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  1. #321
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    It doesnt matter how many EFs you can roll on people as long as EF>LoD. Eternal Flame would be balanced if it did 500 million healing as long as LoD did more than 500 million healing. A single target heal should never do more healing than an aoe heal.
    The only reason it "beats" it is because of the HoT mechanic and also the target limit that LoD is restricted to. If you're rolling EF on 7 people its going to do more healing than LoD. But without the 4 set it is harder to keep this up outside of CD's effectively, the other problem is unless it is consistent raid damage a lot of it is just going to overheal so what do we do? we EF instead of waste healing LoD'ing.

    I personally LoD during AoE phases not EF, but during phases where maybe 1 or 2 are taking damage I'll EF them since LoD is a waste of healing.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    It doesnt matter how many EFs you can roll on people as long as EF>LoD. Eternal Flame would be balanced if it did 500 million healing as long as LoD did more than 500 million healing. A single target heal should never do more healing than an aoe heal.
    That just makes it an Execution Sentence vs the other 2 talents case. Aka never used unless healing a shining dragon with extra healing % done.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    It doesnt matter how many EFs you can roll on people as long as EF>LoD. Eternal Flame would be balanced if it did 500 million healing as long as LoD did more than 500 million healing. A single target heal should never do more healing than an aoe heal.
    I disagree in this case.

    I agree LoD > WoG but if we take EF we're taking a talent specifically to boost WoG. SS can do up to 10% total healing on a fight. It goes without saying that EF as a talent choice will outperform LoD. As it should. We're specifically boosting it with a talent.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    It doesnt matter how many EFs you can roll on people as long as EF>LoD. Eternal Flame would be balanced if it did 500 million healing as long as LoD did more than 500 million healing. A single target heal should never do more healing than an aoe heal.
    Right now they're in a good spot to be fair, LoD is useful for making sure people survive burst aoe (and is our only form of spread AoE) and EF is what we use when the other healers can cover us for that part, the problem is when you're never in the danger zone and just need maximum HPS, which a lot of current fights are for Paladins

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    That just makes it an Execution Sentence vs the other 2 talents case. Aka never used unless healing a shining dragon with extra healing % done.
    I agree but thats why I think they should just delete it and make a new useful talent (and maybe make a nerfed version of EF baseline for holy).

    Asuming you are the real Aladya, I have seen your logs, dont you find it rediculous that you never use LoD?

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Asuming you are the real Aladya, I have seen your logs, dont you find it rediculous that you never use LoD?
    Not really, it uses the exact same resources as EF. I also sometimes(rarely) use LoD so saying never isn't quite correct.
    There is also the counter that if LoD+SS >EF , then you (almost) never use WoG either. I could do a LoS+SS run next reset for a few bosses.

    I find it a lot more ridiculous how little aoe spells like Holy Radiance+SCK heal in aoe situations, but that's another discussion.
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-04-28 at 01:52 PM.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    I find it a lot more ridiculous how little aoe spells like Holy Radiance+SCK heal in aoe situations, but that's another discussion.
    SCK actually heals quite a bit when you're healing purely melee. It's around 5k~ hps per melee target, reduced to around 2k~ hps if everyone is grouped up. If you're looking at Dark Animus or Iron Qon you can see SCK being a really big contributor to the MWs overall healing because the SCK will be primarily healing melee. I agree with you though that these spells, given their cost, should heal a bit more, or be designed as such so that they can see some moderate usage when used for 5-8~ people. You also need to remember that these spells contribute to an overarching spell that costs HP or Chi, both of which are extremely powerful (arguably Uplift is a lot stronger than EF given you only need 2 chi (vs 3 HP) to use it and it's AoE but that's ... another story).

  8. #328
    Stood in the Fire Yzyz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Heres some of the things I think they should do to "fix" holy paladins:
    1. Remove EF
    They would obviously add another talent and that talent should be as good as SS and not EF.
    Wait what? You want to remove our 1 HoT talent? Our 1 talent that makes us relatively competitive? Our 1 talent that makes us something more then just a tank healer? No thank you sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    2. Buff LoD by 20%
    To make it heal slightly less than current EF does, it might need to be buffed more or less, I dont know the exact number.
    Agreed. LoD is too weak in its current state. Could use a flat buff in healing or raise the number of people it can heal by 1 or 2.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    5. Make Selfless healer proc off crusader strike instead of judgement for holy paladins
    Obviously to make selfless healer worth taking for holy paladins.
    Still wouldn't take it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    6. Make holy paladin melee attacks and swings 40 yards range
    So why turn holy paladins into melee machines? Because atm it almost seems like we are balanced arround being in melee atleast for some duration of any given fight. Personally I really hate having to dancing arround like a maniac on Dark Animus heroic or having to run from one add to another on primordius. I feel like I spend too much of my energy trying to be in melee, yes it always works out and I do more healing because of it but it is so damn annoying. If we compare shamans with paladins all they have to do is stand still and spam lightning bolt, but of couse theirs regenerate less mana.
    I don't know about you but if you are struggling so much to be in melee and you are running around like a maniac, but wouldn't you find yourself healing more if you just stood still? I never feel the absolute need to be in melee so I can auto attack. I'm almost always casting. If I am there, great. More times then not though, I am with ranged. Do you really rely that heavily on Seal of Insight mana return? I guess you could argue Crusader Strike for HoPo generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    8. Have HS cd scale with haste
    This is obviously to make haste more attractive for holy paladins, if we stacked some haste we would also be doing less mastery healing.
    Maybe but doubtful.

    Why exactly is EF broken? Because it makes up for a large percentage of our healing? So what? It adds diversity and flexibility if you ask me. It fills the gap that Pallys have been missing. I don't know about you but I do not want to go back to being 100% tank healers that spam Diving Light or Flash of Light. I prefer to be a little bit of everything. Not only can I keep a tank alive but I can also be useful in a high raid damage situation instead of being completely useless. So, could you please give a good explanation as to why EF is broken? I fail to see a fair argument.

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  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzyz View Post
    Wait what? You want to remove our 1 HoT talent? Our 1 talent that makes us relatively competitive? Our 1 talent that makes us something more then just a tank healer? No thank you sir.
    EF isn't the only reason we're competitive. You could take EF out of our toolkit and we'd still be competitive. I think we'd all rather they didn't because it adds a different playstyle and strategy but we wouldn't suddenly be bad without it.

    Why exactly is EF broken? Because it makes up for a large percentage of our healing? So what? It adds diversity and flexibility if you ask me. It fills the gap that Pallys have been missing. I don't know about you but I do not want to go back to being 100% tank healers that spam Diving Light or Flash of Light. I prefer to be a little bit of everything. Not only can I keep a tank alive but I can also be useful in a high raid damage situation instead of being completely useless. So, could you please give a good explanation as to why EF is broken? I fail to see a fair argument.
    Firstly, I think looking at % heals is misleading for EF. Half of that is essentially WoG. It's easy for people to look at EF% (which tbf is generally below 30%, ie not that high anyway) and think it's all hot but it isn't. It's really WoG + EF hot.

    Secondly I don't think the issue that is cropping up is just the hot itself, but the way it allows us to roll mastery shields.

    Either way, they're making a mountain out of a molehill on this one. Losing the T14 and a chunk of mastery will be more than enough to bring us down.

  10. #330
    I have 2p T15, the legendary metagem, almost full heroic with considerable number of Thunderforged items (http://us.battle.net/wow/es/characte...4gnus/advanced). My only downfall, shitty trinkets and rings. I tested this set up on today's Lei Shen kill (normal QQ). I was able to easily sustain the HR x2 +HS rotation even without mana tides. What I'm trying to say, is that losing the 4 set bonus of T14 isn't that bad at all. With my setup, the other pally healer in my guild that still uses 4p T14 still comes above me on meters, but this might be that hes a better healer than me, so I don't know for how much this setup heals in optimal conditions. Sadly, I don't have any logs for that fight.

    If I can get two more pieces of T15, I'll do more tests and hopefully, get some logs to compare, but I'm eager to see for how much are they nerfing us and for how much Daybreak will heal.
    Last edited by Aquilesmagno; 2013-04-30 at 03:33 AM.
    IM TEH RET! er... teh holy... or it was teh prot?!
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  11. #331
    No one has disputed that in your level of gear the nerf will not hit that hard, but we basically have to go from T14 > Legendary Meta to keep any semblance of throughput compared to what we can get from just T14

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilesmagno View Post
    I have 2p T15, the legendary metagem, almost full heroic with considerable number of Thunderforged items (http://us.battle.net/wow/es/characte...4gnus/advanced). My only downfall, shitty trinkets and rings. I tested this set up on today's Lei Shen kill (normal QQ). I was able to easily sustain the HR x2 +HS rotation even without mana tides. What I'm trying to say, is that losing the 4 set bonus of T14 isn't that bad at all. With my setup, the other pally healer in my guild that still uses 4p T14 still comes above me on meters, but this might be that hes a better healer than me, so I don't know for how much this setup heals in optimal conditions. Sadly, I don't have any logs for that fight.

    If I can get two more pieces of T15, I'll do more tests and hopefully, get some logs to compare, but I'm eager to see for how much are they nerfing us and for how much Daybreak will heal.
    Just that it´s currently ineffective to heal HR>HR> HS; therefore it is pretty obvious, that you re below Ef blanketing Paladins, not to Forget the fight circumstances of LS.
    The nerf is detailed already, it results in an Overall healing decrease of 6-7%.
    Same goes for the Change to Daybreak75%/150%; with 4cpT15= 112.5%/225%, no Bacon, Counts as aoe.
    So the 4set is for the Daybreak Change without a benefit. Holy Shock Counts, if I am not mistaken, based on GC´s Twitter comment, if casted with Daybreak as an aoe heal (15%/18% with 4set), but Daybreak will not be transfered ith Bacon.
    I am quite convinced, even without testing it, that the HR>HR>HS is quite doable mana wise, but with the additional changes to Daybreak it remains to me as well being a nerf and not a buff.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 03:09 PM ----------

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 03:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Firstly, I think looking at % heals is misleading for EF. Half of that is essentially WoG. It's easy for people to look at EF% (which tbf is generally below 30%, ie not that high anyway) and think it's all hot but it isn't. It's really WoG + EF hot.
    Disagree. Most haling done by EF isn´t the WoG part, it is the EF HoT. Simple math. random, but quite correct numbers I ´d say:
    3 HP EF: Initial heal (equal to WoG) for 80k. HoT ticking every 2.5 secs in total 13 times healing for 18k a tick heals for a total of 234k., ergo 154 more than the base heal (don´t nail me now on if it is actually even a 14th tick).
    In overhealing it is pretty much the same, the majority of the overhealing is done by the tick, therefore the EF.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Secondly I don't think the issue that is cropping up is just the hot itself, but the way it allows us to roll mastery shields.
    Exactly. This is, what makes EF so powerful and by far (sadly imo) more powwerful than LoD, cause as someone above said it: A single target (using the same amount of resource/mana) heal shouldn´t heal more than an AoE heal. Simple as.
    Last edited by Medario; 2013-04-30 at 03:12 PM.

  13. #333
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medario View Post
    Just that it´s currently ineffective to heal HR>HR> HS; therefore it is pretty obvious, that you re below Ef blanketing Paladins, not to Forget
    The nerf is detailed already, it results in an Overall healing decrease of 6-7%.


    Disagree. Most haling done by EF isn´t the WoG part, it is the EF HoT. Simple math. random, but quite correct numbers I ´d say:
    3 HP EF: Initial heal (equal to WoG) for 80k. HoT ticking every 2.5 secs in total 13 times healing for 18k a tick heals for a total of 234k., ergo 154 more than the base heal (don´t nail me now on if it is actually even a 14th tick).
    In overhealing it is pretty much the same, the majority of the overhealing is done by the tick, therefore the EF.
    Just a few small responses

    1) That % decrease is only factoring in the mastery change, the change to 4 set doesn't exactly have a definitive value

    2) What EF's are you using to get 18k ticks :P, I'd expect that on yourself but on someone else, Im rolling about 36k Spellpower in raids with 10-11k ticks

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    Just a few small responses

    1) That % decrease is only factoring in the mastery change, the change to 4 set doesn't exactly have a definitive value

    2) What EF's are you using to get 18k ticks :P, I'd expect that on yourself but on someone else, Im rolling about 36k Spellpower in raids with 10-11k ticks
    A gear set as the 4set isn´t anything I value like a spell, it Comes and goes, simple as. Yes, it ´s that good, that I Keep it till 5.3, but I don´t consider it worthy to calculate a loss of healing in % etc.

    Yep, my bad, used the casted ion myselfnumbers. DOH. so lets take 9k ticks. lowers it to 117k.
    Anyway, most important about the tick, as it ´s being a lot overhealing anyway is keeping the mastery shield on the target active and the Bacon Transfer to the tank.

  15. #335
    I'm glad that they are nerfing T14, hope we can kill DA and LS before next patch tho (currently 10/13). I know that the nerf is already calculated, but I want to SEE it. I think that the daybreak buff will be very useful, maybe it needs a range increase too. Overall, with the new set bonuses we will be still competitive and have the capability to crush meters (not that meters matter). This is the best version of holy pally so far
    IM TEH RET! er... teh holy... or it was teh prot?!
    This bro told a cool story on 2009-12-03 and proudly took part in the banfest.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquilesmagno View Post
    I'm glad that they are nerfing T14, hope we can kill DA and LS before next patch tho (currently 10/13). I know that the nerf is already calculated, but I want to SEE it. I think that the daybreak buff will be very useful, maybe it needs a range increase too. Overall, with the new set bonuses we will be still competitive and have the capability to crush meters (not that meters matter). This is the best version of holy pally so far
    I wouldn´t mind a range increase for HR, though I´d be happier with a range increase to 40 Yards and a buff in healing Output and more Targets even with diminishing Returns for LoD; it´s to weak

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Not really, it uses the exact same resources as EF. I also sometimes(rarely) use LoD so saying never isn't quite correct.
    There is also the counter that if LoD+SS >EF , then you (almost) never use WoG either. I could do a LoD+SS run next reset for a few bosses.
    To followup on this i tried it on the first 5 bosses this reset. My Sacred Shield uptime was slightly lower then I would of wanted it on most bosses as i haven't played with it for some time. The numbers are a lot higher then I expected considering the healing complexity is rly low.
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-05-02 at 11:34 PM.

  18. #338
    Looks like 5.4 will see some attention to EF.

  19. #339
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Looks like 5.4 will see some attention to EF.
    Aren't you just a mistweaver jumping with joy.

    Either way, I think EF is good but out of place. Right now, we have a 3rd tier row that consists of a proactive single-target heal (Sacred Shield) and a reactive single-target heal (Selfless Healer). Eternal Flame for prot/ret is serving the purpose (or rather not really serving any purpose at all) of a single-target HoT that is somewhere in the middle, but for Holy, it's a bit more than "single-target"

    Take it away from prot/ret, make the HoT baseline with the 15% Beacon Transfer (similar to all AoE healing abilities), and replace it with another single-target ability. Personally, I think a good addition would be a random single-target heal; for instance, perhaps a proc that will trigger a smart heal. Perhaps base it off of Holy Power generation and usage (and make selfless healer work this way too), that way it's useful for all specs.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-04 at 10:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    To followup on this i tried it on the first 5 bosses this reset. My Sacred Shield uptime was slightly lower then I would of wanted it on most bosses as i haven't played with it for some time. The numbers are a lot higher then I expected considering the healing complexity is rly low.
    As numbers being high: I'm really not that surprised, even looking at high-ranking logs I currently see a mixture of primarily reactive (LoD) healing, proactive EF blanketing, and logs containing a mixture of both. So the actual difference between using the two abilities isn't really as big as some doomsayers like to say.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-05-04 at 10:26 AM.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Aren't you just a mistweaver jumping with joy.

    Either way, I think EF is good but out of place. Right now, we have a 3rd tier row that consists of a proactive single-target heal (Sacred Shield) and a reactive single-target heal (Selfless Healer). Eternal Flame for prot/ret is serving the purpose (or rather not really serving any purpose at all) of a single-target HoT that is somewhere in the middle, but for Holy, it's a bit more than "single-target"
    EF needs to be nerfed though, so if it went baseline it would take some very, very heavy nerfs.

    As a MW I really don't mind it. In 5.4 MWs will see nerfs too, so I'm not exactly "jumping for joy".

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