bars, I use them all the time whenever I need to dump excess chi or just know that I'm going to have way too much mana for the fight (damn meta gem, how do I get rid of that much spirit at 521 ilvl?) and start fistweaving for shits and giggles. The stance I've been trying to hold onto is that there's nothing inherently beneficial about fistweaving besides the damage, whether you use that extra chi or extra mana on fistweaving or whether you use it on unnecessary Uplifts and SCKs really doesn't matter.

Well, my co-monk often does 50k dps while doing similar healing (I've had the worst luck on secrets in the world, he has the meta), while I do 10k or less. Granted, I've dropped spirit for throughput for a few progression fights and have less spare mana to fistweave, but 50k is a sizeable number, and 40k increase is not negligible, it could be the difference between a kill or not during progression. (50k is for any fight, not gimmicks like horridon.)

[Xenerix]

50k HPS while fistweaving or 100k HPS while mistweaving can be also diference between wipe and kill, especially with such a generous enrage timers in T15.

[Deleted]

the capacity we have to forget the heal during a few seconds and switch dps is really great

I mean, if you stop watching the HPS, and only heal when needed, you can really make the didfference with a good 60/80k dps

We know its totally useless to heal, even in HC, during some periods ( well jin'rokh hm needs all the heal when ionisation ends and storm, but except this, 3 heals can manage 25 people, and its the same thing on leishen, horridon hm, megara...)

With some good gestion we really can make the difference on the dps side

THIS is our conterbalance to our totally lack of any raid CD. We don't have any utility, don"t have totem, tide, mana hymn, barriere, reduc damage, we have nothing BUT we have the ability to decently switch dps when needed

[Totaltotemic]

the capacity we have to forget the heal during a few seconds and switch dps is really great

I mean, if you stop watching the HPS, and only heal when needed, you can really make the didfference with a good 60/80k dps

We know its totally useless to heal, even in HC, during some periods ( well jin'rokh hm needs all the heal when ionisation ends and storm, but except this, 3 heals can manage 25 people, and its the same thing on leishen, horridon hm, megara...)

With some good gestion we really can make the difference on the dps side

THIS is our conterbalance to our totally lack of any raid CD. We don't have any utility, don"t have totem, tide, mana hymn, barriere, reduc damage, we have nothing BUT we have the ability to decently switch dps when needed

Sure, you think your fistweaving damage matters when you see 60-80k DPS on some meter, but that's almost certainly a measure of DPS during time spent actually doing DPS, not DPS over an entire fight. You're not going to do 80k DPS on a fight while also doing anything other than fistweaving, hell I have 521 ilvl and don't get above 90k for an entire fight of cleaving on Council, which is easily 30-40% more dps than Jab/TP spam. This idea that you can do 80k DPS on a fight and wouldn't be better served by speccing WW and not healing at all is a joke, it doesn't happen that way. If you're doing more than around 50k dps on a non-gimmick fight (no damage bonus like Jin'rokh or Horridon), you should probably re-examine why you're even healing that fight in the first place, you likely don't need that many healers if you can spend that much time fistweaving.

[Dreyo]

Sure, you think your fistweaving damage matters when you see 60-80k DPS on some meter, but that's almost certainly a measure of DPS during time spent actually doing DPS, not DPS over an entire fight. You're not going to do 80k DPS on a fight while also doing anything other than fistweaving, hell I have 521 ilvl and don't get above 90k for an entire fight of cleaving on Council, which is easily 30-40% more dps than Jab/TP spam. This idea that you can do 80k DPS on a fight and wouldn't be better served by speccing WW and not healing at all is a joke, it doesn't happen that way. If you're doing more than around 50k dps on a non-gimmick fight (no damage bonus like Jin'rokh or Horridon), you should probably re-examine why you're even healing that fight in the first place, you likely don't need that many healers if you can spend that much time fistweaving.

But there are circumstances where 80k DPS for a short period of time can be the difference between wiping and not wiping. I'm not talking things like the boss is at 0.05% and you needed the extra damage to kill it, I'm talking things like "crap, someone got lost and we let a Juvenile fly off the nest." Sure, in a perfect world, such supplementary damage should be completely insignificant: it's the job of your DPS to hurt things, and they should be doing it. But the ability to jump in and not be totally useless is not something that should be dismissed completely.

Burst damage can matter. I'd have loved to have MW monks for Spine of Deathwing. It's not the case that only the total-fight average on World of Logs is the only thing that might compel you to start punching something.

[Thedave]

Burst damage can matter. I'd have loved to have MW monks for Spine of Deathwing. It's not the case that only the total-fight average on World of Logs is the only thing that might compel you to start punching something.

I'll never forget Sarth 3D back when it was ridiculously hard... having all but 1 of your healers dps at a certain point of the fight was the reason why the guilds that killed it early on got it. Those that didn't figure it out and didn't think outside the box wiped for a good month after that.

There definitely are fights where you need X healers, but only for certain phases. Monks' and disc priests' ability to dps will be a reason why we are valued over shaman, druids, and hpals for those fights.