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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    The same argument was used by Disc Priests and they still got nerfed.
    I'm not using it as an argument against being nerfed, I'm using it as an argument against people taking extreme cases of Mastery 'healing' and treating them as the norm

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I'm not using it as an argument against being nerfed, I'm using it as an argument against people taking extreme cases of Mastery 'healing' and treating them as the norm
    It is the norm...

    Rank 1 HP on Jinrohk HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...995&e=1250#Kmy - 49.5% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Horridon HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...холишок - 33.7% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Council HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...231#Holypallie - 32.4% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Megaera HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=8632#Афиа - 36.3% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Ji-kun HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...13&e=11418#Kmy - 39.8% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Durumu HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...9396#小辣辣 - 34.2% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Primordius HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...916&e=5340#Kmy - 38.9% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Dark Animus HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...6&e=5699#Pacer - 28.2% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Iron Qon HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...833#Holypallie - 34.6% healing done with Mastery

    If you want to consider 35-40%~ of healing done with Mastery as being "normal" and "balanced" be my guest but I think anything which does 35-40%~ of your healing and requires 0 input from the user is totally ridiculous and absurd. Yes, this goes for Divine Aegis, Atonement, Renewing Mists, Rejuvenation, HST, Healing Rain and Holy Radiance.

  3. #243
    I honestly don't get this. 35-40% from mastery isn't just: we have mastery, so we get 35-40% heals.
    We have to manage our mana (MUCH more complicated than any other healing class), and we have to use smart heals.
    Granted during aoe phases - yes, its a bit much...but people think that since we have mastery then our heals are just, lul - aoe heal everything..
    Go ahead and try that on heroic progression bosses...see how your mana fares...

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Rank 1 HP on Jinrohk HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...995&e=1250#Kmy - 49.5% healing done with Mastery
    So what, they said it only happen in farm content, and you link wol of farm content, the pal is just geared enough to over heal on Jin rokh fight (55% overheal). There is nothing to heal against Jinrokh, so yeah just over heal all the fight then when some damage happen, its goin on the shield.

    And who the fuck said Mastery nerf wasnt justified ? They only said, there is too many nerf and nothing to compensate.

  5. #245
    Also, there's an insanely stupid mastery buff on Jinrokh...just silly arguments here

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    I think anything which does 35-40%~ of your healing and requires 0 input from the user is totally ridiculous and absurd.
    Great argument, it's clear you understand the mechanics behind paladin healing very well.

  7. #247
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    It is the norm...

    Rank 1 HP on Jinrohk HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...995&e=1250#Kmy - 49.5% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Horridon HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...холишок - 33.7% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Council HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...231#Holypallie - 32.4% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Megaera HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=8632#Афиа - 36.3% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Ji-kun HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...13&e=11418#Kmy - 39.8% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Durumu HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...9396#小辣辣 - 34.2% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Primordius HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...916&e=5340#Kmy - 38.9% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Dark Animus HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...6&e=5699#Pacer - 28.2% healing done with Mastery
    Rank 1 HP on Iron Qon HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...833#Holypallie - 34.6% healing done with Mastery

    If you want to consider 35-40%~ of healing done with Mastery as being "normal" and "balanced" be my guest but I think anything which does 35-40%~ of your healing and requires 0 input from the user is totally ridiculous and absurd. Yes, this goes for Divine Aegis, Atonement, Renewing Mists, Rejuvenation, HST, Healing Rain and Holy Radiance.
    Well don't get me wrong. I think the nerfs we get are absolutely appropriate but we dont get the heal from mastery from 0 input. You know that our mastery isnt an aura that automatically smart heals every one around us right? We get it from using our spells correctly and proactively. Your argument is like saying crit is op because it makes your heals so much stronger and you are casting them anyway... The differences here are that our mastery is shown as a seperate source of healing in recount whereas crit heals are not and that our mastery is an absorb effect instead of raw healing. I really don't get why this pisses of so many people. I agree that our healing is too high atm compared to other healers but I don't get why the source of our healing is such a problem.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Great argument, it's clear you understand the mechanics behind paladin healing very well.
    It must be hard having a mastery work 100% of the time from 100% of the heals you use. If only MWs had such luxuries.

  9. #249
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    It must be hard having a mastery work 100% of the time from 100% of the heals you use. If only MWs had such luxuries.
    Yet it doesn't work with Beacon of Light, which is usually 10% of our healing and that overheals 50%. Woops there goes your 100% statement.

    EDIT: And as a side note, don't people find it odd that our mastery has remained relatively the same bar a small amount of scaling changes since Cata. Yet now because of some 4-set allowing more EF's people go absolutely mental about it?. Everyone here has accepted the nerf, they aren't trying to argue the nerf is wrong but you seem hell bent on arguing like they are anyway.
    Last edited by Kyuuseishu; 2013-04-25 at 11:07 AM.

  10. #250
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    It must be hard having a mastery work 100% of the time from 100% of the heals you use. If only MWs had such luxuries.
    Mistweavers are one of the top healers this tier. And if you actually look at raidbots(set to all parses to see the average) are listed above paladins, so quit crying because you can't play your class.

    The amount of mistweavers in here crying is absurd. You guys have no issues and are not hurting in current content. Looks like you're still mad about your 5.1 nerfs and are calling for everyone you can to be overnerfed. Paladins do not compare to 5.0 mistweavers or 5.1 disc priests. They are not dominating the logs like both of those classes did. And don't use the excuse that you are in here for druid and shaman's sake, because your instant raid heals are hurting them just as much as the absorbs. Saying mistweavers need any sort of boost is a laugh.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    While I agree with a lot you say in your post, you have the option to at least spec Disc, we Holy paladins have no such option. While I personally saw this Mastery nerf coming from miles away I don't think it's fair for you to come in here and state how bad Holy Priests have it as you have a more than viable other option.
    Holy priests aren't bad, they weren't even bad prior to the disc changes.., there's just far to many playing a healing class they don't have the slightest idea on how to play, reading a guide and thinking that's it, most guides cater to the persons play-style who wrote the damn thing, and can't be directly translated to someone else.

    As far as disc goes (been playing one myself for nearly 2 years now after dropping it at lk hc), the nerf to atonement will have a bigger impact then people realise, despite some of the of the 20% reduction being shifted into penance heal portion.
    I wouldn't say any healer is ridiculously ahead at the moment, the only reason paladins seem strong is because the "good" ones cheese it with spreading EF to keep IH uptime near enough constant on as many as possible.
    Very similar to how disc used to use SS before inc dmg.

    Tbh I wish they'd remove SS from disc (while keeping the current model of mastery / Da), and IH from paladins, at the moment those two are pillars in any strong healing setup, and also rework shaman mastery to grant a direct boost to their healing, or at least have more high-consistent damage so their current one isn't so weak.
    Last edited by Banzhe; 2013-04-25 at 11:15 AM.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    It is the norm...

    Rank 1 HP on Dark Animus HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...6&e=5699#Pacer - 28.2% healing done with Mastery
    Fun fact, I have almost 40% mastery. Now why do you think my mastery healing is so low on heroic DA? Because the damage is constant.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Mistweavers are one of the top healers this tier. And if you actually look at raidbots(set to all parses to see the average) are listed above paladins, so quit crying because you can't play your class.

    The amount of mistweavers in here crying is absurd. You guys have no issues and are not hurting in current content. Looks like you're still mad about your 5.1 nerfs and are calling for everyone you can to be overnerfed. Paladins do not compare to 5.0 mistweavers or 5.1 disc priests. They are not dominating the logs like both of those classes did. And don't use the excuse that you are in here for druid and shaman's sake, because your instant raid heals are hurting them just as much as the absorbs. Saying mistweavers need any sort of boost is a laugh.
    A) I didn't say MWs need a boost. In fact they need a nerf somewhere. Mana Tea perhaps? The amount of spirit you need as a MW regions in the 5-6k~ with the legendary meta, it's pretty ridiculous.

    B) Just because Paladins are not dominating has no relevance to an issue regarding their Mastery. Their Mastery is too strong, that is a fact and it needs to be nerfed (and it is so it seems Blizzard agrees).

    C) I agree with Paladins are not in the state of 5.0 MWs or 5.1 Discs, but see B.

    As I said, I think anything which can do 30-40%~ of your healing and requires basically 0 input (Illuminated Healing is not thought based, it's just an effect that happens when you use spells) needs to be nerfed. Renewing Mists is often 20-30% of a MWs healing, with Uplift being a further 20-40%. Both of these effects need to be nerfed because it's stupid. Just like Atonement needs to be nerfed so that both Atonement and DA suffer.

    Quit crying Blizzard is fixing something before it gets too out of hand.

  14. #254
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post

    Tbh I wish they'd remove SS from disc (while keeping the current model of mastery / Da), and IH from paladins, at the moment those two are pillars in any strong healing setup, and also rework shaman mastery to grant a direct boost to their healing, or at least have more high-consistent damage so their current one isn't so weak.
    What new mastery would you suggest for a holy paladin then? without making it a hash of another healers mastery. Also the shaman mastery is fine as it is, it doesn't need changing, the problem with shamans in 10man isn't their mastery, but people gauge a classes viability through topping meters so.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    What new mastery would you suggest for a holy paladin then? without making it a hash of another healers mastery. Also the shaman mastery is fine as it is, it doesn't need changing, the problem with shamans in 10man isn't their mastery, but people gauge a classes viability through topping meters so.
    Increases healing done by Holy Power spells by x% and increases the healing done by Beacon of Light by x%?

  16. #256
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    B) Just because Paladins are not dominating has no relevance to an issue regarding their Mastery. Their Mastery is too strong, that is a fact and it needs to be nerfed (and it is so it seems Blizzard agrees).

    Quit crying Blizzard is fixing something before it gets too out of hand.
    As far as I can see throughout this thread, its you who is crying realistically, we aren't moaning, you are. Another thing, out of all the healing classes, we are the only ones were you can see what % of your healing is through your mastery, every other classes is baked into their spells so its practically invisible. How do you know your mastery doesn't buff your healing by 20-30%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Increases healing done by Holy Power spells by x% and increases the healing done by Beacon of Light by x%?
    You'd then just moan that EF has too high of an output, the beacon one would be stupid as its already 50% overhealing at best, with something like that it would be closer to 70%

    EDIT: I forgot that a monks mastery shows up under "Gift of the Serpent", but even then monks don't go anywhere near their mastery hence why it has such a small showing
    Last edited by Kyuuseishu; 2013-04-25 at 12:12 PM.

  17. #257
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post

    Quit crying Blizzard is fixing something before it gets too out of hand.
    You don't know how to read if you think I am crying about the nerfs. I knew mastery and t14 nerfs were incoming. The majority of people in this thread did and are not even crying about them. But people like you come into this thread posting the same crap over and over and basically cry about how paladins are OP, completely dominating healing and that the incoming nerfs are not enough. Seriously it makes you look pathetic, like you have a vendetta to get other classes nerfed so your class can be on top.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    A) I didn't say MWs need a boost. In fact they need a nerf somewhere. Mana Tea perhaps? The amount of spirit you need as a MW regions in the 5-6k~ with the legendary meta, it's pretty ridiculous.

    B) Just because Paladins are not dominating has no relevance to an issue regarding their Mastery. Their Mastery is too strong, that is a fact and it needs to be nerfed (and it is so it seems Blizzard agrees).

    C) I agree with Paladins are not in the state of 5.0 MWs or 5.1 Discs, but see B.

    As I said, I think anything which can do 30-40%~ of your healing and requires basically 0 input (Illuminated Healing is not thought based, it's just an effect that happens when you use spells) needs to be nerfed. Renewing Mists is often 20-30% of a MWs healing, with Uplift being a further 20-40%. Both of these effects need to be nerfed because it's stupid. Just like Atonement needs to be nerfed so that both Atonement and DA suffer.

    Quit crying Blizzard is fixing something before it gets too out of hand.
    Paladin needs a revamp, not the nerf. It does not help anyone to nerf IH. In fact it does only hurt a class which is not overpowered as another healing classes mentioned above. The problem with IH is that it's visible on healing meters. If it wouldn't be visible as separate heal no one would even think about crying to nerf it. Following your logic, if shaman's mastery is making up for more than 30% of his healing, it should be nerfed? But no one can say it, because their mastery is connected with healing done of each single healing spell and so it's not the pain in ass for someone.
    With IH nerf as only change of our class we will only fall more behind. And how this is better? You will feel better because someone can't even dream about overheating you? I don't get it, people. You all learn Blizzard to make such failed revamps.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-25 at 11:46 AM ----------

    Are you serious? If IH makes for 30-40% of our healing you would need to boost by mastery our LoD and EF by at least for 30% and this would be extremely unbalanced. And Beacon ... Really? It's mostly overheal. I remember that it makes for like 10% of my healing.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Increases healing done by Holy Power spells by x% and increases the healing done by Beacon of Light by x%?
    You are talking about something that currently accounts for up to 40% of a paladins healing. If you dont want absorps you need to give us something that increases our overall healing by up to 40%. Increased healing by holy power spells would have to be arround 200% or increase beacon healing by 1000%. Yea no its not going to happen.
    Last edited by Pacer; 2013-04-25 at 12:13 PM.

  20. #260
    If Blizzard is going to nerf mastery and t14 as they are planning to, they should consider some other changes as well such as changing the t15 4set bonus or let beacon benefit from mastery (perhaps at a lower value) so this way even tier15 bonus would make sense and would scale with anything and the beacon overhealing woulnd't be so stupid anymore.

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