1. #5181
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    What I see is that as a country we are just taking another step down the slippery slope of abandoning our rights and freedom in exchange for 'safety'. Sure the media narrative makes these guys look absolutely guilty, but the truth is the media could make a ham sandwich look guilty. Nobody here has first hand information, everyone assumes they know what happened because of blurry photos and what the government/media told you. To me it is a complete shame that after all the BS of the last decade the wider population still lines up like a bunch of jingoistic cattle doing their best imitation of Pavlov's dog.
    Talk about a slippery slope argument.

  2. #5182
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly Willy View Post
    So you're going to put him in a dangerous situation knowing full well he may get killed. Sounds like manslaughter.
    Nope, its not manslaughter.

  3. #5183
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    I fail to see how thats entrapment.

    If we have the responciblity to let him free on a technicallity, fine, let him off the bus somewhere he not like. We wouldn't have a responciblity after he was released.
    hell no.... USA country of frivolous lawsuits....
    You let him free where he gets in danger of his life and loses it.... Bam, civil lawsuit. rake over millions of dollars to the family of him, for neglect or what ever the lawyers come up with.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  4. #5184
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    Nope, its not manslaughter.
    You still knowingly put him in a situation that led to his death.

  5. #5185
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    What I see is that as a country we are just taking another step down the slippery slope of abandoning our rights and freedom in exchange for 'safety'. Sure the media narrative makes these guys look absolutely guilty, but the truth is the media could make a ham sandwich look guilty. Nobody here has first hand information, everyone assumes they know what happened because of blurry photos and what the government/media told you. To me it is a complete shame that after all the BS of the last decade the wider population still lines up like a bunch of jingoistic cattle doing their best imitation of Pavlov's dog.
    I can say with confidence that the ppl were searched were happy to comply with the request. All I saw last night was the feeling of relief in their eyes from my perspective. I think your really focused on something that really is pretty strange considering the consequence of not being cooperative and vigilant citizens may have indangering their own lives.

  6. #5186
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    What I see is that as a country we are just taking another step down the slippery slope of abandoning our rights and freedom in exchange for 'safety'. Sure the media narrative makes these guys look absolutely guilty, but the truth is the media could make a ham sandwich look guilty. Nobody here has first hand information, everyone assumes they know what happened because of blurry photos and what the government/media told you. To me it is a complete shame that after all the BS of the last decade the wider population still lines up like a bunch of jingoistic cattle doing their best imitation of Pavlov's dog.
    You're not supposed to use "slippery slope" in your own argument.

    The people calling for blood are the exact reason we have checks and balances in the system. The hope, however, is that he isn't robbed of due process under the umbrella of an invented war.

  7. #5187
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly Willy View Post
    You still knowingly put him in a situation that led to his death.
    maybe we can put him up in your house for a little bit mr.grizzly

  8. #5188
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    maybe we can put him up in your house for a little bit mr.grizzly
    Oh, appeal to emotion. I do like that.

    "I'm innocent, I didn't kill the guy, the lions I locked him up with did."

  9. #5189
    Scarab Lord ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    yeah that's what I said from the start..

    I only really pointed out that there are 2 courts involved, for those who aren't familiar. The criminal court that handles the crime, and the immigration court. Of course assuming the criminal trial verdict results in guilty.
    Some of the pro-NDAA posters earlier who wanted him stripped of his citizenship ASAP - I thought you were agreeing that the government could legally do that, but would probably choose not to do so. (Of course, the Feds can try to do whatever they want with the whole enemy combatant/loss of citizenship thing, the only question is if the Supreme Court will let them.) And I do agree with you that the suggestion he be tried as an enemy combatant is probably just BS from senators McCain and Graham; if Obama says no, then he's "soft on terror" or some other BS. In the (unlikely) event he says yes, then he's "attacking your rights". (Although part of me is scared at the idea that they might actually mean what they're saying.)

  10. #5190
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly Willy View Post
    Oh, appeal to emotion. I do like that.

    "I'm innocent, I didn't kill the guy, the lions I locked him up with did."

    Lol, now your getting my logic.

    You do know im fucking around right?

  11. #5191
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Nobody here has first hand information, everyone assumes they know what happened because of blurry photos and what the government/media told you.
    Yes, it could be entirely possible that the brothers are stooges and everyone involved from the Law Enforcement to the Media to anyone who interacted recently with the brothers one way or another are plants.

    Or maybe there's actually some decent evidence that these two are guilty or at least strongly related to the bombing and that everything that occured in the past 36 hours actually happened.

    I mean, fuck, I've never been to Africa. At this point I guess I'm only accepting that it exists based on good faith. I've no actual proof of my own that says it exists.
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2013-04-20 at 10:10 PM.

  12. #5192
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    Yes, it could be entirely possible that the brothers are stooges and everyone involved from the Law Enforcement to the Media to anyone who interacted recently with the brothers one way or another are plants.

    Or maybe there's actually some decent evidence that these two are guilty or at least strongly related to the bombing and that everything that occured in the past 36 hours actually happened.

    But but but...alex jones said....

  13. #5193
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    Some of the pro-NDAA posters earlier who wanted him stripped of his citizenship ASAP - I thought you were agreeing that the government could legally do that, but would probably choose not to do so. (Of course, the Feds can try to do whatever they want with the whole enemy combatant/loss of citizenship thing, the only question is if the Supreme Court will let them.) And I do agree with you that the suggestion he be tried as an enemy combatant is probably just BS from senators McCain and Graham; if Obama says no, then he's "soft on terror" or some other BS. In the (unlikely) event he says yes, then he's "attacking your rights". (Although part of me is scared at the idea that they might actually mean what they're saying.)
    The last thing you will see from me is jumping on the anti immigration wagon. I'm an immigrant too. I'd consider that enormously hypocrite. I don't defend criminal immigrants though, they are just hurting all immigrants. I defend the legal procedures, that apply to everyone living here. I think we are in agreement.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  14. #5194
    Quote Originally Posted by Shennanigans View Post
    I can say with confidence that the ppl were searched were happy to comply with the request. All I saw last night was the feeling of relief in their eyes from my perspective. I think your really focused on something that really is pretty strange considering the consequence of not being cooperative and vigilant citizens may have indangering their own lives.
    The problem with everyone merely beein a 'cooperative and vigilant citizen' is that while it sounds good in concept it leads people to stop questioning those who really do have power, ie the gigantic police state. I believe that the media and the government want to have the narrative that nobody is safe from terrorism, because then it justifies more infringement upon individual liberties. In reality you probably have an exponentially greater chance of being killed because you drive too fast than you have from dying in a terrorist attack; does this mean it would be reasonable for the government to lock up every motorist who drives in excess of 25mph?

    The point is, lots of stupid and bad BS was pushed through by the government after 9/11 because people were scared. Nowadays most of this BS doesn't even go through the normal legislature, it is instead decided by secret memorandum and other ridiculous un-constitutional methods. The police just do things and everyone goes along with it, and there are fewer checks and balances because the most important check on power is a population that is constantly skeptical and questioning of authority. They are supposed to work for you, they are supposed to serve the public not be some sort of kevlar covered daddy figure 'protecting' you from all the boogeymen of the world.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...nger-democracy

  15. #5195
    https://twitter.com/J_tsar/status/236345246567526400
    The value of human life ain't shit nowadays that's #tragic

  16. #5196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    The last thing you will see from me is jumping on the anti immigration wagon. I'm an immigrant too. I'd consider that enormously hypocrite. I don't defend criminal immigrants though, they are just hurting all immigrants. I defend the legal procedures, that apply to everyone living here. I think we are in agreement.
    I'm an immigrant, and I also work with legal resident immigrants trying to get permanent citizenship. A few things to note:

    1) Once you are a naturalized citizen, you have the same rights as a natural born citizen, with one exception: You cannot be President. That means anything that would strip citizenship rights of a naturalized citizen would also be enough to strip the rights of a natural born citizen. Currently, only treason and acts of war qualify. There is no evidence of either in this case yet. To insinuate that we should be able to strip naturalized citizens of their citizenship for "violent crime" is ridiculous and, in my opinion, a dangerous/stupid and possibly bigoted view to have.

    2) Any legal alien in this country can be deported and stripped of residency status for any felony, already. It doesn't have to be violent. You can be deported for a DUI. You can also be deported for a bunch of misdemeanors as well, depending on the intent shown in those misdemeanors. As someone who works with legal aliens, I can tell you about 75%-85% of all legal aliens who commit crimes are deported. I'd say 99.9999% of aliens who commit felonies are deported, and I only say that because I try to not speak in absolutes, but I've yet to hear of a case where a legal alien wasn't deported for committing a felony. The ones who aren't deported commit really minor misdemeanors.

    3) Any illegal alien in this country can be deported simply by being found.

    The point of all this is that we have the systems in place, and in this particular case, we saw two refugees who sought asylum and were granted it, and one eventually given citizenship. They had, until last Monday, not committed any crimes at all.

  17. #5197
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Why are you folks defending this guy? He doesn't have the right to be a citizen of the Earth or the United States. He shouldn't even damn well get a trial. There are times when you kill a person and be done with it. Bombings/murder should fall under this.
    At what point do citizens not get trials anymore? When do we throw out due process?

    Trials aren't a service we do for the accused, they're how we determine guilt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  18. #5198
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    Yes, it could be entirely possible that the brothers are stooges and everyone involved from the Law Enforcement to the Media to anyone who interacted recently with the brothers one way or another are plants.

    Or maybe there's actually some decent evidence that these two are guilty or at least strongly related to the bombing and that everything that occured in the past 36 hours actually happened.

    I mean, fuck, I've never been to Africa. At this point I guess I'm only accepting that it exists based on good faith. I've no actual proof of my own that says it exists.
    I'm not arguing that the evidence, at face value, is not compelling. My problem is that it has been portrayed as a tidy little narrative as if it was presented in the form of an NCIS episode. The reason why there is a delay between what you might read as first or second hand accounts on twitter and when it is presented through the media, is because there is a ton of editing that takes place on the way to anything being presented to the public. Often times any accounts that might put the narrative into question are conveniently left out, and we end up with a general public that smugly thinks it knows what is going on. I am not stating that you should question any one story specifically, instead there needs to be skepticism applied to the whole system(the media) in general.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...nger-democracy

  19. #5199
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Why are you folks defending this guy? He doesn't have the right to be a citizen of the Earth or the United States. He shouldn't even damn well get a trial. There are times when you kill a person and be done with it. Bombings/murder should fall under this.
    Because we persecute to the full extent of the law, and the law demands certain measures be taken. Whether he does or doesn't deserve death is to be determined by the courts. No matter what the decision, he will never be a free man again. That is our legal system. If you wish a more barbaric system, I welcome you to push for one.

  20. #5200
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    I'm not arguing that the evidence, at face value, is not compelling. My problem is that it has been portrayed as a tidy little narrative as if it was presented in the form of an NCIS episode. The reason why there is a delay between what you might read as first or second hand accounts on twitter and when it is presented through the media, is because there is a ton of editing that takes place on the way to anything being presented to the public. Often times any accounts that might put the narrative into question are conveniently left out, and we end up with a general public that smugly thinks it knows what is going on. I am not stating that you should question any one story specifically, instead there needs to be skepticism applied to the whole system(the media) in general.
    Hey, a healthy amount of skepticism can be welcome. I loved Carlin and that seemed to be a pretty key tenet for him. "Don't just teach your children to read, teach them to question what they read." You can draw your own line on that one.

    Point about the media though, I think it deserves mention that in this particular case a lot of us actually skipped the middle man and largely bypassed media accounts anyway by listening directly to police scanners and being minutes (or hours?) ahead of the press. Unless you suppose those aren't reliable either.

    And in the media's defense, there are reasons why they're sometimes behind, including some amount of fact-checking and being more accountable than someone on twitter. They get shit for being slow but they also get shit for hastily rushing out inaccurate news.
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2013-04-20 at 10:55 PM.

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