Why are the forsaken so hostile against alliance?

[jealouspirate]

Unprovoked? Seriously? I guess human leadership trying to evict them from their homes because they were "monsters" had nothing to do with feelings of resentment, eh?

As has been said many times in this thread, the first time the Forsaken encountered the Alliance was when they met Garithos and his troops. The Alliance made a truce with the Forsaken, which the Forsaken promptly betrayed and killed them all. The Forsaken aren't some group of poor victims of human racism.

Don't mistake the rogue undead at the Wrath Gate to be representative of the Forsaken. They were actively fighting against Sylvanas and the Forsaken; it's hard to blame the Forsaken for the actions of those fighting against them. Further still, the Forsaken quickly rendered aid to Silvermoon in the Ghostlands. Sylvanas made it very clear: she hasn't lost any love she had for her homeland. This isn't characteristic of someone who wants to kill "all living creatures."

The only reason Putress made a plague in the first place is because Sylvanas told him to make it. Putress' crime was acting out on his own and trying to seize power from Sylvanas while working with the Legion, but their ultimately goals weren't dissimilar.

[Dreknar20]

The Forsaken aren't some group of poor victims of human racism. .

Yeah because Garithos was totally one to hide his racism and distrust of anything non-human

[jealouspirate]

Yeah because Garithos was totally one to hide his racism and distrust of anything non-human

Except he allied with the Forsaken.

[Jediguy]

As has been said many times in this thread, the first time the Forsaken encountered the Alliance was when they met Garithos and his troops. The Alliance made a truce with the Forsaken, which the Forsaken promptly betrayed and killed them all. The Forsaken aren't some group of poor victims of human racism.

And why would the Forsaken turn on Garithos, hmm? Could it be that he was going to evict them all from their homes? I'm sorry, but the citizens of Lordaeron have no obligation to leave their homes and every right to defend themselves against the pompous Alliance. Call that what you will.

The only reason Putress made a plague in the first place is because Sylvanas told him to make it. Putress' crime was acting out on his own and trying to seize power from Sylvanas while working with the Legion, but their ultimately goals weren't dissimilar.

Poor logic. Simply because Putress was commissioned to make a weapon does not mean his misuse of the weapon was in line with Forsaken leadership. Again, Putress was working on his own in an effort to usurp Forsaken command; he cannot be held representative of the very leadership he sought to usurp! Like I pointed out, Sylvanas quickly rendered aid to the Blood Elves in the Ghostlands while Putress is spouting "death to the living." Two completely different philosophies.

[Surfd]

Except he allied with the Forsaken.

The Enemy of My Enemy, is still my Enemy.

Make no mistake, Garithos did not ally with the Forsaken out of any kind of love, or even general acceptance, of them. It was an alliance of pure convenience where both sides pretty much knew the other side was not to be trusted, but mutual co-operation was required to oust the Legion controlled scourge from Lordaeron. Sylvanas is many things, but she is not stupid. Garithos was about as likely to let the Forsaken leave peacefully after the Legion was dealt with as a Goblin is likely to give you free stuff, and she knew it. It ultimately came down to the fact that it was an "us or them" situation, and Sylvanas decided it was going to be "us" rather then wait for Garithos to make the first move.

Sure, you can look at it as a betrayal of the deal they made, but would that have been any different then Garithos hunting them down after he had a chance to rest and regroup in the city after they left (which you can be damned sure he would have), if he didnt just have the dwarves under his command try to shoot them all in the back with mortars as soon as they turned around to leave?.

[bohapjut]

The Enemy of My Enemy, is still my Enemy.

Make no mistake, Garithos did not ally with the Forsaken out of any kind of love, or even general acceptance, of them. It was an alliance of pure convenience

A common element with the forsaken, such as their membership in the Horde

[Sandrox]

Yeah because Garithos was totally one to hide his racism and distrust of anything non-human

He may have been a racist dick, but he at least honored the agreement. The Forsaken did not.

[Haven]

Hah< imagine if Varian helps Thrall and Vol'jin take Orgrimmar and tells them to get lost from Durotar as the green filth they are. Would that be fair?

[bohapjut]

Hah< imagine if Varian helps Thrall and Vol'jin take Orgrimmar and tells them to get lost from Durotar as the green filth they are. Would that be fair?

Yes, it would. Do I think it'll happen? Nah.

[Scummer]

How about the Frostwolves who had been living there in peace for years until the Dwarves invaded?

Except we're not talking about them we're talking about the Forsaken as the threads title would imply.
But to reply to the point anyway, it's implied that they did not know the Frostwolves were there. On top of this like some other zones both factions claim they have rights to the land. When the Dwarves first arrived they were there to simply excavate and were then slaughtered by the Frostwolves which is what caused hostilities.

Reminds me of Ashenvale, and just like there both races are at fault for starting the conflict.

The way absolute monarchies work is that all the land belongs to the nobles/royalty. Peasants and farmers don't own shit. With the king MIA, all the land goes to the prince, who is part of the Forsaken.

As I mentioned in my previous post:

"Yes... I was once Prince of the fallen kingdom of Stromgarde."
"This too failed, but my successor will have done the same."
"I am Forsaken. My old existence means nothing."

He has distanced himself from it and abdicated himself.

Lordaeron is another absolute monarchy, all the land belongs to the nobles/royalty. Peasants and farmers don't own shit. The Kingdom of Lordaeron collapsed, so the land goes to the new regime under Queen Sylvanas.

Except the Kingdom died. Sylvanas doesn't "own" any of it by any "right". Nobody "owns" Lordaeron there is the Undead faction of Lordaeron who want it and the living refugees of Lordaeron who want it. That's all there is.

Alterac and Arathi.

Except for the second time how can this be the case when it's the Forsaken that are invading them?

Arathi does not and never has belonged to the Forsaken in any sense of the word. They have one guy from there who's abdicated himself and never once proclaims sovereignty over it.
The Forsaken weren't even there before! They are the invaders in the land how on earth you could consider them anything but the aggressors is a mystery. How on earth can you not call them the aggressor?

How is Alterac (I assume we're talking Alterac Mountains and Kingdom and not the Valley) still even being listed when it never belonged to the Forsaken in life and didn't have any Alliance presence until they decided to launch a counter attack after the Forsaken bombed Soutshore?

[Haven]

Yes, it would. Do I think it'll happen? Nah.

And it would only be fair if Thrall and Vol'jin answered that with a lightning to the face. Use and discard, if the helper gets cocky.

[Arrashi]

And it would only be fair if Thrall and Vol'jin answered that with a lightning to the face. Use and discard, if the helper gets cocky.

Wouldnt two unreasonably overpowered protagonists (go'el and varian) standing against each other result in sue paradox ? I mean each and every of them always win but if they fight each other it would be impossible. Hell in undercity jaina saved us all from that but, now she's batshit insane, so we can count on that.

[Aquamonkey]

Except we're not talking about them we're talking about the Forsaken as the threads title would imply.
But to reply to the point anyway, it's implied that they did not know the Frostwolves were there. On top of this like some other zones both factions claim they have rights to the land. When the Dwarves first arrived they were there to simply excavate and were then slaughtered by the Frostwolves which is what caused hostilities.

Reminds me of Ashenvale, and just like there both races are at fault for starting the conflict.

It demonstrates the Alliance invading other people's territories. And the least militant at that. The Frostwolves were kicked out of the Horde as soon as they landed in Azeroth because they wanted nothing to do with the warmongering.

As I mentioned in my previous post:

"Yes... I was once Prince of the fallen kingdom of Stromgarde."
"This too failed, but my successor will have done the same."
"I am Forsaken. My old existence means nothing."

He has distanced himself from it and abdicated himself.

You didn't mention anything like this. But, fine. The prince doesn't count for anything.

Except the Kingdom died. Sylvanas doesn't "own" any of it by any "right". Nobody "owns" Lordaeron there is the Undead faction of Lordaeron who want it and the living refugees of Lordaeron who want it. That's all there is.

Sylvanas does own it. She holds the capital and claims all of Lordaeron's territories. If the Alliance want it, they'll have to invade... which is what they've been trying to do.

Except for the second time how can this be the case when it's the Forsaken that are invading them?

Arathi does not and never has belonged to the Forsaken in any sense of the word. They have one guy from there who's abdicated himself and never once proclaims sovereignty over it.
The Forsaken weren't even there before! They are the invaders in the land how on earth you could consider them anything but the aggressors is a mystery. How on earth can you not call them the aggressor?

The kingdom in Arathi had fallen. It's been overrun by ogres and syndicate. Technically, the Forsaken are invading random small factions whom the Alliance don't even like. How can you hold this against them as invading a human kingdom that doesn't exist?

How is Alterac (I assume we're talking Alterac Mountains and Kingdom and not the Valley) still even being listed when it never belonged to the Forsaken in life and didn't have any Alliance presence until they decided to launch a counter attack after the Forsaken bombed Soutshore?

1. I'm talking about the entire Alterac area.
2. The Alliance had invaded Alterac by attacking the Frostwolves.
3. With Alterac and Arathi, I'm talking about the Alliance planting armies next to Forsaken borders. Any nation would consider this an act of aggression. Never mind the fact that the Alliance has already violated Forsaken borders.
4. Technically, Alterac Kingdom's territories belonged to Lordaeron since Terenas was in charge of giving the land away after Lordaeron and Stromgarde invaded and deposed the king for aiding the Orcs. It was going to be awarded to Deathwing, but he was never present to accept ownership.

[Scummer]

Everything you've said ultimately boils down to the false assumption that the Alliance defending themselves via a counter attack means they're immediately the aggressors and that the Alliance are the ones in the wrong.

Every conflict the Alliance has had so far with the Forsaken has been instigated by the Forsaken.

Every piece of Alliance military action you see in Lordaeron is in response to Forsaken aggression and expansionism. It is defensive.

[Aquamonkey]

Everything you've said ultimately boils down to the false assumption that the Alliance defending themselves via a counter attack means they're immediately the aggressors and that the Alliance are the ones in the wrong.

Every conflict the Alliance has had so far with the Forsaken has been instigated by the Forsaken.

Every piece of Alliance military action you see in Lordaeron is in response to Forsaken aggression and expansionism. It is defensive.

So the Alliance is defending lands they have no stake in, by invading other nations far from their borders. Sounds like US foreign policy.

Lordaeron's government was dismantled from within. Claiming the Alliance was asked by refugees doesn't count. Those refugees do not represent any kind of recognized nation.

You might have a point when it comes to Arathi if the king ever comes back and asks the Alliance to help him retake Stromgarde.

[gcsmith]

It demonstrates the Alliance invading other people's territories. And the least militant at that. The Frostwolves were kicked out of the Horde as soon as they landed in Azeroth because they wanted nothing to do with the warmongering.


You didn't mention anything like this. But, fine. The prince doesn't count for anything.


Sylvanas does own it. She holds the capital and claims all of Lordaeron's territories. If the Alliance want it, they'll have to invade... which is what they've been trying to do.


The kingdom in Arathi had fallen. It's been overrun by ogres and syndicate. Technically, the Forsaken are invading random small factions whom the Alliance don't even like. How can you hold this against them as invading a human kingdom that doesn't exist?


1. I'm talking about the entire Alterac area.
2. The Alliance had invaded Alterac by attacking the Frostwolves.
3. With Alterac and Arathi, I'm talking about the Alliance planting armies next to Forsaken borders. Any nation would consider this an act of aggression. Never mind the fact that the Alliance has already violated Forsaken borders.
4. Technically, Alterac Kingdom's territories belonged to Lordaeron since Terenas was in charge of giving the land away after Lordaeron and Stromgarde invaded and deposed the king for aiding the Orcs. It was going to be awarded to Deathwing, but he was never present to accept ownership.

Actually, no land on Azeroth can technically be claimed by Orcs by "Right" after all they are Alien invaders.

[bohapjut]

Actually, no land on Azeroth can technically be claimed by Orcs by "Right" after all they are Alien invaders.

No land in the Eastern Kingdoms can be claimed by Humans, Dwarves, or Forsaken by "Right" after all they are titan constructs from Northrend.

[Rendia]

It is a mutual thing. In fact, I think if the Allies were to accept the Forsaken more, they would find them just fine. Aside from the having to kill people to raise them thing. Perhaps when/if Forsaken got to the point where only people who were WILLING to become Forsaken prior to dying were transformed, the world itself would be a better place. Would kinda suck for the story though.

[Lumineus]

Not humans. The Alliance. Specifically, the Grand Alliance centered around Stormwind. They have no legitimate claims to any of the Lordaeron, Alterac, or Arathi territories and are foreign invaders.

While some of the satellite areas around the old Lordaeron kingdom are technically up for grabs, the Alliance is antagonizing the Forsaken by taking aggressive actions so close to their territory. Just like how the US didn't take too kindly to the USSR putting nukes in Cuba.

Lothar was heir to the Arathi bloodline. He probably passed on that birthright to Varian as his adopted son. Alterac was ruled by Deathwing's human guise. When he "died" his daughter was absorbed into Stormwind nobility, presumably along with any claim to the territory.

[Aquamonkey]

Lothar was heir to the Arathi bloodline. He probably passed on that birthright to Varian as his adopted son. Alterac was ruled by Deathwing's human guise. When he "died" his daughter was absorbed into Stormwind nobility, presumably along with any claim to the territory.

Arathi's ownership doesn't follow that bloodline. The Arathor Kingdom doesn't exist anymore. Its former territory in Arathi was officially recognized to belong to the Kingdom of Stromgarde.

Deathwing was never present to receive ownership of the Alterac territories from Terenas, having fled to Outland at the time. The territory still belonged to Lordaeron.

If Calia ever showed up again and joined the Alliance, they'd have a legitimate claim to Lordaeron's territories. Until then, the Alliance has no legitimate claim to Lordaeron's territories. Lordaeron's government was dismantled from within. Claiming the Alliance was asked by refugees doesn't count. Those refugees do not represent any kind of recognized nation.