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  1. #1

    5.3 Druid Neglect

    So. I keep reading the patch notes and changes, I try to keep up to date. The problem lately is I don't know why I bother. I look on the most recent changes and there never seems to be any orange love on the front page good or bad.

    Now as far as balance goes we got some love last patch but from what I hear Resto is pretty much aids to a 25man group and although I do pretty good in my 10man group the Pallys and Disc Priests just seem to do even better. This isn't intended to be a druid tail of woe I just wounder if anyone knows the reasoning behind it.

    Resto Shamans ever since 5.2 have been getting a lot of attention. I feel it's pretty justified as they tend to lag a little on the heals behind the absorb healers and I have found even behind us as I tend to pull ahead on the slow fights with ooc proc'd regrowths triggering living seed on the tank and shrooms instahealing a big damage tick.

    If nothing else I feel they should give some benefit to using wrath/moonfire at least as fillers to help justify using them at all. I get my HOTW burst and I look like a dps on the meter for all of one minute and during that I do virtually no healing. As far as I can tell shaman have it even worse. I just feel that if you are going to let one heal branch off as dps that sets it on a level above the others especially when it has one of the highest potentials our of all the possible healers. When you look at a tight dps fight will you bring a druid or a disc priest and it doesn't take long to find the answer.

    With all of that said I just want to know if anyone has heard anything about why we seem to be getting ignored in the development. We have some very obvious issues that need to be addressed as far as I can tell either blizzard thinks we are a perfect baseline and wants to balance everything to our level or they are just shafting us outright. The sad part is I haven't seen the cosmic balance scales hanging over the other classes in the patch notes. I just want something to either look forward to or dread in the patch is that so much to ask?

    Anyway thanks for reading my rant let me know what you guys think. If you know something I don't please share.

  2. #2
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    Well, I like my resto druid but the fact of the matter is that the absorb classes make encounters not so fun for the second tier healers. I think we're seeing a lack of patch notes, and development in general, because the developers have painted themselves into a corner and have no clue how to go about fixing our issues.

    We're redundant because absorbs dominate every other type of heal, especially our slow heal over time spells. Replace a resto druid with a holy paladin or disc priest and watch encounters magically get easier. Then throw in the superior utility paladins and priests bring and it's a no brainer...If a paladin or priest is available, take him and ditch the druid. Maybe if we had some sort of amazing utility, it wouldn't matter as much, but hey, we're lacking there as well.

    Honestly, I'm so disgusted by MoP and healer balance that I'm just about done with this game. I'd be gone if it weren't for the newly formed guild I picked up about 4 weeks ago and the friends I've made. I don't want to disappoint them, but in my heart I know they will be better off with a superior healing class. I mean, I don't think I'm amazing or anything, but I work my ass off every night we raid and it doesn't seem to matter. They want to progress and if they replaced me, I think they'd do better.

  3. #3
    What would you really want to change?
    I feel like we are in a pretty good spot right now. So im pretty thankfull, that they dont rollcoaster us around like they do with mages for instance.

    I am also looking forward to Megatreant. All hail our new tree overloards!
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    What would you really want to change?
    I feel like we are in a pretty good spot right now. So im pretty thankfull, that they dont rollcoaster us around like they do with mages for instance.

    I am also looking forward to Megatreant. All hail our new tree overloards!
    We would like to see something..anything. Day after day I look at the main page and never see anything about druids. Today for example, EVERY SINGLE CLASS has something posted it EXCEPT for us. And that is fairly common. We are decent healers but mushrooms still suck, we still get killed by absorbs. Balance is still low single target. And any number of issues they could fix.

    In regards to megatreant I'm not sure what you mean there. Are still going off the extremely outdated info that it was just becoming one? Because it's not. It's 3 charges that you can use whenever with a 1 minute CD.

  5. #5
    Agree that Druids haven't seen a lot of attention in MoP. However Balance and Resto did receive a decent buff in 5.2 and Feral is slotted to receive a decent buff in 5.3. Guardians received Tooth and Nail which isn't very exciting but most people agree there isn't too big a difference between tanks. So while Druids have received little attention the the buffs they did receive were pretty helpful assuming the Feral buff goes through this time. I think Resto is where it needs to be, the problem is Absorbs are off the chart OP. Also agree that Blizzard has painted themselves into a corner. If they now nerf absorbs, which absolutely needs to be done, encounters are going to become immensely harder. On the other hand if you are currently raiding without a Disc Priest and Pally you are at an extreme disadvantage.

  6. #6
    The overwhelming presence of "smart" AoE heals has kind of taken over what was previously the Resto Druid's "niche". This coupled with the fact that some spells just don't get cast (Nourish, HT) and buggy Mushrooms, make a lot of Resto druids feel like they don't bring a lot to a raid group.

    This is a message that Druids have been saying pretty loudly for a while. The most likely thing is that Blizzard simply hasn't found a way to fix the problem yet, without making Resto even better in PvP than they already are.

  7. #7
    The point of the post wasn't to cry about absorbs or anything like that. In my OP I set out to make the case that we are not balanced with the other healing specs except for maybe resto shaman.

    Druids seem to have the throughput edge but shamans have a mass of clutch cooldowns. Then we have Disc and holy palls up on the pedistal atm with monks somewhere above the druids and shamans of the world(I don't raid with a monk presently and I honestly don't know all that much about them except in all of my reading they seem to be good in 25s where druids seem to be hurting)'

    I don't know if the developers pay any attention to the community or if they live in there own little world. I just wanted to get a post out there that without undue moaning and groaning that says we aren't happy to see the neglect we have been receiving. I frequent the druid forums and I have seen what a lot of people have been posting. I also play a resto druid in a very successful 10man raid group so I know whats mostly bluster and what is fact.

    Anyway No love from the tweeking our toolkit in the patchnotes bad
    Not enough evening of the other heals to make a case that we are any kind of baseline bad
    The love we got in 5.2 and some of the disc nerfs Good (that helped me feel like maybe it was worth sticking with druid in 5.2)
    Resto Shammy love in the patch and hotfixes Good (our turn next?)

  8. #8
    The buff that resto druids received is just barely noticeable. We're still last depending on the fight. It's 50/50 depending on the fight between druids and shamans for the last spot on the overall healing meters.

  9. #9
    Sometimes not having your specialization or class show up on blue post is actually better. Would you rather see
    Natural Insight now increases your mana pool by 300%, down from 400%.
    and more instead?
    It is sometimes better to not be the best healing class because you'll be targeted for nerfs to balance out with other healers if they don't want to buff other healers or feel they are in a good spot.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Williee View Post
    Sometimes not having your specialization or class show up on blue post is actually better. Would you rather see
    Natural Insight now increases your mana pool by 300%, down from 400%.
    and more instead?
    It is sometimes better to not be the best healing class because you'll be targeted for nerfs to balance out with other healers if they don't want to buff other healers or feel they are in a good spot.
    Yes because pallys and disc priests have received so many nerfs....

  11. #11
    When they do buff/nerf they give what passes at least to them as a bit of justification. I would like someone to admit they have a problem with pve healing class balance right now and some attempt to fix it.

    5.2 was a try on there part I just don't think they realized how big the absorb gap really made things. They wanted to rework a broken part of our toolkit and they did that is it as strong as they maybe thought it was gonna be? I doubt it. Shrooms still have the same weakness in gcd cost and time spent for them to grow but they are worth while now to use atleast once or twice over the coarse of most fights. If you preplant them at most if costs you 1 gcd for a good heal.

    If they keep boosting the classes that fall behind till they become more competitive I will be happy. Thats what this post is all about being behind and not having the problem acknowleged. The raiding world obviously knows somethings wrong it shows up in our classes desirability in higher end raiding guilds.

    Finally yes I don't mind seeing something thats OP get a nerf. I like to read the justifications that the devs put up to support their descisions. I tend to reroll at the start of every xpac and I have been on both sides of those nerfs many times.

  12. #12
    I don't really see it as druids needing some form of healing buff but that absorb heals need to be brought down. Like someone else has said Blizz have set it up now to a point where the only way to fix it would be to do some major changes to absorb mechanics and that will piss a whole lot of people off. Think about it, if absorbs were brought down a peg or two the difference between non disc and paladin healers wouldn't be much. All other healers get screwed over by absorbs making them less effective, the change to disc's mastery recently is obviously a slight change in the right direction but still needs more work. I wonder if by next expansion absorbs will slowly be brought down to a more utility level, instead of a mandatory level.

  13. #13
    Heroic Tortos with the healing absorb mechanic is pretty much the only place where druids weren't garbage and even then that's still middle of the pack (Monks ranked a lot higher). Compared to Holy priests (Blizz's standard "metric" for healing), druids are not in a bad place at all, but that's like comparing to the ugly duckling that nobody likes.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Yes because pallys and disc priests have received so many nerfs....
    Look at how much QQ the priest forums got when they did the PoH nerf, and despite that look at where they are right now (hint: it's not last place).

  14. #14
    Dont know if you have notice that monks are doing extremelly well and shamans seem to have increase their output after recent buffs so we are actually competing with holy priests for last spot!!!

    In some cases monks are doing better than discs currently. (25man especially)

  15. #15
    Holy is actually better than resto in a 25 man setting. 10 man might be another story but right now in 25 man. Resto druids are dead last.

  16. #16
    Monks are the ideal compliment to Disc Priests and Pallies. If you had your choice in a 10 man why would you not go with a Disc, Pally and Monk? Even pugs don't want Resto Druids.

  17. #17
    I play a resto druid, and from a Rdruid point of view.. Everything seems to be ok. EXCEPT, when 5.2 hit, I could never keep up enough mana in PvE.. I get as much spirit as possible already, coupled with Int. And it was fine up until 5.2.. Now During most fights I have to ask for a priest Hymn. Which I notice has been tweaked a little, cause I can get a little more than 1/2 my mana pool back. Used to be a priest hymn really did nothing.. Now as far as PvP, Arenas & RBGs.. I'm not that great in arenas, but I'd like to think I can hold my own, especially with the amount of mobility a Rdruid can bring.. You just gotta be on top of it and fast.

    As far as meters go for an RBG or Reg-Bg, I top charts, from both teams.. I like that.. But in PvE, (LFRs) I'm not so hot in terms of ranking number. I'm not sure why.. It's not like I slack off or anything, and I do have pretty good gear.. As I said one thing though, for an Rdruid, Give us our "in-combat", PvE, mana re-gen back!

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 11:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Demolocklol View Post
    Holy is actually better than resto in a 25 man setting. 10 man might be another story but right now in 25 man. Resto druids are dead last.
    Yup, and that pisses me off, 'Cause I top charts in PvP.
    Last edited by Violent; 2013-04-16 at 04:14 AM.
    "The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt."

  18. #18
    This has descended into something completely off of what I had origanally posted. A good aggressive resto druid can do some pretty good numbers. I know we have to work a lot harder for it without the absorb healing.

    As far as disc goes they have been getting steady nerf after nerf and its all warented. The smart heal off of atonement is silly. I smite a target do damage the game then heals the lowest target around and can give them an absorb on top of this. It also scales with target specific damage increases. I don't know what thought process they used to think that was balanced but they have been taking it down gradually for a while now.

    Pretty much the very slow dismantling of disc utility is the only action I see that is being taken to balance healing. Personally I get beat worse by a holy pally than a disc priest. If you look at the meters something like 1/3 of their healing can be illuminated healing. Something about them not even trying right now is leaving me feeling very jaded on the game as a whole.

  19. #19
    High Overlord Souxlya's Avatar
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    There is a saying we have in my guild whenever I'm asked to heal. Pally and disc priests heal's heal, and Soux's overheal!

    Blizzard has pushed themselves into a strange corner because this isn't new, really at all. Since Wrath if you didn't have a pally and a disc priest you pretty much weren't a progression guild. But as time has gone on, the Resto druid style has quite frankly gone out of style. There is only one encounter which was perfect for resto druids, do you know what it was? ToC Anub'rak in his final phase. We could keep everyone alive, but at low enough health to kill the boss. Otherwise our whole style is "overhealing" with rejuv blankets, Lifebloom, Efflorescence and now mushrooms. . . and last I checked its been that way since Wrath, even more so with Nourish actually being useful but again requiring overhealing (more hots on the target more it heals for)

    The are only three heals I can see as being part of an overall healing style that I think is what Blizzard wants us to be. Those heals are Regrowth, Wild Growth and Tranqu. Wild growth works well because of the "quick heal" ramp up style, its aoe, a HoT, and its a smart heal. Regrowth is perfect because it acts in three ways, direct, "shield (livingseed)", and as a HoT. Last is Tranqu, a direct heal plus a stacking HoT, and it is smart. All three of these heals feel like triage healing, which in essence they are, but they also can act as "direct" preemptive healing similar to Disc Priests shields and Pallies absorbs. That is of course if healing was shift around to make these three spells our "healing style"*** if all the other classes are any indication of what they want "healing style" to be, instead of hybrid back up rejvu heals.

    *** Regrowth to take the place of healing touch, one of the only ways to proc living-seed, continues to act as it currently does, maybe without the HoT affect. Living-seed becomes either a shorter term "Lifebloom's bloom effect, think of it like a seed, you plant it, wait for it to grow (2-3 seconds?) and then harvest it (blooms) on next contact (spells/DoTs/direct). Or Living-seed just procs from any damage which takes the target below 99% health, instead of only its current "direct" hits.

    Wild Growth in essence takes the place of Revju, using it for a quick preemptive heal over several targets, or a triage HoT that applies quickly for the first 3 seconds, tapering off for the last 3.

    Tranqu has lifebloom baked into it and is no longer a raid cooldown. Now a direct heal, without a living seed proc, but at the bonus of having a stacking prolonged hot (Think of tranqus current 3 stacks and how Lifebloom stacks, change their names and length to Tranqu's hot being to 4-9 seconds)

    This is an idea, nothing more, take it how you will.


    TL;DR Resto

    This isn't me saying druids are terrible healers, just stating something I think a lot of the community can or might agree with. Blizzard doesn't know what to do about the monster they created in "absorbs" "stop it before it happens" "trigger when it happens" healing. It has been over powered for a long time, but as we have moved from Wrath and through MoP it is only getting worse. How do you make a HoT based class, one that is a "patience" style of healing go up against "preemptive triage"
    style? You simply can't, one has to give somewhere and sadly that will either be the death of the rejuv (HoT) based druids, or the end of repetitive preemptive triage (shields + absorbs).

    Balance

    Balance is another monster in and of itself. We are to close on the little gray scale to tip into being grossly overpower or our current state "Meh? You could be strong, but you fail to Eclipse and SS range mechanic (bad luck proc rate, wasted procs out of our control), oh yea and movement with dot clipping lol. But you can burst dps, as your opener . . .!" Balance needs an entire overhaul, but how do they achieve this with the current idea behind "balancing eclipse" states, making mastery play a key role, and talent specialization giving you that unique cool class ability (Starsurge/Starfall). They can't because they are to afraid to jerk us in a totally new direction and play style.

    TL;DR

    I agree that the reason we haven't been up on the development side for this entire expansion so far is because they are stuck. How do we make one of the most played hybrid classes fit into our mold and maintain the very reason most people play a druid now? Our play style doesn't fit the current class and WoW model anymore, we are a niche, and not one that is benefiting the game on the same level as we used to. Personally I hope they scrap the whole "Pures should always be better then hybrids". Give everyone a hybrid and everyone wins! Warlock tanks, Hunter tanks, Mage healers ya! (I can hope and dream, right?)

    With treants seeing a change so "quickly", in the most recent patch to losing their circle placement and getting a bit stronger (The second patch in a row), my hope is that Blizzard is really listening to druids. But their big and wild plans are to big and wild to be placed in this expansion. In the end it could just be another Cata, buff, buff, nerf, nerf, nerf, re-adjust original buff, nerf, minor buff, leave to next expansion where we all have hope. /Blizzard shoots hope and leaves things the same way with slightly different wording.

    I'm right there with OP, I am constantly looking for Orange among all the Blue every patch.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Souxlya View Post
    Blizzard doesn't know what to do about the monster they created in "absorbs" "stop it before it happens" "trigger when it happens" healing. It has been over powered for a long time, but as we have moved from Wrath and through MoP it is only getting worse. How do you make a HoT based class, one that is a "patience" style of healing go up against "preemptive triage" style? You simply can't, one has to give somewhere and sadly that will either be the death of the rejuv (HoT) based druids, or the end of repetitive preemptive triage (shields + absorbs).
    Actually there is a simple solution to that problem (10 man perspective): we need fights with constant ticking AoE damage again. Imagine the current bosses, with their long dull phases (where Pala and Disc prepare their bubbles for the next burst), just doing 10k dps to every player in addition to current mechanics (except in burn phases). Shields would stop to be OP right away, because they won't be there when the big burst comes; instead they get eaten up by the damage all the time. It would also make "Wrath-style" hot healing viable again, which is what our class is still designed around.

    You can see how we blow palas and discs out of the window on constant HPS fights (HC Tortos), it's just that there is only one of these in the current tier. Bring back the Wrath-style AoE damage, and druids will shine once again.
    A good example is Will of the Emperor 10 HC (mogu endboss), which has constant AoE damage, and druids were doing great there.

    Another problem is that many bosses are weirdly balanced around 2.5 healers, so if you do them with 3 healers, the druid will be the .5. IMO most bosses (even heroic) do too little group damage for druids.

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