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  1. #261
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Not humans. The Alliance. Specifically, the Grand Alliance centered around Stormwind. They have no legitimate claims to any of the Lordaeron, Alterac, or Arathi territories and are foreign invaders.
    Nobody has any inherent right to Alterac, that is a pointless discussion.
    Arathi? Holy moley how can they not have a claim to the land when they have the Stromgarde Humans. What right do the Forsaken have to the land then?
    Lordaeron? Well the Alliance do have a few Lordaeron refugees here and there and especially would after TBC where many Lordaeron foot soldiers would've been. They have no where near as many people compared to the Forsaken I will grant you, but they still have a right. OR as Kosak summed up - https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/298167592093364224

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    While some of the satellite areas around the old Lordaeron kingdom are technically up for grabs, the Alliance is antagonizing the Forsaken by taking aggressive actions so close to their territory. Just like how the US didn't take too kindly to the USSR putting nukes in Cuba.
    Where is this happening?
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-04-20 at 07:21 PM.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Nobody has any inherent right to Alterac, that is a pointless discussion.
    Arathi? Holy moley how can they not have a claim to the land when they have the Stromgarde Humans. What right do the Forsaken have to the land then?
    Well the prince of stromgarde is a member of the forsaken.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Well the prince of stromgarde is a member of the forsaken.
    "Yes... I was once Prince of the fallen kingdom of Stromgarde."
    "This too failed, but my successor will have done the same."
    "I am Forsaken. My old existence means nothing."


    He has made it clear that he does not consider himself the rightful heir or anything of the sort after his death.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    "Yes... I was once Prince of the fallen kingdom of Stromgarde."
    "This too failed, but my successor will have done the same."
    "I am Forsaken. My old existence means nothing."


    He has made it clear that he does not consider himself the rightful heir or anything of the sort after his death.
    Kind of makes you think he's not quite loyal to the forsaken.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    "Yes... I was once Prince of the fallen kingdom of Stromgarde."
    "This too failed, but my successor will have done the same."
    "I am Forsaken. My old existence means nothing."


    He has made it clear that he does not consider himself the rightful heir or anything of the sort after his death.
    True, that city is such a dump now even the forsaken don't want it.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Kind of makes you think he's not quite loyal to the forsaken.
    He does seem rather empathetic as far as Forsaken go.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Kind of makes you think he's not quite loyal to the forsaken.
    Seems to imply the opposite really.
    Last edited by leaks; 2013-04-20 at 07:23 PM.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    True, that city is such a dump now even the forsaken don't want it.
    Ha reminds me of this - http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Call_to_Arms

    "The living consider these gutted ruins worth clinging to. Their sentimentality is disgusting!"

    Sounds so ironic given how they launched an offensive for that exact reason .

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    What we do know is that their first interaction with "Alliance" was Garithos. A man who at the time was not acting under authority of the Alliance leadership. Yet despite this he allied with the Forsaken until he was betrayed by the Forsaken who then killed the remaining living of Lordaeron they could.
    I love it when people bring this up, when they are completely incorrect. Garithos WAS the Alliance leadership in what remained of the Post Fall chain of command in Lordaeron. He was the highest ranking Military Officer remaining in the area out of the Human part of the Alliance of Lordaeron. He WAS acting spokesman of the Alliance at the time, and wielded enough influence through his bestowed title as Grand Martial to actually request and recieve aid from Ironforge. Spin it how you want, but Garithos's actions were, and SHOULD be considered the actions of the Alliance at the time. You dont get disown him simply because he didnt recieve his orders directly from a committee member meeting of the acting Alliance faction heads.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Nobody has any inherent right to Alterac, that is a pointless discussion.
    Arathi? Holy moley how can they not have a claim to the land when they have the Stromgarde Humans. What right do the Forsaken have to the land then?
    Lordaeron?
    "Rights" dont mean jack shit to anyone. There is no tag on land that says "property of ____ nation". All nations have taken their territory from others, and those from others, and so on and so forth till the beginning of time.
    An undead can claim a land just as easily as a human can.

    The only thing that matters if you have the power to back up said claims. Rights are an idea/thought, saying you have a right to whatever dsnt mean shit

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Spin it how you want, but Garithos's actions were, and SHOULD be considered the actions of the Alliance at the time. You dont get disown him simply because he didnt recieve his orders directly from a committee member meeting of the acting Alliance faction heads.
    Also to note is that random NPCs dont have such a world view.
    Forsaken see the actions of the Scarlet Crusade as reason to hate humans
    Humans see the Wrath Gate as reason to hate undead

    Common people dont give a fuck to make such distinctions
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    He does seem rather empathetic as far as Forsaken go.
    Yeah, he does. That can be a real liability.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    I guess you didn't know that the Forsaken attacked Gilneas at gunpoint. Garrosh literally had a massive army poised to destroy UC if they didn't invade.

    They don't raise people into mindless servitude, everyone they raise has free will and chooses to join the Forsaken. Why do they choose to join the Forsaken? Because humans are assholes.
    So they murder someone and then raise them going you fight for us and your friends now hate you... some choice. Personally I'd work my way through the undercity and cut that bitches throat myself. Heck if a random Gilnean can it can't be that hard.
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  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Also to note is that random NPCs dont have such a world view.
    Forsaken see the actions of the Scarlet Crusade as reason to hate humans
    Humans see the Wrath Gate as reason to hate undead

    Common people dont give a fuck to make such distinctions
    There is also this.

    When it comes down to it, this is the crux of the entire topic at hand for this thread. The Forsaken do not directly hate "The Alliance", rather, they are hostile to them largely by association. The Forsaken mainly have a hate of "Humans" who have gone out of their way to persecute them and treat them like shit simply for being undead. So as a result, they lash out at pretty much any humans who look even remotely hostile. Advance the story along a bit, and you go from "Hostile Humans in Red and White outfits" to "hostile Humans in "insert color here outfits", and pretty soon you are attacking the Alliance, just by association with the fact that some Humans are Alliance.

    I mean, other then the Argent Dawn, can you actually name a Human run organization that has not tried to kill or injure the forsaken at pretty much every encounter?

  14. #274
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    Forsaken betrayed and killed the first human forces they encountered without any remorse you know that. And then they went on killing other humans who were not doing anything to them on the suspicion that they might some day help their enemies. None of these people tried to kill forsaken.
    Forsaken never showed that they should be dealt with anything other than suspicion to everyone.

    I mean how does this 'poor forsaken that only tries to defend itself' trip that keeps getting repeated work?
    Last edited by cenkiss; 2013-04-20 at 08:53 PM.

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    I love it when people bring this up, when they are completely incorrect. Garithos WAS the Alliance leadership in what remained of the Post Fall chain of command in Lordaeron. He was the highest ranking Military Officer remaining in the area out of the Human part of the Alliance of Lordaeron. He WAS acting spokesman of the Alliance at the time, and wielded enough influence through his bestowed title as Grand Martial to actually request and recieve aid from Ironforge. Spin it how you want, but Garithos's actions were, and SHOULD be considered the actions of the Alliance at the time. You dont get disown him simply because he didnt recieve his orders directly from a committee member meeting of the acting Alliance faction heads.
    Being Alliance and representing the Alliance are two different things.
    The point I was trying to make was that his actions were not representative of the Alliance's beliefs and structure as a faction due to the circumstances of his power, how could they be? He had no contact. I never said his actions were "Alliance actions" I said they weren't representative.

    That's the distinction I was making.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-04-20 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Too much rambling

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Being Alliance and representing the Alliance are two different things.
    That's the distinction I was making.
    What a faction "represents" completely depends on the people who make up that faction.
    Such an idea is different from race to race, person to person
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Being Alliance and representing the Alliance are two different things.
    Except the problem here is you're dealing with Alliance leadership and part of being a leader is that you represent those you lead. I didn't see any member of the Alliance voice any dissension against his behavior, making your suggestion that they thought differently weak indeed. It's dishonest to say that Alliance leadership doesn't represent the Alliance. Leadership are the ones making decisions. Leadership are those who command the masses. If the rest of the Alliance didn't agree with this guy, they should have showed signs of dissension, but they didn't. It was people who would become members of the Horde that stood up to him - not members of the Alliance. If one of your leaders is brazenly acting contrary to your faction, you need to do something to unseat that person from power; your silence is consent.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Well the prince of stromgarde is a member of the forsaken.
    Seriously, what has Danath been up to for the last three expansions?

    They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle. Your gods are not your gods, outsider.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Nobody has any inherent right to Alterac, that is a pointless discussion.
    How about the Frostwolves who had been living there in peace for years until the Dwarves invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Arathi? Holy moley how can they not have a claim to the land when they have the Stromgarde Humans. What right do the Forsaken have to the land then?
    The way absolute monarchies work is that all the land belongs to the nobles/royalty. Peasants and farmers don't own shit. With the king MIA, all the land goes to the prince, who is part of the Forsaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Lordaeron? Well the Alliance do have a few Lordaeron refugees here and there and especially would after TBC where many Lordaeron foot soldiers would've been. They have no where near as many people compared to the Forsaken I will grant you, but they still have a right. OR as Kosak summed up - https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/298167592093364224
    Lordaeron is another absolute monarchy, all the land belongs to the nobles/royalty. Peasants and farmers don't own shit. The Kingdom of Lordaeron collapsed, so the land goes to the new regime under Queen Sylvanas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Where is this happening?
    Alterac and Arathi.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Nobody has any inherent right to Alterac, that is a pointless discussion.
    No one has inherent right to any land

    A kingdom has a buncha land not because of "rights" but because they control it
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

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