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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Hah< imagine if Varian helps Thrall and Vol'jin take Orgrimmar and tells them to get lost from Durotar as the green filth they are. Would that be fair?
    Yes, it would. Do I think it'll happen? Nah.

  2. #302
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    How about the Frostwolves who had been living there in peace for years until the Dwarves invaded?
    Except we're not talking about them we're talking about the Forsaken as the threads title would imply.
    But to reply to the point anyway, it's implied that they did not know the Frostwolves were there. On top of this like some other zones both factions claim they have rights to the land. When the Dwarves first arrived they were there to simply excavate and were then slaughtered by the Frostwolves which is what caused hostilities.

    Reminds me of Ashenvale, and just like there both races are at fault for starting the conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The way absolute monarchies work is that all the land belongs to the nobles/royalty. Peasants and farmers don't own shit. With the king MIA, all the land goes to the prince, who is part of the Forsaken.
    As I mentioned in my previous post:

    "Yes... I was once Prince of the fallen kingdom of Stromgarde."
    "This too failed, but my successor will have done the same."
    "I am Forsaken. My old existence means nothing."


    He has distanced himself from it and abdicated himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Lordaeron is another absolute monarchy, all the land belongs to the nobles/royalty. Peasants and farmers don't own shit. The Kingdom of Lordaeron collapsed, so the land goes to the new regime under Queen Sylvanas.
    Except the Kingdom died. Sylvanas doesn't "own" any of it by any "right". Nobody "owns" Lordaeron there is the Undead faction of Lordaeron who want it and the living refugees of Lordaeron who want it. That's all there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Alterac and Arathi.
    Except for the second time how can this be the case when it's the Forsaken that are invading them?

    Arathi does not and never has belonged to the Forsaken in any sense of the word. They have one guy from there who's abdicated himself and never once proclaims sovereignty over it.
    The Forsaken weren't even there before! They are the invaders in the land how on earth you could consider them anything but the aggressors is a mystery. How on earth can you not call them the aggressor?

    How is Alterac (I assume we're talking Alterac Mountains and Kingdom and not the Valley) still even being listed when it never belonged to the Forsaken in life and didn't have any Alliance presence until they decided to launch a counter attack after the Forsaken bombed Soutshore?
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-04-21 at 08:26 AM.

  3. #303
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezarus View Post
    Yes, it would. Do I think it'll happen? Nah.
    And it would only be fair if Thrall and Vol'jin answered that with a lightning to the face. Use and discard, if the helper gets cocky.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  4. #304
    I am Murloc! Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    And it would only be fair if Thrall and Vol'jin answered that with a lightning to the face. Use and discard, if the helper gets cocky.
    Wouldnt two unreasonably overpowered protagonists (go'el and varian) standing against each other result in sue paradox ? I mean each and every of them always win but if they fight each other it would be impossible. Hell in undercity jaina saved us all from that but, now she's batshit insane, so we can count on that.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Except we're not talking about them we're talking about the Forsaken as the threads title would imply.
    But to reply to the point anyway, it's implied that they did not know the Frostwolves were there. On top of this like some other zones both factions claim they have rights to the land. When the Dwarves first arrived they were there to simply excavate and were then slaughtered by the Frostwolves which is what caused hostilities.

    Reminds me of Ashenvale, and just like there both races are at fault for starting the conflict.
    It demonstrates the Alliance invading other people's territories. And the least militant at that. The Frostwolves were kicked out of the Horde as soon as they landed in Azeroth because they wanted nothing to do with the warmongering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    As I mentioned in my previous post:

    "Yes... I was once Prince of the fallen kingdom of Stromgarde."
    "This too failed, but my successor will have done the same."
    "I am Forsaken. My old existence means nothing."


    He has distanced himself from it and abdicated himself.
    You didn't mention anything like this. But, fine. The prince doesn't count for anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Except the Kingdom died. Sylvanas doesn't "own" any of it by any "right". Nobody "owns" Lordaeron there is the Undead faction of Lordaeron who want it and the living refugees of Lordaeron who want it. That's all there is.
    Sylvanas does own it. She holds the capital and claims all of Lordaeron's territories. If the Alliance want it, they'll have to invade... which is what they've been trying to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Except for the second time how can this be the case when it's the Forsaken that are invading them?

    Arathi does not and never has belonged to the Forsaken in any sense of the word. They have one guy from there who's abdicated himself and never once proclaims sovereignty over it.
    The Forsaken weren't even there before! They are the invaders in the land how on earth you could consider them anything but the aggressors is a mystery. How on earth can you not call them the aggressor?
    The kingdom in Arathi had fallen. It's been overrun by ogres and syndicate. Technically, the Forsaken are invading random small factions whom the Alliance don't even like. How can you hold this against them as invading a human kingdom that doesn't exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    How is Alterac (I assume we're talking Alterac Mountains and Kingdom and not the Valley) still even being listed when it never belonged to the Forsaken in life and didn't have any Alliance presence until they decided to launch a counter attack after the Forsaken bombed Soutshore?
    1. I'm talking about the entire Alterac area.
    2. The Alliance had invaded Alterac by attacking the Frostwolves.
    3. With Alterac and Arathi, I'm talking about the Alliance planting armies next to Forsaken borders. Any nation would consider this an act of aggression. Never mind the fact that the Alliance has already violated Forsaken borders.
    4. Technically, Alterac Kingdom's territories belonged to Lordaeron since Terenas was in charge of giving the land away after Lordaeron and Stromgarde invaded and deposed the king for aiding the Orcs. It was going to be awarded to Deathwing, but he was never present to accept ownership.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-04-21 at 07:24 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  6. #306
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Everything you've said ultimately boils down to the false assumption that the Alliance defending themselves via a counter attack means they're immediately the aggressors and that the Alliance are the ones in the wrong.

    Every conflict the Alliance has had so far with the Forsaken has been instigated by the Forsaken.

    Every piece of Alliance military action you see in Lordaeron is in response to Forsaken aggression and expansionism. It is defensive.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-04-21 at 08:28 PM.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Everything you've said ultimately boils down to the false assumption that the Alliance defending themselves via a counter attack means they're immediately the aggressors and that the Alliance are the ones in the wrong.

    Every conflict the Alliance has had so far with the Forsaken has been instigated by the Forsaken.

    Every piece of Alliance military action you see in Lordaeron is in response to Forsaken aggression and expansionism. It is defensive.
    So the Alliance is defending lands they have no stake in, by invading other nations far from their borders. Sounds like US foreign policy.

    Lordaeron's government was dismantled from within. Claiming the Alliance was asked by refugees doesn't count. Those refugees do not represent any kind of recognized nation.

    You might have a point when it comes to Arathi if the king ever comes back and asks the Alliance to help him retake Stromgarde.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-04-21 at 11:19 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It demonstrates the Alliance invading other people's territories. And the least militant at that. The Frostwolves were kicked out of the Horde as soon as they landed in Azeroth because they wanted nothing to do with the warmongering.


    You didn't mention anything like this. But, fine. The prince doesn't count for anything.


    Sylvanas does own it. She holds the capital and claims all of Lordaeron's territories. If the Alliance want it, they'll have to invade... which is what they've been trying to do.


    The kingdom in Arathi had fallen. It's been overrun by ogres and syndicate. Technically, the Forsaken are invading random small factions whom the Alliance don't even like. How can you hold this against them as invading a human kingdom that doesn't exist?


    1. I'm talking about the entire Alterac area.
    2. The Alliance had invaded Alterac by attacking the Frostwolves.
    3. With Alterac and Arathi, I'm talking about the Alliance planting armies next to Forsaken borders. Any nation would consider this an act of aggression. Never mind the fact that the Alliance has already violated Forsaken borders.
    4. Technically, Alterac Kingdom's territories belonged to Lordaeron since Terenas was in charge of giving the land away after Lordaeron and Stromgarde invaded and deposed the king for aiding the Orcs. It was going to be awarded to Deathwing, but he was never present to accept ownership.
    Actually, no land on Azeroth can technically be claimed by Orcs by "Right" after all they are Alien invaders.
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  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Actually, no land on Azeroth can technically be claimed by Orcs by "Right" after all they are Alien invaders.
    No land in the Eastern Kingdoms can be claimed by Humans, Dwarves, or Forsaken by "Right" after all they are titan constructs from Northrend.

  10. #310
    Bloodsail Admiral Rendia's Avatar
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    It is a mutual thing. In fact, I think if the Allies were to accept the Forsaken more, they would find them just fine. Aside from the having to kill people to raise them thing. Perhaps when/if Forsaken got to the point where only people who were WILLING to become Forsaken prior to dying were transformed, the world itself would be a better place. Would kinda suck for the story though.
    "There is no teacher but the enemy. No one but the enemy will tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you how to destroy and conquer. Only the enemy shows you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you where he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you." -Mazer Rackham - Ender's Game Orson Scott Card

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Not humans. The Alliance. Specifically, the Grand Alliance centered around Stormwind. They have no legitimate claims to any of the Lordaeron, Alterac, or Arathi territories and are foreign invaders.

    While some of the satellite areas around the old Lordaeron kingdom are technically up for grabs, the Alliance is antagonizing the Forsaken by taking aggressive actions so close to their territory. Just like how the US didn't take too kindly to the USSR putting nukes in Cuba.
    Lothar was heir to the Arathi bloodline. He probably passed on that birthright to Varian as his adopted son. Alterac was ruled by Deathwing's human guise. When he "died" his daughter was absorbed into Stormwind nobility, presumably along with any claim to the territory.
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    Lothar was heir to the Arathi bloodline. He probably passed on that birthright to Varian as his adopted son. Alterac was ruled by Deathwing's human guise. When he "died" his daughter was absorbed into Stormwind nobility, presumably along with any claim to the territory.
    Arathi's ownership doesn't follow that bloodline. The Arathor Kingdom doesn't exist anymore. Its former territory in Arathi was officially recognized to belong to the Kingdom of Stromgarde.

    Deathwing was never present to receive ownership of the Alterac territories from Terenas, having fled to Outland at the time. The territory still belonged to Lordaeron.

    If Calia ever showed up again and joined the Alliance, they'd have a legitimate claim to Lordaeron's territories. Until then, the Alliance has no legitimate claim to Lordaeron's territories. Lordaeron's government was dismantled from within. Claiming the Alliance was asked by refugees doesn't count. Those refugees do not represent any kind of recognized nation.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  13. #313
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Wouldnt two unreasonably overpowered protagonists (go'el and varian) standing against each other result in sue paradox ? I mean each and every of them always win but if they fight each other it would be impossible. Hell in undercity jaina saved us all from that but, now she's batshit insane, so we can count on that.
    Attention on lower right side:

    'nuff said.
    Last edited by Haven; 2013-04-24 at 02:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  14. #314
    So, Thrall will see the damage that their battle is inflicting on the Horde civilians, and surrenders to Varian, then gets assassinated by a mind-controlled Aggra as part of a plot by the Twilight's Hammer, except he isn't really dead but in a state of suspended animation... meanwhile, Vol'jin steals back the Doomhammer from SI:7 and becomes the new Warchief?
    Last edited by Lumineus; 2013-04-22 at 04:11 AM.
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezarus View Post
    No land in the Eastern Kingdoms can be claimed by Humans, Dwarves, or Forsaken by "Right" after all they are titan constructs from Northrend.
    Pretty much what I say
    When the issue of the Forsaken comes up people always talk about "right to the land"

    Hate to break it to you folks, but there is no such thing. Rights are an imaginary idea, like Santa Claus. There is no mystical power that says you have the rights to a land. The only "right" is the right of power and ownership.

    Plus all nations have taken their lands from other people, and those people from other peeople, its not like these races have lived in the same spot since the beginning of time.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Wouldnt two unreasonably overpowered protagonists (go'el and varian) standing against each other result in sue paradox ? I mean each and every of them always win but if they fight each other it would be impossible. Hell in undercity jaina saved us all from that but, now she's batshit insane, so we can count on that.
    pretty much this

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