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  1. #201
    What do Paladins want? They're currently the best healers and Blizzard are nerfing them like they nerfed MWs when they were the best healers, and Disc Priests (although those nerfs didn't really hit all of the balance issues with the spec). The Revival, Tranq and DH changes were made, in part to help balance healing, but also in part to help balance raid format design and balance.

    The Mastery nerf really wasn't surprising, if anyone is surprised at it then they're deluded. A Paladin, albeit in normal content mostly, can have their Mastery absorbs up to as much as 50%~ of their overall healing. Absurd is the only word for that.

  2. #202
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    What do Paladins want? They're currently the best healers and Blizzard are nerfing them like they nerfed MWs when they were the best healers, and Disc Priests (although those nerfs didn't really hit all of the balance issues with the spec). The Revival, Tranq and DH changes were made, in part to help balance healing, but also in part to help balance raid format design and balance.

    The Mastery nerf really wasn't surprising, if anyone is surprised at it then they're deluded. A Paladin, albeit in normal content mostly, can have their Mastery absorbs up to as much as 50%~ of their overall healing. Absurd is the only word for that.
    I don't know what paladin logs you've been looking at 50% IH, I think you should get a bit more realistic. A value of 35% is a bit better, and realistically with mastery hovering around 30-40% and the fact it interacts with all of our spells bar beacon what else would you expect. With the way it works its going to appear as our top used spell.

    No one around here moaning about the mastery change, a lot probably expected it with the way it was starting to scale. Also the changes to the raid CD's were more than likely made not to balance healing but to make them useful in a 25man scene, since in 10man the changes have no effect whatsoever.

  3. #203
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    What do Paladins want? They're currently the best healers and Blizzard are nerfing them like they nerfed MWs when they were the best healers, and Disc Priests (although those nerfs didn't really hit all of the balance issues with the spec). The Revival, Tranq and DH changes were made, in part to help balance healing, but also in part to help balance raid format design and balance.

    The Mastery nerf really wasn't surprising, if anyone is surprised at it then they're deluded. A Paladin, albeit in normal content mostly, can have their Mastery absorbs up to as much as 50%~ of their overall healing. Absurd is the only word for that.
    Are paladins dominating every fight on WoL like Mistweavers and Disc Priests were when they got nerfed? No they aren't.

    I'm not surprised there are nerfs to paladins, but to compare current paladins to pre-nerf Mistweavers and Disc priests is ignorant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    I don't know what paladin logs you've been looking at 50% IH, I think you should get a bit more realistic. A value of 35% is a bit better, and realistically with mastery hovering around 30-40% and the fact it interacts with all of our spells bar beacon what else would you expect. With the way it works its going to appear as our top used spell.

    No one around here moaning about the mastery change, a lot probably expected it with the way it was starting to scale. Also the changes to the raid CD's were more than likely made not to balance healing but to make them useful in a 25man scene, since in 10man the changes have no effect whatsoever.

    No they are right kind of right on that point. In normal mode content a raid group outgears, a paladin can get 50%+ of their healing as mastery. It happened to me last night. In actual progression content, 35-40% is more accurate. So basically they are saying the mastery should be nerfed because of geared paladin healers in farm content where damage is light enough for absorbs to cover the majority of it.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-04-24 at 01:44 PM.

  4. #204
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    No they are right kind of right on that point. In normal mode content a raid group outgears, a paladin can get 50%+ of their healing as mastery. It happened to me last night. In actual progression content, 35-40% is more accurate. So basically they are saying the mastery should be nerfed because of geared paladin healers in farm content where damage is light enough for absorbs to cover the majority of it.
    Well farm content isn't what you want to gauge a healers ability from :P, since the fight is very trivial a lot of the healing with be over healing whereas mastery has a very small overheal %. But if that is a persons reasoning, nerf this class because its doing too well in a fight we AFK and kill then its kind of retarded in all honesty.

  5. #205
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    Well farm content isn't what you want to gauge a healers ability from :P, since the fight is very trivial a lot of the healing with be over healing whereas mastery has a very small overheal %. But if that is a persons reasoning, nerf this class because its doing too well in a fight we AFK and kill then its kind of retarded in all honesty.

    I agree but unfortunately it seems like a large number of the wow community believes classes should be balanced around this.

  6. #206
    How is asking to be allowed to actually heal retarded? It's not good game design to encourage overhealing, and it's not fun to stand there like a dickhead because there's nothing to heal.
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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    How is asking to be allowed to actually heal retarded? It's not good game design to encourage overhealing, and it's not fun to stand there like a dickhead because there's nothing to heal.
    Again with the moaning about not being able to heal. Like someone else has said in this thread, if you are actually doing nothing at all then you are over healing the fight. Also like I said, if you are moaning about your ability to not be able to heal whilst healing with 2 paladin's stick one Disc priest into that and you will see just how subtle a paladin is compared to a skilled Disc priest.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    How is asking to be allowed to actually heal retarded? It's not good game design to encourage overhealing, and it's not fun to stand there like a dickhead because there's nothing to heal.
    Why are you so mad? You seem to be competing all fine against your guilds holy paladin how can you honestly say there is nothing to heal when you seem to come second on most of the aoe healing fights? Add in the monk buff and you would probably be number one on the meter. There is no reason at all to nerf paladin mastery when they are already taking away T14 from us.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r.../?s=830&e=1445
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8996&e=9552

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    How is asking to be allowed to actually heal retarded? It's not good game design to encourage overhealing, and it's not fun to stand there like a dickhead because there's nothing to heal.
    Then switch to laser chicken for that fight instead of healing 10 man with 3 healers

  10. #210
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Then switch to laser chicken for that fight instead of healing 10 man with 3 healers
    They play a monk is a 25m guild...

    But as Pacer said, Reglitch is overreacting. He has posted he can't compete with his guilds' holy pallies when the logs say otherwise. He is pretty much crying that about not topping the meter 100% of the time including low damage phases.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-04-24 at 04:36 PM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Are paladins dominating every fight on WoL like Mistweavers and Disc Priests were when they got nerfed? No they aren't.

    I'm not surprised there are nerfs to paladins, but to compare current paladins to pre-nerf Mistweavers and Disc priests is ignorant.




    No they are right kind of right on that point. In normal mode content a raid group outgears, a paladin can get 50%+ of their healing as mastery. It happened to me last night. In actual progression content, 35-40% is more accurate. So basically they are saying the mastery should be nerfed because of geared paladin healers in farm content where damage is light enough for absorbs to cover the majority of it.
    I've posted on this before.
    While we are strong, we are not destroying the top heals in world of logs.
    If you look at 25m WoL normal(http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../#tab-25Normal), it's dominated by discs, MW, then pallies (in that order).
    If you look at 25m WoL HEROIC (http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../#tab-25Heroic) it's balanced in the same order.
    I don't really understand the double nerf to me (the tier 14 nerf and the mastery).
    Enjoy being good because come 5.3 I say that we will not be in a good spot and I'm guessing...we'll be delegated to tank healing.
    IMHO they need to either buff our T15 (which is the worst 2 and 4 piece out of all the healing classes) or they need to buff daybreak. I would PRAY that they allow daybreak to go to the beacon similar to holy radiance (15% to beacon).

    Also, take into effect pvp healing. We're going to get a nerf in healing from battle fatigue on top of our mastery nerf...this is when we're already in a very bad spot for 3s.

  12. #212
    Wait wait wait. So you guys think it's balanced for holy paladins, a class with an extremely powerful mix of smart heals, absorbs, and single target heal bombs, to be able to do equivalent healing throughput as a class who only has the ability to blanket heal the raid?

    You're quite literally insane.

    Further, holy paladins have some of the strongest utility of all the healers, only one who could be better are rsham (and they pay heavily for their utility).

    Next, let's include the damage that devotion aura prevents to the raid, now you're FAR above MW on healing meters.

    How anyone could say holy paladin's aren't the strongest healer in the current tier by a huge margin blows my mind. With CD's they can >almost< keep up in raw throughput with blanket healers using our CD's (MW) while the majority of their healing is smart/absorb/single target bombs. Whether the current nerfs in 5.3 are enough or too much is hard to tell, but the increase in stats will likely mean they're more able to holy radiance spam better than before and I doubt the move from t14 4pc-> t15 heroic 4pc will be that big of a nerf.

    The best part is even if your AoE healing gets nerfed, you'll still almost guaranteed be very powerful because your tank healing blows everyone else's out of the water, and every fight needs tank healers.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    They play a monk is a 25m guild...

    But as Pacer said, Reglitch is overreacting. He has posted he can't compete with his guilds' holy pallies when the logs say otherwise. He is pretty much crying that about not topping the meter 100% of the time including low damage phases.
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    I cannot compete with either of them until damage starts getting past their shields.
    I just don't see how you could honestly say you think it's fine that other healers have nothing to do at some points because your mastery is so strong. Not that it matters anyway, it seems blizzard have finally come to their senses for 5.3 and are letting pure HPS healers actually be the best at pure HPS.
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  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    . Not that it matters anyway, it seems blizzard have finally come to their senses for 5.3 and are letting pure HPS healers actually be the best at pure HPS.
    Wait...what?
    There are no pure HPS healers unless you're talking about dps healing (like heart of the wild tranqs...but guess what...that got buffed too...)

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Wait wait wait. So you guys think it's balanced for holy paladins, a class with an extremely powerful mix of smart heals, absorbs, and single target heal bombs, to be able to do equivalent healing throughput as a class who only has the ability to blanket heal the raid?
    What smart heals? (protip we only have one and its worse than EF) and what single target heal bombs?

    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Whether the current nerfs in 5.3 are enough or too much is hard to tell, but the increase in stats will likely mean they're more able to holy radiance spam better than before and I doubt the move from t14 4pc-> t15 heroic 4pc will be that big of a nerf.
    Your very first statement showed that you have no clue about holy paladins and like the first one you are wrong about this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    The best part is even if your AoE healing gets nerfed, you'll still almost guaranteed be very powerful because your tank healing blows everyone else's out of the water, and every fight needs tank healers.
    Insanely strong tank healers? By that I sure hope you are talking about beacon of light, which first of all doesnt make us good tank healers it makes us good healers to put on the raid so we also heal the tank at the same time. Looking at yesterdays logs a flash heal (priest) did on avg 65k healing (non crit) and a flash of light (paladin) did on average 50k, add in the mastery and the healing is litterally the same. A shamans Healing Surge hits for 80k and this translates to all single target heals, if you want to stick someone on a tank you are better off using someone else than a paladin.
    Last edited by Pacer; 2013-04-24 at 05:34 PM.

  16. #216
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Wait wait wait. So you guys think it's balanced for holy paladins, a class with an extremely powerful mix of smart heals, absorbs, and single target heal bombs, to be able to do equivalent healing throughput as a class who only has the ability to blanket heal the raid?

    You're quite literally insane.

    Further, holy paladins have some of the strongest utility of all the healers, only one who could be better are rsham (and they pay heavily for their utility).

    Next, let's include the damage that devotion aura prevents to the raid, now you're FAR above MW on healing meters.

    How anyone could say holy paladin's aren't the strongest healer in the current tier by a huge margin blows my mind. With CD's they can >almost< keep up in raw throughput with blanket healers using our CD's (MW) while the majority of their healing is smart/absorb/single target bombs. Whether the current nerfs in 5.3 are enough or too much is hard to tell, but the increase in stats will likely mean they're more able to holy radiance spam better than before and I doubt the move from t14 4pc-> t15 heroic 4pc will be that big of a nerf.

    The best part is even if your AoE healing gets nerfed, you'll still almost guaranteed be very powerful because your tank healing blows everyone else's out of the water, and every fight needs tank healers.

    I love how you conveniently leave out that devo is useless on any damage that isn't magic damage. So consider fights like Horridon, Ji-Kun, Tortos where the huge raid spikes are physical; we lack a raid cooldown to deal with those, while the big healing cooldowns for other classes still work.

    Stating that a paladin are FAR over the healing of Monks is false. If you were a druid or shaman I would sympathize, but monks are completely fine this tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    I just don't see how you could honestly say you think it's fine that other healers have nothing to do at some points because your mastery is so strong. Not that it matters anyway, it seems blizzard have finally come to their senses for 5.3 and are letting pure HPS healers actually be the best at pure HPS.

    You have nothing to do, you are overhealing the content. Period. Asking for healer balance based on farm content you are overhealing makes no sense.

    And you always have something to do. We are putting mastery on the raid. You are getting Renewing mist on as many people as possible so you can uplift the high damage phases. Not a hard concept. We are both preparing for those high damage phases.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-04-24 at 05:53 PM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    I just don't see how you could honestly say you think it's fine that other healers have nothing to do at some points because your mastery is so strong. Not that it matters anyway, it seems blizzard have finally come to their senses for 5.3 and are letting pure HPS healers actually be the best at pure HPS.
    Honestly im all fine with our mastery being nerfed because it is too big a part of our total healing. But at the same time nerfing T14 and in some situations also daybreak is going to hurt our healing a lot. Our heals need a 5-10% healing increase with all these nerfs.

  18. #218
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    How is asking to be allowed to actually heal retarded? It's not good game design to encourage overhealing, and it's not fun to stand there like a dickhead because there's nothing to heal.
    Which is why MW monks top a lot of WoL logs. Makes sense... oh wait, it doesn't.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    They play a monk is a 25m guild...

    But as Pacer said, Reglitch is overreacting. He has posted he can't compete with his guilds' holy pallies when the logs say otherwise. He is pretty much crying that about not topping the meter 100% of the time including low damage phases.
    Sorry, all the tears just meld into one in this thread, its hard to remember whats what after a while

  20. #220
    Our spells are the highest mana costing spells in game.
    There are two things helping us with this (well 3 atm):
    1. Holy Power spells, which are free
    2. Mastery absorbs
    3. T14 10% mana reduction on Holy Radiance
    I guess the new meta gem as well...so 4.
    Two of those are sorta nerfed. Once T14 gets nerfed, most will switch to T15. Now, most view mastery as OP. I myself don't see this. I gem pure spirit because I need it for progression (we're only 8/12, 25m HM), and I go almost dry on mana by the end of a fight. If that mastery only gives me 30-35% healing, how is this too strong? I understand that other healers are having issues getting their #s up because the absorbs are taking over.
    Why not do this: Make absorbs a hot absorb.
    I know it sounds crazy: But allow 50% to absorb off the bat, then have it work like a backwards rejuv where the absorb % is decreased over time.
    Just saying - that's one way to help the other class QQ on absorbs. Just a thought.

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